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Old 02-20-2012, 09:02   #51
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Pull weight coulda been 2oz. doesn't matter. Finger OFF THE TRIGGER! I had an instructor @ a subgun operator class that used to keep his gun on full auto and preached trigger control for letting off 1,2,3 rds and such. He wasn't just yapping either. He had us all doing it at the end of the 5 day course. There was NEVER and ND in that class while I was there, and I'd not heard of one prior. If you have people bustin off shots accidentally, then they may was to re evaluate who they're letting carry guns.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:34   #52
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“They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing!”

I had decided to leave this thread but feel the need to revisit it one last time. The post that precipitated this response was very brief but so full of meaning and so perfectly indicative of the mindset of many of the posters in this thread that I could not overlook it. I therefore want to take a moment to properly acknowledge and thank that individual for providing me with the proper motivation to frame this reply.

“They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing!”

Yes indeed, the subject of this discussion is an organization that consists of cops, the NYPD. To place a finer focus on it, most of the comments are narrowly and specifically directed at the policies and standards of the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS). Stupid, ridiculous, retarded and more have been the adjectives used to describe the standard 12 pound trigger pull mandated for service weapons in use by MOS.

Such comments reveal the true naïveté and ignorance of the authors. Those scathing comments are made by gun people. What you fail to perceive is the fact that cops are, overwhelmingly NOT gun people. If there are 500 gun people present in today's current force of 35,000 then I would be surprised. To us, the members of the gun culture, firearms are a passion, a hobby and apparently in the case of some of the participants in this thread an obsession. To the average cop their sidearm is a tool of the trade and one that they fervently aspire to never have to utilize. That is the type of mindset faced not only by NYPD FTS but by law enforcement trainers the world over. Cops, for the most part despise having to qualify with their weapons and many only begrudgingly do so under the immediate threat of taking a rip. Many of them are not only poor shots, some are even terrified of the things. Many have never even held a firearm, much less fired one prior to their first day of training at Rodman's neck.

Yet, even with such a daunting student body the staff of FTS manage to turn them into safe shooters in a VERY short period of time. Do they turn out master gunfighters? Rarely, if ever. FTS range facilities are full to capacity seven days a week keeping up with all of the training requirements they've got to accomplish during the year. Keep in mind that each class is hobbled by the lowest common denominator, that guy or gal who HATES their weapon and can barely achieve that minimum passing grade.

NYPD’s FTS also hosts trainers from across the country who come to learn and exchange tactics and methods. FTS instructors compete locally and nationally and there are multiple showcases of awards and trophies on display up at Rodman’s Neck for all to see.

Each and every shot fired by an MOS of the NYPD is recorded on a Firearms Discharge/Assault form. Those forms and the information thereon wind up at FTS. Every shooting is broken down and analyzed, all with an eye towards improving training and officer safety standards. The results are published yearly in a document called SOP 9. It is provided to any law enforcement agency which requests a copy free of charge. Many departments nationwide use the knowledge imparted therein to enhance their training methods and practices. We don’t hide our mistakes, we learn from them and use them to help others.

So how do they perform, the FTS graduates with their 12 pound trigger pull service weapons? To the rabid critics of this thread, they perform horribly. Again, such beliefs are born out of ignorance. You fail to realize that for every single publicized instance of firearms mishandling published in the media there are literally tens of thousands of armed confrontations and felony pursuits and apprehensions that go off without a hitch. Cops approach individuals at gunpoint in NYC a few hundred times each and every day of the week. How can that occur with so many non-gun people wielding pistols? Could it be the result of training and equipment standards that are viable? Not to the posters in this thread.

What about that onerous 12pound requirement? Isn't it a band-aid approach to a training issue? Doesn't it exist as a result of administrative pencil-pushing reliability concerns? My answer is an overwhelming yes to both questions. In a perfect police world all MOS would be competent pistoleros and there would be enough training funds and facilities to ensure the production of such proficient shooters. The fact that Kahr is unable to safely meet it is just too bad for them. Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all can and do so with no drama whatsoever.

Welcome to the real world of the NYPD, Glock Talk posters. Our officers operate in a venue that is so densely populated that you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting five people, two of which are PETA activists. The training facilities are overburdened, poorly maintained and definitely underfunded. No one has the time to babysit a weapon that doesn't perform up to standards, whether the posters on this board agree with them or not. That causes many in this thread to become butt hurt. Isn’t that a pity?

"They are cops".

Yes indeed they are. For the record, it gives me the greatest pride to be associated with the poorest shot on the NYPD as compared to the disdain I feel for associating with the arrogant, know it all, chest beating, challenge coined avatar bearing persons involved with this thread.


