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Old 03-22-2012, 21:09   #151
Deaf Smith
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While six should do if you are a expert shot under fire keep this in mind.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/18Feb12.html

And Gen. Brant closed that chapter of his memoirs saying, "... and I learned that afternoon that it's an entirely different matter shooting at a man, than at a paper target!"

Remember that. For you see even Wild Bill carried TWO revolvers. So did J.W. Hardin.

And Jim Cirillo carried THREE!

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Old 03-22-2012, 21:55   #152
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What I find intriguing is the 9mm Silvertip being blamed for failing. So we got first the 10mm, then the 40 S&W. We wanted as many rounds as we could put in our hands without reloading. Now I am noticing a small trend going back to 9mm. And the topic of this thread asking if six rounds is enough.
Going to 9mm may be due to the lower cost involved as well as the better shooting characteristics for the entire force that today includes a lot more female officers than 25 years ago. That said, from what I've read the real failing in the Miami incident was tactics but with bureaucracies sometimes a scapegoat is required, and perhaps the 9mm caliber/Silvertip was one of several that were picked.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:05   #153
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A bigger wound channel will help.

More wound channels will help.

Caliber choice, in many ways, affects the two above.
A slightly bigger hole means slightly more blood loss.

OK

But how much difference???? Does a person drop dead from blood loss after 2 min from a 45 and 2min 29 seconds from a 9mm??

It really makes no difference anyway because in both cases the perp will have plenty of time to fire all of his shots if your plan is to wait for someone to bleed out and they are determined to keep fighting.

You either get a CNS hit, run away/evade or be able to continue to shoot the person more than they can shoot you.

Last edited by High Altitude; 03-23-2012 at 01:13..
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:26   #154
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Originally Posted by High Altitude View Post
A slightly bigger hole means slightly more blood loss.

OK

But how much difference???? Does a person drop dead from blood loss after 2 min from a 45 and 2min 29 seconds from a 9mm??

It really makes no difference anyway because in both cases the perp will have plenty of time to fire all of his shots if your plan is to wait for someone to bleed out and they are determined to keep fighting.

You either get a CNS hit, run away/evade or be able to continue to shoot the person more than they can shoot you.

It really could make a difference.

I have Glocks in 9 and .45. I carry both. I spend a lot more time carrying the 9. It's fine. And it has plenty of advantages. But to argue that, all else equal, a larger wound channel "makes no difference" is silly.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:48   #155
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It really could make a difference.

I have Glocks in 9 and .45. I carry both. I spend a lot more time carrying the 9. It's fine. And it has plenty of advantages. But to argue that, all else equal, a larger wound channel "makes no difference" is silly.
OK, the perp has 18 rounds of ammunition in his glock 17.

Do you really think a person is going to bleed out from non CNS hits before they can pull the trigger 18 times???????

Are you going to be telling yourself, good thing that wound channel was slightly larger and the perp was only able to fire 13 rounds, if it was a 9mm he would of fired all 18.

With either round that person will have plenty of time to shoot all their ammo if they so choose.

So, will he die from a slightly larger wound channel in the end, most likely, does it have any bearing during the actual shooting part of the gun fight, not likely.

Last edited by High Altitude; 03-23-2012 at 10:54..
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:49   #156
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If I cannot change someone's channel with (6) shots, I know I can run a mile in eight minutes.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:54   #157
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Originally Posted by High Altitude View Post
With either round that person will have plenty of time to shoot all their ammo if they so choose.
So...you are guaranteeing me that a person shot by a service caliber handgun, not CNS, WILL, absolutely, every time, have plenty of time to shoot all of their rounds?
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:00   #158
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So...you are guaranteeing me that a person shot by a service caliber handgun, not CNS, WILL, absolutely, every time, have plenty of time to shoot all of their rounds?
Yup, if the person makes that choice to keep firing, they will not be dead in the next 20 seconds and will have plenty of time.

Last edited by High Altitude; 03-23-2012 at 11:02..
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:03   #159
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Yup, if the person makes that choice to keep firing, they will not be dead in the next 20 seconds and will have plenty of time.
That's a pretty bold statement.

Especially since they don't have to be "dead" in order to be incapacitated.

So what will you say if I find even one verifiable event where a person was shot by a pistol, not to the CNS, and went down/out in less than 20 seconds?
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:12   #160
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That's a pretty bold statement.

Especially since they don't have to be "dead" in order to be incapacitated.

So what will you say if I find even one verifiable event where a person was shot by a pistol, not to the CNS, and went down/out in less than 20 seconds?
Lots of guys do down from non CNS hits.

They go down because of fear (OMG!!! I have been shot), they go down because of pain (that hurts, please don't shoot me any more), they go down because they give up (I don't want to die!!!), they run away etc.....

But if they make the choice to stay in the fight, then nothing is preventing them from still firing unless their hands no longer function.

If after being shot a couple times and a person is still in the fight, more pain is simply not going to help because the person is no longer going to feel it. They have made the decision that what ever they are feeling doesn't matter, plus shock takes over.

So you have a few choices: Run, get that CNS shot, or be able to outlast your opponent. Usually that means whoever runs out of bullets first, starts to get shot or runs first.

Last edited by High Altitude; 03-23-2012 at 11:22..
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:24   #161
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It's actually 6+1, so its 7.
I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. And it is seven rounds of a cartridge that has over 100 years of proven effectiveness - I would bet my life on seven rounds of .45ACP JHP cartidges.

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Old 03-23-2012, 11:25   #162
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Lots of guys do down from non CNS hits.

