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Old 03-04-2012, 05:48   #121
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Originally Posted by matthew.s View Post
This is what my CCW instructor told me about the number of rounds you carry in a self defense weapon, when I asked him the same question.

"If you need more than 7 rounds of .45 ACP in a typical street confrontations or in a home defense scenario, then you aren't in a self defense scenario, you're in a war, and you can't guarantee your safety, so get your ass out of there."....
It is amazing what nonsense some instructors can talk and how many people repeat this idea.

If someone is trying to kill you in a non war environment, why would anyone think they are going to stop trying because you are running away? Bullets are faster than running and BGs can run after you with plenty of rounds left in their double stack 9s.

Of course the majority of self defense fire fights don't take more than 4 or 5 rounds (GGs don't soot BGs when they are running away), but some do.

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Old 03-04-2012, 08:47   #122
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I'll say what I always say on the subjects..

IMO yes lesser rounds is probably enough.. but I'd certainly rather more.. the mystique of .45 isn't worth the capacity limitations to me (honestly I don't think it should be for others).

I don't believe .45 is going to ballistically more impressive than .40 for example so I'd rather have more rounds. Actually I never carry 9mm but I would over .45 for the extra capacity any day...

But again its a personal preference.... we all know that 2-3 rounds is probably enough for real world SD but I just feel that more is better when the opportunity is there...
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:02   #123
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You'll never know if you've brought "enough" rounds, until the encounter is finished. The sidearms that I prefer to carry generally hold more than 6 rounds, but there have been a few times when I dashed out the door with a J-frame in my jacket pocket. If you pick a sidearm with which you can do well, and practice with it, and then carry it as often as you can, then you're doing so much more than most ever will, and hopefully more than you will ever need. Just do your best, whatever happens.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:48   #124
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After having "been there, done that" I can say that it does NOT matter how many rounds you are carrying-it will NEVER seem like you have enough ammo.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:43   #125
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Merkavaboy, thanks very much for posting the link to that important story. I had not read it before. It was filled with so many good lessons that I took time to carefully summarize the 3-page story for my library of "teachable moments" involving firearms and self defense.

In hopes that more people will read and learn from the event, I include below my shortened summary of the story.
Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008

Photo gallery for the story


The report is a harrowing tale of a deadly daylight gunfight on 8/25/2008 between Officer Tim Gramins, a 14-year veteran of the Skokie, IL PD, and a black, male bank robbery suspect Raymond Maddox.
After calling for backup, Officer Gramins pursued Maddox in a car chase. The chase ended in a residential neighborhood when Maddox suddenly stopped, quickly exited his car and charged toward the patrol unit firing a Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm semi-auto pistol⁽⁾ at Gramins who was still seated in the stopped patrol car located only 15 ft away.

Officer Gramins drew his holstered Glock 21 .45 ACP pistol and returned fire. The two exchanged fire through the rapidly disintegrating windshield of the patrol car until, nearly simultaneously, Maddox’s S&W 9mm pistol jammed (failure to eject) and Gramins expended his primary magazine that had been loaded with 12 rounds⁽⁾ plus the one round he kept loaded in the chamber.

Maddox retreated to his car and ditched the 9mm pistol to retrieve a Bersa Blue Thunder .380 semi-auto pistol⁽⁾, while Officer Gramins exited the patrol car, knelt down at the front of the car and reloaded with his first spare mag loaded with 12 rounds.

The two began again to exchange gunfire as Officer Gramins quickly moved down the driver's side of his patrol car and around the rear to the passenger side to a position providing cover and a view forward. Having emptied his first spare mag, Gramins loaded his second spare mag containing 12 rounds. With the patrol car between them, the two men engaged in a deadly game of cat and mouse; one would rise and fire as the other ducked.

Maddox eventually stayed below view and Officer Gramins went prone to fire under the car in Maddox’s direction.

After some brief, ineffective point shooting by Officer Gramins that struck the tire and underside of the patrol car, Gramins paused and took careful aim at the head of Maddox who was crouched on the downslope of the opposite side of the street. Gramins fired a rapid, three-shot volley striking Maddox in the head three times and he went down, ending the fight immediately.