Feel free to resume bashing the NYPD.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:48   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alabaster View Post
Pull weight coulda been 2oz. doesn't matter. Finger OFF THE TRIGGER! I had an instructor @ a subgun operator class that used to keep his gun on full auto and preached trigger control for letting off 1,2,3 rds and such. He wasn't just yapping either. He had us all doing it at the end of the 5 day course. There was NEVER and ND in that class while I was there, and I'd not heard of one prior. If you have people bustin off shots accidentally, then they may was to re evaluate who they're letting carry guns.
Although I see your point...
There is a reason most people don't want a target trigger on their carry gun and the military has proven that MOST people can not pop, 1,2, 3 shots off at will. With full auto, the first shot under stress is usually a full mag.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:03   #54
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
.... To the average cop their sidearm is a tool of the trade and one that they fervently aspire to never have to utilize.
...Each and every shot fired by an MOS of the NYPD is recorded on a Firearms Discharge/Assault form. Those forms and the information thereon wind up at FTS. Every shooting is broken down and analyzed, all with an eye towards improving training and officer safety standards.
... Cops approach individuals at gunpoint in NYC a few hundred times each and every day of the week. How can that occur with so many non-gun people wielding pistols? ....

Whether one likes their 12 lb trigger or not, and likes their training or not, from an objective standpoint of analyzing the frequency of pistols being pointed and the rather sparce number of incidents in which a shot is fired with no intent, one might be inclined to at least grudgingly admit that based on the available resources statistically they do pretty good. Maybe even better than agencies with a tiny fraction of the number of officers. And to make a comparison using any other group of people who may not be apprehending subjects at gun point, and dealing with others who turn to not be criminals at gunpoint is probably frivolous.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:12   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
I had decided to leave this thread but feel the need to revisit it one last time. The post that precipitated this response was very brief but so full of meaning and so perfectly indicative of the mindset of many of the posters in this thread that I could not overlook it. I therefore want to take a moment to properly acknowledge and thank that individual for providing me with the proper motivation to frame this reply.

“They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing!”

Yes indeed, the subject of this discussion is an organization that consists of cops, the NYPD. To place a finer focus on it, most of the comments are narrowly and specifically directed at the policies and standards of the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS). Stupid, ridiculous, retarded and more have been the adjectives used to describe the standard 12 pound trigger pull mandated for service weapons in use by MOS.

Such comments reveal the true naïveté and ignorance of the authors. Those scathing comments are made by gun people. What you fail to perceive is the fact that cops are, overwhelmingly NOT gun people. If there are 500 gun people present in today's current force of 35,000 then I would be surprised. To us, the members of the gun culture, firearms are a passion, a hobby and apparently in the case of some of the participants in this thread an obsession. To the average cop their sidearm is a tool of the trade and one that they fervently aspire to never have to utilize. That is the type of mindset faced not only by NYPD FTS but by law enforcement trainers the world over. Cops, for the most part despise having to qualify with their weapons and many only begrudgingly do so under the immediate threat of taking a rip. Many of them are not only poor shots, some are even terrified of the things. Many have never even held a firearm, much less fired one prior to their first day of training at Rodman's neck.

Yet, even with such a daunting student body the staff of FTS manage to turn them into safe shooters in a VERY short period of time. Do they turn out master gunfighters? Rarely, if ever. FTS range facilities are full to capacity seven days a week keeping up with all of the training requirements they've got to accomplish during the year. Keep in mind that each class is hobbled by the lowest common denominator, that guy or gal who HATES their weapon and can barely achieve that minimum passing grade.

NYPD’s FTS also hosts trainers from across the country who come to learn and exchange tactics and methods. FTS instructors compete locally and nationally and there are multiple showcases of awards and trophies on display up at Rodman’s Neck for all to see.

Each and every shot fired by an MOS of the NYPD is recorded on a Firearms Discharge/Assault form. Those forms and the information thereon wind up at FTS. Every shooting is broken down and analyzed, all with an eye towards improving training and officer safety standards. The results are published yearly in a document called SOP 9. It is provided to any law enforcement agency which requests a copy free of charge. Many departments nationwide use the knowledge imparted therein to enhance their training methods and practices. We don’t hide our mistakes, we learn from them and use them to help others.

So how do they perform, the FTS graduates with their 12 pound trigger pull service weapons? To the rabid critics of this thread, they perform horribly. Again, such beliefs are born out of ignorance. You fail to realize that for every single publicized instance of firearms mishandling published in the media there are literally tens of thousands of armed confrontations and felony pursuits and apprehensions that go off without a hitch. Cops approach individuals at gunpoint in NYC a few hundred times each and every day of the week. How can that occur with so many non-gun people wielding pistols? Could it be the result of training and equipment standards that are viable? Not to the posters in this thread.

