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Old 03-02-2012, 18:31   #226
bdcochran
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different response

I re-read the original posting.

It poses a question that has been asked before in this and other forums.

Ok. My reflections.

1. The question posed does not affect my survival preparations.
2. My answer would affect the survival of others after shtf.
3. My answer would not affect anyone else's survival preparations.
4. The responses of others to the question now doesn't affect my decision when shtf.

It does give me pause to make some observations that may be of assistance to other people.
1. when a person misses 5 meals, he starts to become lethargic. If he misses a week or so of food, physically he won't be as much as a threat to you.
2. they range of motion; the range of action; the thought processes of a person weakened by hunger are greatly diminished.
3. you will make your own personal decision when the time comes - and it will be right for you, regardless of someone else's philosophy
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Old 03-02-2012, 18:34   #227
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Just to cut to the chase. I really hope all of you prepare to eat and feed your families if SHTF. If you have to kill to eat, I hope it's quail, dove, feral hogs, deer, wild vegetables that lose their lives for your table fare. If you plan on threatening the lives of other humans, or actually plan on taking the lives of humans in order to live due to your lack of preparation now, I'll not mourn your loss if an honest person ends you for your brigand ways. I'll be rooting for the good guys. Brigands make darn good fertilizer for the garden. Best to plant them on the shallow side under the onions.
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Old 03-02-2012, 18:57   #228
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I have no children, and am currently single. If it's just me, no I would not, with the possible exception of having just seen the people with the food commit murder to steal it themselves.

Put a wife and kids into the mix, and I do not know.
Put a wife and kids into the mix and all demands of "civilization" vanish out my tailgate (sorry) but I tend to take the Lestat Approach; if you must live as a predator, prey on the evil-doer. In the situation described above, I can imagine no lack of AlphaHotels in need of such treatment.
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Old 03-02-2012, 21:00   #229
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It's a mistake to accept Bren's premise, that the opposite of being a suburban dad "good guy" -- I guess that's a lone-wolf "bad guy" -- gives a sustainable survival advantage. I can see it in an artificial, isolated case such as two guys on an island, but the advantage disappears when you factor in society...ie, other people, who will want to settle scores.

At best "bad-guy-ism" give a short term advantage once in awhile, but society's lone cheaters and scofflaws are dealt with, and harshly in a post-event world. No trial, just killed. (Socially networked bad guys is another story entirely, and have a better chance.)

If Bren's premise is correct...that the vicious, aggressive perps survive at the cost of the the suburban dads...then why hasn't evolution selected for vicious and aggressive people as the norm in our society (or other advanced societies, or virtually all societies for that matter)? But the norm is overwhelmingly "suburban dad" than it is "Scarface." How many hundreds of thousands of suburban dads exist for every Scarface? What's that ratio?

Sure, you get your outlier anti-social bad-men, in time hunted down and jailed or killed by coalitions of rivals or victims. Society isn't going to magically vanish. The desire for revenge isn't going to magically vanish. Consequences of behavior won't just evaporate due to a catastrophe.

Again, the model for human behavior here, seems to be based on way too much TV watching and video game playing, and way too little human psychology. Unprovoked "lone wolf" aggression is an unsustainable survival tactic, proven by aeons of human history. Any post-event lone aggressors will discover this in short order.

Think about it: morality actually is a survival tactic, of sorts.

Of course, this is the internet, and the proponents of "bad-man-ism" are probably all suburban dad wimps themselves.

PS: You could call most of the heroes of WWII "wimps," as they had no previous history of killing and aggression, and were not professional killers by trade. Some of you will be surprised how many "average, nonviolent" people will resist lone-wolf aggressors.
There is a difference between randomly displayed aggression or violence and clear-headed, calculated, brutal and efficient viciousness. The former is what is displayed by the lone wolf preying on those around him on a whim. The latter is what this suburban dad, and many like me, would display if the lone wolf posed even the slightest threat to the well-being of my family in that situation. If it comes down to me and him, he is killing me for my food. I am killing him for my family. There is a big difference.

