[mah77]

Originally Posted by writwing

For those that need more than 6, what scenarios do you envision? A shoot out with one guy or a gang? I have read a number of posts where the author carries 2 extra 13 round mags. Does anyone really think they will use 42 rounds? Do you realize what the press might do to you if they find out that you were packing so heavy?

I agree. If someone does want to carry that much ammo, its their choice. Ive seen peoples explanation of extensive amounts of ammo vary across the board. Ranging from mall shootings, to campus shootings, to an entire gang trying to carjack you. These scenerios are crazy. CCW holders arent cowboys, heroes, or law enforcement.

If your in a mall or on a campus where some crazed nut is blasting away, take cover or leave. Unless he's directly in front of you, shooting at you, you have NO legal standing to engage. Lets put a spin on this scenerio. What if you decide to start shooting back when police arrive? In their eyes, theyre going to see 2 people in plain clothes spraying lead. Most likely, your both going to be dead.

As far as a group of individuals trying to carjack you, do you really think youll be able to shoot multiple people dead before one of them has a chance to kill you? Thats in the movies, not real life. Choose your battles wisely. Besides, let em have your vehicle, thats what insurance is for. Always be aware of your surroundings.

This is what aggravates me about the freaking internet. Everyone "claims" to be a CCW holder, and claims to know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy that "heard". In reality, you dont know if the person posting a thread or comment is 12 years old. Im not claiming to be perfect, but Ill admit when Im wrong.

The smartest weapon is your brain. A handgun is THE LAST resort. If you arent smart enough to assess whether to draw a weapon, you dont deserve a CCW, and you'll give the rest of the holders a bad rap.

A gun in a CCW scenerio is to protect YOU and your immediate family. Its not to protect your buddy or other civilians. The majority of states have it in their law that if your over 7 yards away, its no longer "self-defense", its MURDER.

Be smart, be aware of your surroundings, and keep your booger finger of the boom switch until your ready to shoot.

[BrewerGeorge]

Originally Posted by mah77

... The majority of states have it in their law that if your over 7 yards away, its no longer "self-defense", its MURDER.
....

I was kinda following you until this. Where'd you get that idea?

[Lampshade]

Originally Posted by mah77

If your in a mall or on a campus where some crazed nut is blasting away, take cover or leave. Unless he's directly in front of you, shooting at you, you have NO legal standing to engage.

That is false. Many states have laws allowing for the use of lethal force in defense of others.

I don't know where you get the idea that someone needs to be "directly in front of you" to be a threat.

Originally Posted by mah77

A gun in a CCW scenerio is to protect YOU and your immediate family.
Its not to protect your buddy or other civilians.

That is one philosophy, it is certainly not the only one and it is certainly not a hard and fast rule.

Originally Posted by mah77

The majority of states have it in their law that if your over 7 yards away, its no longer "self-defense", its MURDER.

Also completely false.

[ScottieG59]

How many rounds to carry is determined by your comfort level. For me, I carry at least two extra magazines.

If you find yourself needing to use your weapon, you might wish you had more ammo. You might also wish you had an extra weapon, an armored vehicle, a personally assigned armed security detail, etc.

I have never had to deplete my ammo. I figure if two extra magazines is good for the police, I should not expect less for me.

[Hedo1]

It usually is plenty. But when you need more you really need more in a bad way!

It's kind of like 4 wheel drive in my truck. I don't use it often but when I do I really need it.

[mah77]

Originally Posted by Lampshade

.....

I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

[unit1069]

Originally Posted by mah77

I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

I doubt society would look favorably upon any of us who stood by and allowed Mr. Mallshooter to gun down innocent people when we might have prevented it. I'm not a lawyer and I understand a CCW holder must be sure of the situation, but I certainly wouldn't want to be the poster child for legal CCW who stood by when I could have saved others.

[RussP]

Originally Posted by mah77

I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

Is that true in all 50 states?

[Fragman]

Originally Posted by mah77

I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

Ability, opportunity and intent to cause grave physical harm to you OR others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lampshade]

Originally Posted by mah77

While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

You are continuing to speak too matter of factly.

A person with a firearm, for instance, can clearly pose a lethal threat from more than 7 yards away.

Originally Posted by mah77

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

Or others. Or to stop a rape, or a kidnapping. In some cases it can be any forcible felony, in others, mere mischief during the nightime. It all depends on the specific statutes where you are.

Originally Posted by mah77

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution.

Depends where you are.

Originally Posted by mah77

If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

Depends where you are.

[Gtoboi65]

Wow this thread has jumped all over the place and the OP hasn't even had a chance to chime back in. Despite all of the caliber debates and how many extra mags you need to carry there is a lot of great information here. I am surprised the G30/G36 or otherwise known as the G66 hybrid didn't get thrown in to the loop.