What about that onerous 12pound requirement? Isn't it a band-aid approach to a training issue? Doesn't it exist as a result of administrative pencil-pushing reliability concerns? My answer is an overwhelming yes to both questions. In a perfect police world all MOS would be competent pistoleros and there would be enough training funds and facilities to ensure the production of such proficient shooters. The fact that Kahr is unable to safely meet it is just too bad for them. Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all can and do so with no drama whatsoever.

Welcome to the real world of the NYPD, Glock Talk posters. Our officers operate in a venue that is so densely populated that you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting five people, two of which are PETA activists. The training facilities are overburdened, poorly maintained and definitely underfunded. No one has the time to babysit a weapon that doesn't perform up to standards, whether the posters on this board agree with them or not. That causes many in this thread to become butt hurt. Isn’t that a pity?

"They are cops".

Yes indeed they are. For the record, it gives me the greatest pride to be associated with the poorest shot on the NYPD as compared to the disdain I feel for associating with the arrogant, know it all, chest beating, challenge coined avatar bearing persons involved with this thread.


Feel free to resume bashing the NYPD.
Yeah but, but, but...

Thanks for sharing your inside perspective. I appreciate learning and understanding the "whys" and "hows" of the way others do things.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:57   #56
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LOLOLOLOL

Like anybody in there right mind needs help from anybody in NYC or Brooklyn for that matter concerning guns or anything else.
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Old 02-20-2012, 13:53   #57
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Oh, and all along I thought the real reason was that the cute girls in the Kahr brochures were politically incorrect....
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Old 02-20-2012, 14:00   #58
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The NYPD has the big problem when it comes to firearms training. Multiple generations of people have grown up in a city where firearms are rarely seen outside the uniformed officer on the street. Even those who have firearms only have a few ranges to go to. From what I recall there are only three public ranges on Manhattan. Three ranges for a million people. Then once hired quarterly training of 8 hours becomes a huge task. Let's do the math:

4 days of training per year
8 hours per training day
32 hours per year per officer
35,000 officers equals 1,120,000 hours per year just for update training.

Throwing in recruits ads more time. IIRC they run a few hundred through the academy every month and they do 2 weeks (80 hours) of firearms. Let's do the math:

200 recruits per month
2400 per year
192,000 hours per year.

So for recruits and just about everybody else (ESU or other specialty units will have more) it will take 1,312,000 hours of instruction or 54667 days (24 hour days not 8 hour instruction days) or 150 years (rounded to nearest year).

So in order to give every officer one on one training for a year you would need 150 instructors.

I can see why they put rediculous trigger pulls on their guns. Anything over 12 is rediculous. It doesn't really matter if Kahr failed to make the standard or they chose not to make the standard.
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Old 02-20-2012, 14:23   #59
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How many other large agencies or groups of agencies (say, Homeland Security) are seeing that many negligent discharges a year?

It's one thing to suggest that 500 ND's isn't much, given the size of the department and the number of armed confrontations each year, but 500 is still 500 too many.

That's not a function of light or heavy triggers. It's a function of piss poor handling, period.
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Old 02-20-2012, 14:57   #60
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How many other large agencies or groups of agencies (say, Homeland Security) are seeing that many negligent discharges a year?

It's one thing to suggest that 500 ND's isn't much, given the size of the department and the number of armed confrontations each year, but 500 is still 500 too many.

That's not a function of light or heavy triggers. It's a function of piss poor handling, period.
The next largest LEA is California's Departmentof Corrections and Rehabilitation at 32,000. They are scattered all over the state, mostly in rural areas with populations that are more like TX when it comes to guns than NYC.

After them is Chicago, which is probably closer to NYC in terms of guns but you might find a few gun folks coming to work in the big city from the burbs.

Then it is the LAPD. Despite the far left leanings of the city they have a history of some serious gunslingers. They allow officer to not only purchase their own sidearms but rifles and shotguns. Thay is unheard of for a large agency. See some of SAR's posts in Coptalk on their training.
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Old 02-20-2012, 15:03   #61
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I tend to think maybe NYPD does need 12 or 13 pound triggers, let's make that 20 pound triggers. I would hate for them to point a gun at me with their finger probably on the trigger with anything less.
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Old 02-20-2012, 15:09   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns3guppy View Post
How many other large agencies or groups of agencies (say, Homeland Security) are seeing that many negligent discharges a year?

It's one thing to suggest that 500 ND's isn't much, given the size of the department and the number of armed confrontations each year, but 500 is still 500 too many.

That's not a function of light or heavy triggers. It's a function of piss poor handling, period.

God only knows where you get your numbers from. There has never been 500 ND's in a year in the NYPD, nor any number even REMOTELY close.
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Old 02-20-2012, 15:10   #63
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I tend to think maybe NYPD does need 12 or 13 pound triggers, let's make that 20 pound triggers. I would hate for them to point a gun at me with their finger probably on the trigger with anything less.
I think Mommy should take your keyboard away. Which of the trolls with a new screen name are YOU?
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Old 02-20-2012, 15:18   #64
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This issue perhaps is similar to Glock, where someone pulls the trigger then says the gun went off on its own. Glock offers different trigger weights if individuals or departments want a heavier pull. If Kahr doesn't offer the particular weight NYPD wants, I don't see how that makes Kahr a POS.
This.