Also, regardless of the training of the lone attacker... Given that I am in even a modestly fortified location, what is it that the rules of ground warfare say about the size of a force necessary to take a defensive fortification vs. the size of the force inside?

Suburban dads, given a proper Southern gentleman's mindset, may be the most dangerous people on the planet in the right circumstances BECAUSE they dads.
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Old 03-02-2012, 21:29   #230
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Well I'll never have a chance to get Kuru because I know I'll NEVER eat people. I don't care how hungry I get. There's a line I will not cross. If I die, then I die. And if people ever stooped to that level we might be shunning them - like in the Book of Eli! (Though those oldsters with all the guns were cool.)

Kuru is God's way of saying, "I wouldn't do that **** if I were you."
I looked it up to do more reading.

It does not seem that any of us posting in this thread could get it.
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Old 03-02-2012, 23:08   #231
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If it comes down to me and him, he is killing me for my food. I am killing him for my family. There is a big difference.
I'm with you, and I like the argument, but to be fair, the "aggressor foragers" in this thread were aggressing on behalf of their starving children. So both sides of the debate have the moral cover of "for the children." In this hypothetical, someone's kids gonna die either way. Just sayin'.

I agree with you, I'm thinking the forager dad is dying before the defender dad is, all else being equal.

Just like criminals, foragers will be looking for the least resistance, and will prey on the weakest they can find. It's safest. Look out, Prius-driving AARP ladies. (No offense intended to any who may be reading.)

@Gimp: What's an AlphaHotel? Like a Motel 6 or...?
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Old 03-02-2012, 23:46   #232
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Folks,what is wrong with having 5+ years stored at multiple locales? We have more than that stored.'08.
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:53   #233
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I find the whole concept to be morally and ethically stomach turning.

Now that I have that out of my system let me tell you a story. My wife was having a sharp pain near her left kidney last Tuesday. She had a doctors appointment set up for Wednesday morning. She woke me up at 3am in terrible pain and crying. We immediatley went to the ER of one of the nicest hospitals around. We sat there for 9 FREAKING HOURS before they gave her anything for the pain or even began tests. It was 12 hours door to door total.

I tell you this because after 9 hours of watching my wife suffer in pain I was dangerously close to kicking down the door and "convincing" a doctor to see her immediately. I can not imagine what my reaction would be to watching her starve.
i've been through this before.....you really hate to see a loved one in pain.....next time call ems to take her....she'll get a room right away.....if they don't come for a while....be a pain in the ***.....they will take care of you so you'll leave
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:41   #234
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oh my!!! sit around and wait for FEMA....they are here to help! Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:59   #235
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could i? Yes. I think anyone who says they couldn't is a liar.

Would i? That's what i don't know. I'd like to think that my reliance on god to fulfill my needs would not send me down that path. Instead of relying on one's self, the kind of situation you describe dictates a strong faith for survival.
this ^^^^
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:05   #236
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timelines?

is there any research or group think on the timelines here? just curious....as in how long will the mass die off take and then approx how long will it take for the loose groups of predators to work their way out from the inner cities to the suburbs and then be forced to disperse into the hinterland? also wondering about small groups banding together and beginning to link up with other groups.... at some point in the survival curve I was thinking that the groups which can survive and stay in tact will begin to take out the predators/rogues...of course, they could go rogue themselves.....My God what a nightmare!
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:18   #237
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Pre-mature Doomsday?

While it's possible for a temporary disruption in organized civilization, I don't think the dog-eat-dog world we fear will materialize unless some catastrophic event were to engulf the entire planet such as an asteroid or comet strike.

I don't think I can kill someone for their food but I can certainly kill and eat the person coming for my food.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:00   #238
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is there any research or group think on the timelines here? just curious....as in how long will the mass die off take and then approx how long will it take for the loose groups of predators to work their way out from the inner cities to the suburbs and then be forced to disperse into the hinterland? also wondering about small groups banding together and beginning to link up with other groups.... at some point in the survival curve I was thinking that the groups which can survive and stay in tact will begin to take out the predators/rogues...of course, they could go rogue themselves.....My God what a nightmare!
Kind of like the current episodes of The Walking Dead

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Old 03-03-2012, 11:36   #239
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Old 03-03-2012, 14:07   #240
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No, I would not, ever.