Maddox was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was pronounced dead. Except for a few cuts on the chin from flying debris, Officer Gramins was mentally and physically uninjured in the horrendous exchange and was released from the hospital the next day.

Later investigation revealed that Officer Gramins had only a total of 4 rounds remaining in the second spare magazine and chamber when the fight ended, thus he had fired a total of 33 rounds of 45ACP ammo (12+1, reload, 12, reload, 8). Of the 33 rounds fired, he hit Maddox a total of 17 times including the final three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen. Maddox had fired a total of 22 rounds from the 9mm and .380 pistols. The shootout lasted for over sixty seconds of sustained fire.

"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins said. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."

Gramins had a Glock 26 backup gun but never got to it. Investigators recovered an SKS rifle from Maddox's car trunk along with a magazine and 7.62 rounds. Fortunately, Maddox didn’t use this rifle in the exchange.

Officer Gramins partly credits SWAT training for coming out on top and his outside training, reading and study of the psychology and physiology of combat, together with his strong will to live stemming from a deep love for his son and desire to attend his son’s birthday party that night.

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Editor's Comments:

1. Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm pistol probably had a 15-rnd mag
2. Evidently it is Skokie, IL PD policy, or the personal preference of Officer Gramins, to load 12 rounds in the G21 standard 13-rd capacity mag
3. Bersa Blue Thunder .380 pistol probably had a 9-rnd mag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Nope.

This is why I decided never to carry a 45ACP pistol for SD long before I had ever seen this article.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

Even if I were a LEO I would want to carry a G17 loaded with Win Ranger 127SXT+P+.
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:46   #126
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Just got done listening to Tom Givens and Jim Higginbottam expound on this subject. Many, many cases of more than a few being needed.

Yep, they are not as typical as Mugger-be-gone where you just wave your gun around like a cross to Dracula. But not to have more rounds is flat out stupid as was the analysis of the law (Geez!).
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:53   #127
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Originally Posted by Brad55102 View Post
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?
The deadliest gunfighter I ever worked with (17 gunfights where the bad guy ended up dead in 50 years of law enforcement) carried at model 10 S & W and was only a mediocre shot.
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Old 03-05-2012, 00:15   #128
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Looks like 6 rounds should be just fine.

D

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...-findings.html
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:04   #129
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I remember hearing this incident. Training,shot placement and firepower won the fight. If a bad guy is determined to keep fighting after being hit. One well placed shot well end the fight if it connects the CNS or cranial brain stem. This is a good reason to carry a spare magazine.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:34   #130
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I remember hearing this incident. Training,shot placement and firepower won the fight. If a bad guy is determined to keep fighting after being hit. One well placed shot well end the fight if it connects the CNS or cranial brain stem. This is a good reason to carry a spare magazine.
At then end of the Miami gunfight, after over a hundred rounds fired, FBI agent Ed Mirales killed Platt and Matix with six rounds of .38 special +p from his S&W revolver.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:45   #131
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I remember hearing this incident. Training,shot placement and firepower won the fight. If a bad guy is determined to keep fighting after being hit. One well placed shot well end the fight if it connects the CNS or cranial brain stem. This is a good reason to carry a spare magazine.
Training and shot placement, certainly. I'm not so sure about firepower, though... it sounds like it was largely ineffective. From what I read, I got the impression that the fight wasn't won until the officer stopped with the spray and pray and focused on making good hits. Once that happened, he ended it with three good shots.
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Old 03-05-2012, 14:56   #132
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At then end of the Miami gunfight, after over a hundred rounds fired, FBI agent Ed Mirales killed Platt and Matix with six rounds of .38 special +p from his S&W revolver.

Only partially true:

William Matix: Died after being shot 6 times.
Michael Platt: Died after being shot 12 times.

3 FBI agents were armed with .357s shooting .38 +P. 39 rounds fired. 1 killed.
Other 3 agents armed with 9mm's. 43 rounds fired.
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Old 03-05-2012, 15:37   #133
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Originally Posted by mah77 View Post
Only partially true:

William Matix: Died after being shot 6 times.
Michael Platt: Died after being shot 12 times.

3 FBI agents were armed with .357s shooting .38 +P. 39 rounds fired. 1 killed.
Other 3 agents armed with 9mm's. 43 rounds fired.
Only partially true.

