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02-22-2012, 00:43
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#101
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CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape
Do you actually read any scientific texts written by researchers in their field of study, or just accept the abuses of science spoon-fed by Creationist sites/organizations?
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Then 20 minutes later...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
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Your "contribution" to a scientific discussion is citing an article written by Pastor Daniel R. Vess of The Forum Terrace Church of Christ.
I'm going to suggest that you try reading the text of a researcher in their field of study. This is a pretty well regarded text book on Grand Canyon geology by a... wait for it... professor of geology, Michael Morales.
Professor Morales as well as sedimentologists who make their living studying sedimentary rock and are responsible for locating the underground water, oil, gas, coal, uranium etc. that powers our world disagree with Pastor Vess.
A worldwide flood would leave behind a single layer of mudstone. The Grand Canyon has hundreds of layers of shale (which requires burial and compaction over millions of years) layered with sandstone and limestone.
Through the middle of the canyon is nearly 1000 feet thickness of lava flows created by dozens of separate flows. The flows show evidence of having cooled and been affected by weather between subsequent flows and layers of sediment building on top of them.
The rocks at the base of the canyon are tilted and eroded with additional layers built on top of them. Had a Great Flood occurred, gravity would have just caused these soupy layers to flow with gravity leaving the slump folds well known to sedimentologists.
The canyon is full of fossilized tracks from trilobytes and other invertebrates and burrows from worms in layer after layer. When would there be time for this with a great, rapid flood?
Delicate fossils of bryozoans, sea lilies and lamp shells are intact which would not have survived the energy of a great flood.
The white band of Coconino Sandstone near the rim of the canyon forms in desert sand dunes, not underwater, and these surfaces are covered with tracks of dry-land reptiles.
Much of the early fossil record and geologic column was compiled by geologists, who accepted the Creation account, in the early 19th century, years before Darwin's Origin was published, so they were clearly not part of some scientific community wide conspiracy.
-ArtificialGrape
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02-22-2012, 00:53
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#102
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 427
You said we're regressing, what earlier humanoid form are we regressing to?
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I'm gonna say .... monkeys. Yes. Monkeys. 
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02-22-2012, 01:06
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#103
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CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,118
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BTW, I'm going to be traveling for business for 2 days, so please excuse slow replies.
-ArtificialGrape
Oh, and TNTMMTM.
(Try Not To Miss Me Too Much, of course)
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02-22-2012, 02:07
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#104
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Not Enough Gun
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45
He is referring to Haeckel's drawings that have been widely discredited and were in continued use in textbooks long after they were proven to be false. I do believe it has been quite sometime since they were finally deleted, though.
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I know what he's talking about, but unless he went to school in the 1800s it seems unlikely he had a textbook which presented the pictures as examples of recapitulation theory, which is what the controversy over Haeckel's original drawings involved. There are also a variety of different illustrations, so it would be helpful to know which specific illustrations appeared in the textbook Vic had and in what context they were presented.
On the other hand, almost every creationist seems to make the claim Vic has made over the last decade since this controversy has been revived, yet none seem to be able to produce the actual texts containing erroneous material.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
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02-22-2012, 02:17
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#105
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Not Enough Gun
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
I bought in to the theory of evolution as it was presented in a way that did not disclose its flaws.
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What flaws?
Quote:
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I even became a Christian before I began to question the Theory of evolution.
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Clearly, even after that point you still did not question it based on any scientific issue.
Quote:
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So I am a converted evolutionist and I love science. What is your excuse for having preconceived beliefs? BTW I posted the link to one of the stories about the soft tissue in the T Rex bone.
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You mean the preconceived belief that there are certain physical laws which govern the universe? Observation gives us a reason to hold that belief. You still haven't posted either the name of the textbook you used or the proof that protein can't survive 70 million years under certain conditions. As for the article you posted, it does speak of soft tissue found in a T.rex bone, but I don't see anything about the impossibility of the preservation of cells, perhaps you could point out that specific passage.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
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02-22-2012, 02:20
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#106
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Not Enough Gun
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering
I want to see a single celled amoeba come into existence out of nothing and when it reaches adulthood grow arms, legs, a tail, teeth, and fur. Then as it gets older I want to see it develop higher brain functions including some form of ability to communicate with other single celled amoeba's through the use of body language or sound. If I could witness all this I'd say you have proof of evolution. If not, then the best you have is a theory.
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I'd love to see that too, simply as a curiosity. However, if that did happen, it wouldn't prove evolution since evolution occurs over generations, not within a single individual.
On the other hand, experiments such as Lenski's E.coli colonies and the recent studies which observed the development of multi-cellularity in yeast do demonstrate evolution.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
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02-22-2012, 02:26
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#107
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Not Enough Gun
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape
BTW, you do know that the Pope allows Evolution Lite, don't you?
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More to the point, a member of the Vatican Observatory, and a Jesuit, Brother Guy Consolmagno has said, "Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god."
Seems pretty on the ball, even if he did go to UofA.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
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02-22-2012, 06:18
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#108
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Where's my EBT?