It's a matter of preferring to die with the values you truly believe in, and as the person you want to be, over the idea of becoming a criminal to survive.

Some might think I'm lying, but I think some people are not really all that committed to the moral values they claim to believe in. Many people only stick to their morals when it's easy.

Food-theft is merely one drop in the bucket full of lame excuses for turning criminal, and even while dying I'd never give up hope and faith in my ability to survive somehow, without leaving a trail of crime victims behind me.

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Old 03-03-2012, 16:43   #241
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Just to cut to the chase. I really hope all of you prepare to eat and feed your families if SHTF. If you have to kill to eat, I hope it's quail, dove, feral hogs, deer, wild vegetables that lose their lives for your table fare. If you plan on threatening the lives of other humans, or actually plan on taking the lives of humans in order to live due to your lack of preparation now, I'll not mourn your loss if an honest person ends you for your brigand ways. I'll be rooting for the good guys. Brigands make darn good fertilizer for the garden. Best to plant them on the shallow side under the onions.
Doc - I do not disagree with that one bit. And if I went 'brigand' I have it coming.

But - my point is, no matter how much you prep, S happens. At some point, even the good guys can end up on the brigand side of the fence.

There is a meteor storm, your bug in location AND bug out location are struck. Then, a big rock hits the water and there are Tsunami/floods, you get to the high ground. A plague starts wiping out the wildlife. Would you do it?

My question does not allow you to hide behind "I'm prepping - I have 10 years of gear in six different locations." Scenario is "It's gone - your loved ones are starving."

I'd like to think I can find a way out, around, over or under it. But if I'm down to starve or use the last three rounds?

Of course, there is trade the gun for food...But i don't know that I would give up a weapon.
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Old 03-03-2012, 20:11   #242
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[QUOTE=Aceman;18661901].......... At some point, even the good guys can end up on the brigand side of the fence./QUOTE]

I don't believe that's true of everyone.

I think lots of people throughout history have preferred to die while remaining true to the good side of things, rather than live by becoming a part of the bad side.
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Old 03-03-2012, 20:46   #243
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Doc - I do not disagree with that one bit. And if I went 'brigand' I have it coming.

But - my point is, no matter how much you prep, S happens. At some point, even the good guys can end up on the brigand side of the fence.

There is a meteor storm, your bug in location AND bug out location are struck. Then, a big rock hits the water and there are Tsunami/floods, you get to the high ground. A plague starts wiping out the wildlife. Would you do it?

My question does not allow you to hide behind "I'm prepping - I have 10 years of gear in six different locations." Scenario is "It's gone - your loved ones are starving."

I'd like to think I can find a way out, around, over or under it. But if I'm down to starve or use the last three rounds?

Of course, there is trade the gun for food...But i don't know that I would give up a weapon.




Hard to imagine a scenario where only humans survive. Dove, pigeons, deer, fish, feral hogs, dogs and cats are ok to kill for food. Even in Texas, you can find plants to eat in nature.

If you know what you are doing in nature, there are a lot of options before you would need to threaten or kill other people for food. There will be a lot of people that will consider that route though. Those people will make good volunteer dog food and/or fertilizer if you plan ahead.

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Old 03-03-2012, 21:08   #244
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Would you take others food at gun point?
No. I'm going on 52 and have polycystic kidney disease.

My answer might be different if I were a young father/husband.
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Old 03-03-2012, 22:34   #245
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Doc - I do not disagree with that one bit. And if I went 'brigand' I have it coming.

But - my point is, no matter how much you prep, S happens. At some point, even the good guys can end up on the brigand side of the fence.

There is a meteor storm, your bug in location AND bug out location are struck. Then, a big rock hits the water and there are Tsunami/floods, you get to the high ground. A plague starts wiping out the wildlife. Would you do it?