And did anyone else have a physical reaction to the article's claim that the NYPD wants heavy triggers to "make police officers understand that shooting someone is a serious thing"? That was disgusting. If those jakhoffs believe that the weight of their trigger is responsible for teaching their officers to respect human life and the consequences of firing off lethal projectile weapons, every single administrator and policy maker at that department needs to be sacked and they need to start over.
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Old 02-20-2012, 15:22   #65
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This.

And did anyone else have a physical reaction to the article's claim that the NYPD wants heavy triggers to "make police officers understand that shooting someone is a serious thing"? That was disgusting. If those jakhoffs believe that the weight of their trigger is responsible for teaching their officers to respect human life and the consequences of firing off lethal projectile weapons, every single administrator and policy maker at that department needs to be sacked and they need to start over.

Read carefully. That is not a quote from the NYPD, that is a statement by the author of the article who is a boob.
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Old 02-20-2012, 15:46   #66
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The argument that they aren't gun people is not even close to valid. I'm not a shovel collector, but if I get paid to dig ditches I'd be expected to use one without hurting anyone. They are paid to perform a job. They should be safe and proficient with every tool that they have. Increase the minimum standards and they would have to up their game to qualify. The instructors can't force them to practice between quals, but they certainly can fail them if they don't perform or are unsafe.

Once again, it isn't a shortcoming of Kahr that the NYPD requires a terrible trigger. They spent a lot of time and money to develop a good trigger, why would they ruin it because certain people can't follow standard safety rules. The other companies you mention(Glock,S&W) can easily change their pull weight with different springs and connectors. The Kahr trigger is different and can't be made that heavy without other negative drawbacks.
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:00   #67
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The argument that they aren't gun people is not even close to valid. I'm not a shovel collector, but if I get paid to dig ditches I'd be expected to use one without hurting anyone. They are paid to perform a job. They should be safe and proficient with every tool that they have. Increase the minimum standards and they would have to up their game to qualify. The instructors can't force them to practice between quals, but they certainly can fail them if they don't perform or are unsafe.

Once again, it isn't a shortcoming of Kahr that the NYPD requires a terrible trigger. They spent a lot of time and money to develop a good trigger, why would they ruin it because certain people can't follow standard safety rules. The other companies you mention(Glock,S&W) can easily change their pull weight with different springs and connectors. The Kahr trigger is different and can't be made that heavy without other negative drawbacks.
It would be more accurate to say if you were a contractor you would know how to dig a ditch with a shovel but it isn't the only thing you need to know how to do or who to call to get it done.

Guns get used very infrequently in LE. Even pulling them to gain compliance or to search a building they aren't used very frequently. Ball point pens get used the most. Followed by compters. Do I need to know how to program my computer to use it?
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:05   #68
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He must own stock in Kahr or be a moonie. Only reason I can think of for such vituperation.
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:09   #69
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I trust Kahr more than the NYPD.
Thanks for playing......
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:22   #70
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IMHO it is about trigger pull. Glock did the NY spring thing for them. It is also the old school double action revolver pull that has them (NYPD) in this mind set. Lawyers and law suits scare the crap out of Police Depts.
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:39   #71
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Pull weight coulda been 2oz. doesn't matter. Finger OFF THE TRIGGER! I had an instructor @ a subgun operator class that used to keep his gun on full auto and preached trigger control for letting off 1,2,3 rds and such. He wasn't just yapping either. He had us all doing it at the end of the 5 day course. There was NEVER and ND in that class while I was there, and I'd not heard of one prior. If you have people bustin off shots accidentally, then they may was to re evaluate who they're letting carry guns.
Yes! With an MP5, it's easy! Next time I go to the range I'll try it with a M4.

Sounds like a FINGER problem.
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:45   #72
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Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW....
So what is Kahr's issue
Kahr's only "issue" might be that they don't want to screw up a safe and reliable trigger design to meet an arbitrary standard. Give the gun such a high trigger pull weight that you almost couldn't shoot it when you wanted to? Probably doesn't even fit within their trigger design parameters....

And I agree with the part in bold, "BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW...." Taken in the literal sense, that statement is likely true, with hiring quotas pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Now onto the next two pages of hilarity.

Nail
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Old 02-20-2012, 17:35   #73
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Do I need to know how to program my computer to use it?
Jeez, no one is asking LEOs to be gunsmiths, just proficient in handgun usage. Sure computers and pens get used more, but computers and pens don't kill people when you screw up.
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