Back to you Brad55102, you are the only one that can answer this question for yourself. Have you had a chance to shoot the G36? If not rent one. I asked myself the same question as you did and turned out that the G36 wasn't even an option as i didn't care to shoot it. The wider frame of the 30 fit me far better and solved all of my issues with compromised fire power.

Maybe rent a similar sized 9mm and 40 sw? Keep an open mind.

As far as your state laws go and your right to protect ones self and others, If you have completed a CCW course and obtained a permit then you should know your state's individual laws. Not all are the same.

Again take the time to make the decision your self and spend a few dollars at the range renting a few different models. In the end, you can be confident that you can bet your life on it.

[wprebeck]

Originally Posted by mah77

I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

I'd suggest you immediately check your state laws for defense of a third party. What you said is completey idiotic, stupid, and wrong.

[ballr4lyf]

Originally Posted by wprebeck

I'd suggest you immediately check your state laws for defense of a third party. What you said is completey idiotic, stupid, and wrong.

This. I'm starting to think Mah77 has spent too much time behind the iron curtain (California).

[Atlas]

Of all the semi-auto pistols on the block, probably none is faster-loading than the short, slim G36 magazine.

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by Brad55102

im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

Nope.

This is why I decided never to carry a 45ACP pistol for SD long before I had ever seen this article.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Pat...8-25-2008.aspx

Even if I were a LEO I would want to carry a G17 loaded with Win Ranger 127SXT+P+.

[notjustanothermini]

i personally feel more comfort in a nice ol' double stacked mag.

my daily carry is a g29, with a g20 mag and plus 2 extesnion, for a total of 18 ultra potent underwood ammo 165 grain JHP's. and in the car under the seat, i keep the 57 round mag for the g29. yes i have a 55 round mag (well, i stopped filling it at 55 rounds)

[matthew.s]

This is what my CCW instructor told me about the number of rounds you carry in a self defense weapon, when I asked him the same question.

"If you need more than 7 rounds of .45 ACP in a typical street confrontations or in a home defense scenario, then you aren't in a self defense scenario, you're in a war, and you can't guarantee your safety, so get your ass out of there."

People have no problems carrying Colt Commanders, which are 6+1 or 7+1 so in all honestly, if you get a Pierce Grip Extender for a G36, you're bringing more than enough firepower for a street confrontation.

But there is nothing to say you can't carry 1 or 2 extra magazines to continue the storm if you need to.

[RedsoxFan4Lyfe]

I think that 7 rounds in plenty and just carry a spare mag. For many years I carried a 1911, which was 7+1 really and made it to 8+1 when such mags came out and proved reliable for the 1911 platform. Most days I carry my Glock 19 with a spare mag. More for a failure of the mag, not so much for a reload.

Violence happens fast and close. If you don't get it done with 7 rounds, or 17 rounds, you are likely not getting it done.

I guess it's just a personal thing really. It has no right or wrong answer.

[frankmako]

yes, 6 round will be ok. most gun fights are not like what you see on tv.

[beforeobamabans]

Originally Posted by frankmako

yes, 6 round will be ok. most gun fights are not like what you see on tv.

And then there was the GT member who was out jogging with his Kimber 7+1 when he got clubbed in the head from behind and knocked to the ground. Dazed and prone on his back, he fired all eight rounds at what turned out to be two adversaries. One perp took four .45acps and dropped dead. The second perp got away. It is unknown if he was hit. One thing is for sure, the victim was out of ammo and he's lucky perp #2 wasn't armed or in the mood to fight.

[English]

Originally Posted by matthew.s

This is what my CCW instructor told me about the number of rounds you carry in a self defense weapon, when I asked him the same question.

"If you need more than 7 rounds of .45 ACP in a typical street confrontations or in a home defense scenario, then you aren't in a self defense scenario, you're in a war, and you can't guarantee your safety, so get your ass out of there."....

It is amazing what nonsense some instructors can talk and how many people repeat this idea.

If someone is trying to kill you in a non war environment, why would anyone think they are going to stop trying because you are running away? Bullets are faster than running and BGs can run after you with plenty of rounds left in their double stack 9s.

Of course the majority of self defense fire fights don't take more than 4 or 5 rounds (GGs don't soot BGs when they are running away), but some do.

English

[RYT 2BER]

I'll say what I always say on the subjects..

IMO yes lesser rounds is probably enough.. but I'd certainly rather more.. the mystique of .45 isn't worth the capacity limitations to me (honestly I don't think it should be for others).