My question does not allow you to hide behind "I'm prepping - I have 10 years of gear in six different locations." Scenario is "It's gone - your loved ones are starving."

I'd like to think I can find a way out, around, over or under it. But if I'm down to starve or use the last three rounds?

Of course, there is trade the gun for food...But i don't know that I would give up a weapon.
As ta your precis,it sorta fails.

We have more than you posted and in a variance of geographic areas.If a disruption of that magnitude happens this world is dead,not just my AO.'08.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:12   #246
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The Downsides: answers welcomed.

Having multiple locations or caches of food seems to make sense but then, in the post civilization world we envision, aren't we most vulnerable when we must leave our personal fortress? Might I not get sniped at merely for the gun I'm carrying? As good as we may think we are, how do we defend ourselves from the patient guy on the roof with a scope-sighted, center-fire deer rifle? Caliber doesn't matter as dead is dead. Also, if you are rural and have planted food plots, won't you need 24-hour armed guards to protect this food supply?

Much of the current advice, such as on the TV show "Doomsday Preppers" is that we should have a rural location to retreat to. I wonder; in a sparcely populated region, all residences might be methodically raided and searched by hungry thugs. In the suburban environment with tens of thousands of homes to choose from, there's a good chance that no one with hostile intentions will come calling. Besides, many of us can't afford second homes and unless you have the foresight to see it coming, you probably won't be able to get to your hideaway once the collapse is under way.

And here's another problem: what do you do if uniformed police and or volunteer firemen show up at your door stating that all foodstuffs are being confiscated as the municipality is forming a "centralized food distribution center" to "ease the suffering." Do you hand over your food or shoot them on the spot?
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:15   #247
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Would you take others food at gun point?
Nope. Not a liberal bone in my body. I don't feel entitled to other peoples' stuff.
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:50   #248
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As ta your precis,it sorta fails.

We have more than you posted and in a variance of geographic areas.If a disruption of that magnitude happens this world is dead,not just my AO.'08.
This is the example of "avoiding the question"

Don't care how much you have. It's gone or you can't get to it without another can of beans in your belly. Do you do it?

Do you REALLY believe it isn't possible for you to end up without?
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:27   #249
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Nope. Not a liberal bone in my body. I don't feel entitled to other peoples' stuff.
Entitlement is not the question. It is not being entitled to it, but rather, would you do it if it meant the survival of yourself or your family. It would be pretty desperate times. Nobody is saying to do it at the first minute after a disaster, just go start looting and killing. This is assuming after a while, there is nothing left, like the Road. The world is dead. No vegetation, no food of any sort, nothing. Or your preps are wiped out and there are no alternatives. Would you?

Quote:
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This is the example of "avoiding the question"

Don't care how much you have. It's gone or you can't get to it without another can of beans in your belly. Do you do it?

Do you REALLY believe it isn't possible for you to end up without?
That's the problem here. Everyone keeps saying we got enough or we prep a lot or there are tons of natural resources. Well, nothing lasts forever. Answer the question. Even if it's a simple never, along with all the high-falutin' moralizing, it's better than denial.
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:53   #250
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Civilization is a thin veneer. Millions scratch at its surface every year and go to jail, others get away with it, probably just comitting low level crime. The number of true "predators" would be unreal...the chance to act without accountability will be be so tempting that any "excuse" to act out their Mad Max fantasy will suffice.

Take a look at Africa...do they attack the others because of food? I don't know, it appears they call up some historical event to seek revenge for and then start whacking limbs off. Hutus, Tutsis to Serbs, Croats...man will kill for things less than "food".

We won't wake up one day with the Book of Eli, it would be a long slide....with a gradual de-evolution of society. If it went on long enough, the remaining folks would have to adapt. The question is how far is the bottom? We would be invaded by China before you had to worry about eating your neighbor.

What the hell was the question anyway?

Ultimately the majority of individuals would do what they had to do to feed themselves and their loved ones. When you have never observed hunger or killing, you will still believe in god, when it arrives at your doorstep and there's no hope...I think we will resort to being the animals we have hidden away with clothes, jobs, and religion.
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