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Old 02-19-2012, 09:18   #1
Nakanokalronin
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What's with testing HP ammo on 4 layers of denim?

I just bought an LCR and was checking around with what people are using for defense. I have a bunch of PDX-1 .38spl +P ammo that got good results with a single layer of denim and gel, bare gel and water jugs. I checkout Youtube and 2 guys have done gel tests with this round but they use either 2 or 4 layers of denim and got good penetration but no expansion.

I did some more searching and found some actual incidents where the PDX-1 .38spl was used in a defensive shooting out of snub. Not only did it get over 12" of penetration, but it expanded to over .62 and stopped the threat quickly.

Last time I checked, a pair of jeans is basically one layer of denim and a shirt is one layer of cotton. If someone wanted to test for jacket material or leather, why not use that on top of the gel instead of 4 layers of jean material? I don't think anyone wears 4 pairs of jeans nor do they wear 4 jean material shirts.

Am I over thinking this or is there some reason 4 layers of denim seems like an impractical test for expansion and clogging of the HP cavity? If you want to test for defense in winter, use a beat up old jacket if you want to keep it as real as possible.
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Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 02-19-2012 at 09:37.. Reason: spellcheck
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:30   #2
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Quote:
Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.
http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

The denim is used to simulate clothing and can have a very negative effect on expansion with some bullets. Of course that doesn't mean the bullet will not expand in real life.

Last edited by dkf; 02-19-2012 at 09:33..
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:07   #3
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Even the FBI heavy clothing test was inadequate to test expansion robustness. Here's the real story why 4 layer denim is the best benchmark.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...2/0604-02a.htm

Last edited by DRT; 02-19-2012 at 10:07..
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:09   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

The denim is used to simulate clothing and can have a very negative effect on expansion with some bullets. Of course that doesn't mean the bullet will not expand in real life.
It seems when it comes to wood, drywall and car door material, real case scenarios have been tested for this hard material.

When it comes to clothing, nobody seems to use anything but denim as a test. In reality, I'd like to see a test done with a single layer of denim, a test done with a cloth shirt and a test done with a winter and leather jacket. I wish I had a place to do this myself, but I don't. The material itself could be bought at a second hand store on the cheap and cut into smaller pieces for many tests like they do with the jeans.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:18   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Even the FBI heavy clothing test was inadequate to test expansion robustness. Here's the real story why 4 layer denim is the best benchmark.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...2/0604-02a.htm
Thanks for that link! Some good reading and it seems I WAS basically over thinking it. The thing is, even though it's not a realistic clothing barrier test, most take the failures to expand in 4 layers of denim as a bad HP bullet and check it off the list as an adequate SD load.

That link should be posted before any tests so the person reading or watching these test will not think what they're seeing is set in stone. I always wondered about the multiple layers of denim but I thought I'd finally ask about it.
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Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 02-19-2012 at 10:26..
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:05   #6
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Cause the BG might be wearing a denim coat, vest, shirt, and denim long johns. Course up here all that would be covered with a bear skin parka, so time to up the testing standards.
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Old 02-19-2012, 13:56   #7
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Yeah, the FBI Heavy Clothing protocol is closer to what some of you are saying (different materials instead of 4-layer denim)

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm
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Old 02-19-2012, 14:00   #8
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In case we are attacked by Canadians. Terrorists wearing the dreaded Canadian Tuxedo, jeans and denim jacket with denim shirt and vest.
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Old 02-19-2012, 14:12   #9
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Think of the 4-layer denim test as being an engineering "acid test".

There's been a correlation observed between hollowpoints which exhibit consistently robust expansion in the 4-layer test and those recovered from actual shootings. No guarantees, though.
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Old 02-19-2012, 17:49   #10
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It's a worst case scenario. If the bullet both expands and penetrates under 4 layers of denim....I'm using that bullet. You guys can use something else if you want to.
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