I don't believe .45 is going to ballistically more impressive than .40 for example so I'd rather have more rounds. Actually I never carry 9mm but I would over .45 for the extra capacity any day...

But again its a personal preference.... we all know that 2-3 rounds is probably enough for real world SD but I just feel that more is better when the opportunity is there...

[Seraph]

You'll never know if you've brought "enough" rounds, until the encounter is finished. The sidearms that I prefer to carry generally hold more than 6 rounds, but there have been a few times when I dashed out the door with a J-frame in my jacket pocket. If you pick a sidearm with which you can do well, and practice with it, and then carry it as often as you can, then you're doing so much more than most ever will, and hopefully more than you will ever need. Just do your best, whatever happens.

[Southswede]

After having "been there, done that" I can say that it does NOT matter how many rounds you are carrying-it will NEVER seem like you have enough ammo.

[GRT45]

Merkavaboy, thanks very much for posting the link to that important story. I had not read it before. It was filled with so many good lessons that I took time to carefully summarize the 3-page story for my library of "teachable moments" involving firearms and self defense.

In hopes that more people will read and learn from the event, I include below my shortened summary of the story.

Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008

Photo gallery for the story


The report is a harrowing tale of a deadly daylight gunfight on 8/25/2008 between Officer Tim Gramins, a 14-year veteran of the Skokie, IL PD, and a black, male bank robbery suspect Raymond Maddox.

After calling for backup, Officer Gramins pursued Maddox in a car chase. The chase ended in a residential neighborhood when Maddox suddenly stopped, quickly exited his car and charged toward the patrol unit firing a Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm semi-auto pistol⁽¹⁾ at Gramins who was still seated in the stopped patrol car located only 15 ft away.

Officer Gramins drew his holstered Glock 21 .45 ACP pistol and returned fire. The two exchanged fire through the rapidly disintegrating windshield of the patrol car until, nearly simultaneously, Maddox’s S&W 9mm pistol jammed (failure to eject) and Gramins expended his primary magazine that had been loaded with 12 rounds⁽²⁾ plus the one round he kept loaded in the chamber.

Maddox retreated to his car and ditched the 9mm pistol to retrieve a Bersa Blue Thunder .380 semi-auto pistol⁽³⁾, while Officer Gramins exited the patrol car, knelt down at the front of the car and reloaded with his first spare mag loaded with 12 rounds.

The two began again to exchange gunfire as Officer Gramins quickly moved down the driver's side of his patrol car and around the rear to the passenger side to a position providing cover and a view forward. Having emptied his first spare mag, Gramins loaded his second spare mag containing 12 rounds. With the patrol car between them, the two men engaged in a deadly game of cat and mouse; one would rise and fire as the other ducked.

Maddox eventually stayed below view and Officer Gramins went prone to fire under the car in Maddox’s direction.

After some brief, ineffective point shooting by Officer Gramins that struck the tire and underside of the patrol car, Gramins paused and took careful aim at the head of Maddox who was crouched on the downslope of the opposite side of the street. Gramins fired a rapid, three-shot volley striking Maddox in the head three times and he went down, ending the fight immediately.

Maddox was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was pronounced dead. Except for a few cuts on the chin from flying debris, Officer Gramins was mentally and physically uninjured in the horrendous exchange and was released from the hospital the next day.

Later investigation revealed that Officer Gramins had only a total of 4 rounds remaining in the second spare magazine and chamber when the fight ended, thus he had fired a total of 33 rounds of 45ACP ammo (12+1, reload, 12, reload, 8). Of the 33 rounds fired, he hit Maddox a total of 17 times including the final three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen. Maddox had fired a total of 22 rounds from the 9mm and .380 pistols. The shootout lasted for over sixty seconds of sustained fire.

"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins said. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."

Gramins had a Glock 26 backup gun but never got to it. Investigators recovered an SKS rifle from Maddox's car trunk along with a magazine and 7.62 rounds. Fortunately, Maddox didn’t use this rifle in the exchange.

Officer Gramins partly credits SWAT training for coming out on top and his outside training, reading and study of the psychology and physiology of combat, together with his strong will to live stemming from a deep love for his son and desire to attend his son’s birthday party that night.

_____________________________

Editor's Comments:

1. Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm pistol probably had a 15-rnd mag
2. Evidently it is Skokie, IL PD policy, or the personal preference of Officer Gramins, to load 12 rounds in the G21 standard 13-rd capacity mag
3. Bersa Blue Thunder .380 pistol probably had a 9-rnd mag

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Nope.

This is why I decided never to carry a 45ACP pistol for SD long before I had ever seen this article.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

Even if I were a LEO I would want to carry a G17 loaded with Win Ranger 127SXT+P+.