We do not know how many times Platt and Matix were shot. We only know how many projectiles were recovered from each. Mirales was using a shotgun initially.

There were 8 FBI agents on scene. Grogan and Dove were using S&W 9mm's. They were both killed. The other 6 were carrying revolvers.

We also know that no shots were fired after Mirales emptied his revolver.

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Old 03-05-2012, 16:14   #134
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Only partially true.

We do not know how many times Platt and Matix were shot. We only know how many projectiles were recovered from each. Mirales was using a shotgun initially.

There were 8 FBI agents on scene. Grogan and Dove were using S&W 9mm's. They were both killed. The other 6 were carrying revolvers.

We also know that no shots were fired after Mirales emptied his revolver.
I don't recall his name, but the only agent not wounded was also carrying a 9mm like Grogan & Dove. Also, I'm pretty sure one agent wasn't able to fight because he lost his gun in the initial car accident.
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Old 03-05-2012, 16:43   #135
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6 rounds is plenty capable against most people, but keep in mind, the more dynamic the situation, the worse your chances at making a good shot. Not trying to provoke a worst-case, but 6 rounds might not get you beyond a single attacker, if all you make are non-vital hits. That depends on the will power of the attacker, of course. You just don't know if you're up against a sissy baby attacker, or someone doped up on pain killers with altered mental status. You don't know that you'll be able to put down your Big Mac and fries calmly, draw, and fire one round to end the attack, or if you will expend 4 rounds into the brick wall behind the BG trying to shoot a moving target.

I refuse to walk around like a mobile armory, but also try to be practical about my carry choice. I can carry my G33 with 10+1, or a snubby 5-shot revolver with the same effort. Logic just puts the higher capacity on top. Furthermore, a G26 is easier to conceal than a G36, and also benefits from added capacity. As for training, you can shoot well with anything you practice with, so the argument of shooting one better than the other is moot. That's my argument.

Having said that, carry decisions are personal, so do what you feel is best.
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Old 03-05-2012, 20:34   #136
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I don't recall his name, but the only agent not wounded was also carrying a 9mm like Grogan & Dove. Also, I'm pretty sure one agent wasn't able to fight because he lost his gun in the initial car accident.
Ron Risner was the agent that did not get shot. Risner carried a revolver. Grogan and Dove were the only agents SWAT trained and the only ones authorized to carry semi auto handguns.

Risner was looking where he thought his revolver was. It was later recovered in the rocker panel of the car he was riding in.

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Old 03-05-2012, 20:40   #137
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Depends.

Today I carried only 5 rounds.

Generally I like to have 10 or more.
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Old 03-05-2012, 20:43   #138
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No disrespect intended - but another question with no answer. If one carried for 25 years and never had to use it, an empty gun would be "enough".

Everybody has to select their own comfort level - nobody else can determine that for you. My comfort level is a Sig P226 .40, two spare 13 round mags, an S&W M60 on my left side and a Speedstrip in my pocket.
Pretty much this ^

It boils down to your own risk assessment. If you believe there is an unacceptable risk of needing more rounds, then you should pick a gun with more rounds. If you believe there is an unacceptable risk of needing a spare magazine, then you should carry a spare mag.
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Old 03-05-2012, 20:46   #139
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Originally Posted by mah77 View Post
Only partially true:

William Matix: Died after being shot 6 times.
Michael Platt: Died after being shot 12 times.

3 FBI agents were armed with .357s shooting .38 +P. 39 rounds fired. 1 killed.
Other 3 agents armed with 9mm's. 43 rounds fired.
They were both alive and trying to escape when shot by Mirales. I was counting all of the rounds fired, not just the agent's rounds.

And, there were eight agents in the gunfight, with two killed.

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Old 03-05-2012, 20:52   #140
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Ron Risner was the agent that did not get shot. Risner carried a revolver. Grogan and Dove were the only agents SWAT trained and the only ones authorized to carry semi auto handguns.

Risner was looking where he thought his revolver was. It was later recovered in the rocker panel of the car he was riding in.
Risner had a 9mm and a .38 J frame. He didn't lose either gun.
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