They go down because of fear (OMG!!! I have been shot), they go down because of pain (that hurts, please don't shoot me any more), they go down because they give up (I don't want to die!!!), they run away etc.....

But if they make the choice to stay in the fight, then nothing is preventing them from still firing unless their hands no longer function.

If after being shot a couple times and a person is still in the fight, more pain is simply not going to help because the person is no longer going to feel it. They have made the decision that what ever they are feeling doesn't matter, plus shock takes over.

So you have a few choices: Run, get that CNS shot, or be able to outlast your opponent. Usually that means whoever runs out of bullets first, starts to get shot or runs first.
People can be incapacitated/relieved of their ability to continue attacking by more than simply pain/fear compliance or knocking out their CNS. Sufficient blood loss, for example, can also force the attack to cease.

I suggest that you have a lot more reading to do.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:29   #163
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People can be incapacitated/relieved of their ability to continue attacking by more than simply pain/fear compliance or knocking out their CNS. Sufficient blood loss, for example, can also force the attack to cease.

I suggest that you have a lot more reading to do.
Of course sufficient blood loss will enventually stop some one, but not fast enough.

You will be able to empty your gun if you so choose before you bleed out. Guys with enough ammunition have stayed in the fight for minutes while bleeding out.

So once again, if a guy can empty his gun while bleeding out, does it really matter how quick he eventually has to stop due to blood loss after he runs out of ammo?

Last edited by High Altitude; 03-23-2012 at 11:36..
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:44   #164
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Of course sufficient blood loss will enventually stop some one, but not fast enough.

You will be able to empty your gun if you so choose before you bleed out. Guys with enough ammunition have stayed in the fight for minutes while bleeding out.

So once again, if a guy can empty his gun while bleeding out, does it really matter how quick he eventually has to stop due to blood loss after he runs out of ammo?
If you want to ask any actual questions, not statements written with a ? at the end, let me know.
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Old 03-23-2012, 17:46   #165
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I had a 36, but now have a 30SF. Love it and size and weight does not matter to me. The 30 carries well IWB and I'd rather have the 11 rounds too.
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Old 03-23-2012, 18:03   #166
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If you want to ask any actual questions, not statements written with a ? at the end, let me know.
Just throwing out my opinions based on my experience and study.

Agree to disagree etc..........

Now I am off to go clean my new gen4 34........
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Old 03-23-2012, 21:41   #167
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Originally Posted by RYT 2BER View Post
Heres an even better idea.. I'll carry my g23 with the same 14 rounds and I don't have to ask the attacker to stop and give me a minute to go rifling through my wife's purse.
if it's an "attacker" she wont need my help
and it's not coming from a purse

PS - the 442 is her backup...
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:59   #168
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Six rounds were enough for Colt SAA carriers for close to 100 years. But those were 255gr .45 bullets. This is why my next gun will be my second Glock - a G36 - with seven rounds of .45 ACP to take care of 99% of the shooting sitiuations. I'll carry my bowling pin shooting load - a 255gr LSWC bullet at 800 FPS (Power Factor 205 out of the G36).
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Old 03-24-2012, 18:22   #169
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Six rounds were enough for Colt SAA carriers for close to 100 years. But those were 255gr .45 bullets. This is why my next gun will be my second Glock - a G36 - with seven rounds of .45 ACP to take care of 99% of the shooting sitiuations. I'll carry my bowling pin shooting load - a 255gr LSWC bullet at 800 FPS (Power Factor 205 out of the G36).
Unless you have some means of finding out what proportion of those SAA carriers died because they only had 6, or 5, rounds available to them, your statement makes no sense.

The simple fact was that they did not have any better choice. Many carried two SAA Colts and one or two 2 shot Derringers because they did not think that 6 rounds was enough.

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Old 03-24-2012, 18:50   #170
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The reason why I purchased a new 30SF......10+1 is some Serious Business.
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Old 03-24-2012, 18:59   #171
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Practice and shot placement are the ONLY thing that truly matters. You can either have good shot placement or not. Who was it that said to fear the man with only one gun (because he knows how to shoot it)??

I personally prefer my G29. No, I can't shoot it fast. But I don't need to. I can shoot it well.

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Old 03-26-2012, 12:20   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad55102 View Post
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?
It is.




















































Until it isn't.

Besides the main reason for carrying an extra magazine is because the one in the pipe might fail.....
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Old 03-27-2012, 22:26   #173
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Well I carry a Kimber ultra sometimes and sometimes I carry my Body Guard 38 Spl. and its a 5 rounder. I never feel under powered I carry a spare mag in a mag pouch just in case but I always train and practice double tap Torso and 1 head. I am looking to get into a shootout with someone and I am not saying that would not happen cause it very well could all I am saying is I am not going to skin my iron till I have to and it's going to be CQB God forbid I ever have to but I try to stay prepared to do so.
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Old 03-27-2012, 23:50   #174
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Just for me personally I choose more rounds than less, and if I have to downgrade calibers (to a point) then I will do as I see fit. We watched a video today in our academy of a officer who shot a man point blank just above the naval with a .45 ACP and he continued to try and stab the officer for over 10 minutes until he was arrested. But then you have George Zimmerman who only needed one round of 9mm to the chest to kill Martin...so it's really never known how many is enough so I will take as many rounds as possible.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:46   #175
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For ccw, sure. You're far more likely to need your cellphone than a round. That said, if it's going to nag at you, stress you out, from a psychological perspective, go with something different.
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im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?
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