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 6,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDrake
Guess so. I wonder what Vic's explanation of the light from stars is? I mean the light that has been traveling at the speed of light for billions of years to reach us....that or universal expansion...hey Vic, is the universe expanding?
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Those lights in the sky at night? Why, they're candles, of course.
__________________
Matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration; we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death. Life is a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. And now...the weather! ---- Bill Hicks
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02-22-2012, 07:43
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#109
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Rip Lips
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 7,164
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You notice, he doesn't answer the question of universal expansion.
__________________
"Can you FLY, Bobby?"
P229 EDC
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02-22-2012, 08:55
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#110
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 5,571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDrake
You notice, he doesn't answer the question of universal expansion.
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He appears to dodge everything that doesn't have a canned answer.
__________________
For every complex question, there is a simple answer…and it is wrong.
H.L. Mencken
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02-22-2012, 10:24
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#111
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 8,936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDrake
You notice, he doesn't answer the question of universal expansion.
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This question is so elementary I thought you were just blowing a smokescreen. Here are a few answers to that question.
1. The Bible does not say the earth or the universe is only 6000 years old. People who have taken that position have taken it literally that all of creation was within the 6 days of the 7 day creation week. Genesis says the earth was without form and void. Creation in the Bible could be taken as an observer watching from the surface of the earth as God began step by step to get the earth ready for life and then create the higher forms. This theory makes the universal expansion question moot as it does not even address the rest of the universe.
2. If indeed God did create the entire universe within creation week He certainly is able to create a bird in flight or the light between the stars along with the stars. This theory would take care of your question handily.
3. It has been found recently that the speed of light is decreasing. At creation, expansion and the speed of light occurred much faster than they would now. They began decreasing exponentially and now appear almost constant.
Before you go shooting off your mouth like the scoffing at the Colorado river running uphill to create the Grand Canyon, I can post a link so you can find a site that discusses the decreasing speed of light:
http://orbits.00space.com/vsl.html
3.
__________________
Vic Hays
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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02-22-2012, 10:48
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#112
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 8,936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother
What flaws?
Clearly, even after that point you still did not question it based on any scientific issue.
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I have found the Bible to be more reliable than human theories. I can give you an example.
I watched a documentary by a fellow named Leakey suppose to be the foremost authority on the evolution of man.
After the Hollywood dramatization he declared that while they cannot prove evolution they had so much evidence it must certainly be true.
His piece of evidence for homo erectus was a jawbone. He said that all they had was the jawbone and that it was the jawbone of an ape. He showed the cover of his book and then said they didn't know for sure if homo erectus walked upright, but it could have. He pointed out the cover of his book that showed homo erectus standing up and pointed out that he was leaning on a branch. That was because they weren't really sure that he walked upright.
He explained why he thought homo erectus walked upright. The teeth on the evidencuary jawbone were worn more than he thought they should be. This led to the conjecture that the ape was eating fibrous fibrous and tough food. This led to the conjecture that this ape dwelt in the plains rather than the forest. This led to the conjecture that it could have developed upright walking. This led to the conjecture that this was an ancestor of modern man.
Conjecture upon conjecture upon conjecture. The evidence was the jawbone of an ape with worn teeth.
I would be a fool not to question this foremost expert on the evolution of man.
__________________
Vic Hays
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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02-22-2012, 10:49
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#113
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 8,936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother
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Seems pretty blasphemous to me to doubt that the Creator God is the Creator. Perhaps this is one of the reasons they do not celebrate the 7th day Sabbath that the Creator God instituted.
__________________
Vic Hays
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Last edited by Vic Hays; 02-22-2012 at 10:50..
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02-22-2012, 11:48
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#114
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CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 11,158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45
It is a test of faith, you see. God created the light as if it were already in transit knowing we would discover this and that it would give us pause. If you mentally block out this information from your conscious mind and instead choose to blindly believe an arcane text then you pass and you get to go to heavan.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
If indeed God did create the entire universe within creation week He certainly is able to create a bird in flight or the light between the stars along with the stars. This theory would take care of your question handily.
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Called it!
__________________
Peace is our profession (war is just a hobby)
"I've become quite used to people around here misrepresenting my positions." - Cavalry Doc
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02-22-2012, 11:49
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#115
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Not Enough Gun
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
I have found the Bible to be more reliable than human theories.
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It's easy to reach that conclusion when you refuse to consider anything else.
Quote:
I can give you an example.
I watched a documentary by a fellow named Leakey suppose to be the foremost authority on the evolution of man.
After the Hollywood dramatization he declared that while they cannot prove evolution they had so much evidence it must certainly be true.
His piece of evidence for homo erectus was a jawbone. He said that all they had was the jawbone and that it was the jawbone of an ape. He showed the cover of his book and then said they didn't know for sure if homo erectus walked upright, but it could have. He pointed out the cover of his book that showed homo erectus standing up and pointed out that he was leaning on a branch. That was because they weren't really sure that he walked upright.
He explained why he thought homo erectus walked upright. The teeth on the evidencuary jawbone were worn more than he thought they should be. This led to the conjecture that the ape was eating fibrous fibrous and tough food. This led to the conjecture that this ape dwelt in the plains rather than the forest. This led to the conjecture that it could have developed upright walking. This led to the conjecture that this was an ancestor of modern man.
Conjecture upon conjecture upon conjecture. The evidence was the jawbone of an ape with worn teeth.
I would be a fool not to question this foremost expert on the evolution of man.
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What was the name of this documentary?
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
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02-22-2012, 11:53
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#116
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Not Enough Gun
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
Before you go shooting off your mouth like the scoffing at the Colorado river running uphill to create the Grand Canyon, I can post a link so you can find a site that discusses the decreasing speed of light:
http://orbits.00space.com/vsl.html |
Posting a link does not equate to the contents of that link having anything to do with observation or the physical realities of the universe. It used to be the whackjobs would mail their revolutionary discoveries in physics to various university physics departments, now they post them on websites devoid of any actual math or supporting evidence.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
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02-22-2012, 12:01
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#117
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 8,936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother
Posting a link does not equate to the contents of that link having anything to do with observation or the physical realities of the universe. It used to be the whackjobs would mail their revolutionary discoveries in physics to various university physics departments, now they post them on websites devoid of any actual math or supporting evidence.
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Did you happen to examine the math in the link?
__________________
Vic Hays
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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02-22-2012, 12:26
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#118
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Not Enough Gun
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
Did you happen to examine the math in the link?
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Yes, it's wrong. More to the point, if it were correct and the velocity of light had been decreasing 0.05 m/s per year over even that last thirteen years, scientists would have noticed.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
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02-22-2012, 12:48
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#119
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Scapegoat
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape
Yes, that is exactly how evolution works, and not at all a strawman 
How about you show me where the Bible clearly explains how the combustion engine works? Until then the best you have is a book of mythology written by a bunch of sand-strewn men who would have thought the wheelbarrow was pretty cool technology. 
-ArtificialGrape
BTW, you do know that the Pope allows Evolution Lite, don't you? |
Not a strawman at all, AM asked what it would take in the realm of proof. Why would scripture show how a combustable engine works???
And yes, i do know that. I happen to think evolution is quite possible if not probable. Not the point I am making here AG.
__________________
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Warranty voiding
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02-22-2012, 12:53
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#120
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Spershul Furces
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Afghanistan
Posts: 2,677
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I'm a Christian.
I believe in evolution.
I also said I'd stay out of this section. Crap. 
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02-22-2012, 13:25
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#121
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Rip Lips
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 7,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45
Called it!
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totally called it. LOL
__________________
"Can you FLY, Bobby?"
P229 EDC
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02-22-2012, 14:00
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#122
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 8,936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape
A worldwide flood would leave behind a single layer of mudstone. The Grand Canyon has hundreds of layers of shale (which requires burial and compaction over millions of years) layered with sandstone and limestone.
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Pure BS.
Mt St Helens created layers of sediment in a matter of houirs.
A theory to prove what point? That any theory I propose is wrong? Do you believe anything people tell you except what might lead to a conclusion that God created the universe?
The Bible is a science book of relationships and to the motives and intents of God and man. MAn did not observe creation. He was created at the end of creation and even Adam had to believe that God created everything.
You prefer to believe that all of creation happened accidentaly by forces and matter that is eternal and impersonal.
I choose to believe that creation was by a personal God that is personally interested in His creation.
What is it that you are afraid of and wish to hide from God?
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
__________________
Vic Hays
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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02-22-2012, 18:21
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#123
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CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
Pure BS.
Mt St Helens created layers of sediment in a matter of houirs.
A theory to prove what point? That any theory I propose is wrong? Do you believe anything people tell you except what might lead to a conclusion that God created the universe?
The Bible is a science book of relationships and to the motives and intents of God and man. MAn did not observe creation. He was created at the end of creation and even Adam had to believe that God created everything.
You prefer to believe that all of creation happened accidentaly by forces and matter that is eternal and impersonal.
I choose to believe that creation was by a personal God that is personally interested in His creation.
What is it that you are afraid of and wish to hide from God?
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
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Help me out here... how many layers of shale layered with sandstone and limestone did St. Helen's lay down?
The evidence of evolution including the descent of man is not at all challenged by a story of Shameful Naked Guy, Mother of Evil and Talking Snake.
I am not afraid of anything and have nothing to hide. If anybody is hiding it would appear to be God.
I will give credit to the author of Proverbs 3:5 -- we can't have anybody actually using their supposed God-given intellect and critical thinking, so admonish them to trust God and don't rely on your own understanding.
-ArtificialGrape
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02-22-2012, 18:30
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#124
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CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering
Why would scripture show how a combustable engine works???
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Well, given the number people here that use "where did all the matter come from" as an objection to evolution, it seems just as valid to expect the Bible to explain the combustible engine.
-ArtificialGrape
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02-22-2012, 19:14
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#125
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 8,936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape
Well, given the number people here that use "where did all the matter come from" as an objection to evolution, it seems just as valid to expect the Bible to explain the combustible engine.
-ArtificialGrape |
Internal combustion engines are passe.
What the Bible does explain is the God who made man and wants to save him.
Given the size and complexity of creation I think that is pretty significant.
__________________
Vic Hays
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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