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Old 02-18-2012, 14:57   #41
Teecher45
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Some of both.
I do like to be able to identify what I am about to shoot, before I shoot.
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Old 02-18-2012, 16:04   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg View Post
Ooh, goody. I learned that slings are tacticool and not necessary if you know how to shoot properly. Ahem...
If I may, I think what he is trying to say is, no matter what kind of gear you add to your weapon, it does not replace the need for the basics of marksmanship: sight picture, sight alignment, breathing control, and trigger control.

As for a sling, It can be used as a shooting aid. Military Rifle Match competitors us e them to help with movement control. I learned how to use on that way when I was in the Marine Corps. At 100 yds Standing, 300 yds kneeling, and 500 yds prone, we used the M14 rifle sling on our M16A1 as a shooting aid. It, in no way, was a substitute for the basics.

As for myself, my father (former USMC drill Instructor, deceased) taught me at a very young age, the basics of marksmanship. Back in the mid to late '60s, there was no high tech gear like there is today. I learned to shoot a 1955 Colt Frontier Scout .22 SA and a '50s Remington Sportmaster .22LR bolt action rifle. The lessons he taught me at an early age have been invaluable. I try to pass on the same fundamentals to those I teach when I get the opportunity.
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Old 02-18-2012, 16:20   #43
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Quote:
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So would you rather go to air-to-air combat today and bet your life in a F-22 or a P-51?
Do your tactical modern guns fire maneuvering self-guided bullets that explode via range sensing computer chips?
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Old 02-18-2012, 19:53   #44
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Here's the irritating thing about some in the "anti-tactical" crowd. They repeatedly voice the incorrect observation that those that use things like optics, lasers, grips and such, use them because they have no shooting skills. They then go on to say how much better their shooting skills are than the tactical crowd, because they don't use "tactical" stuff on their weapons.

A smart and savvy person wants every possible advantage on their side, including good shooting skills. Adding things like RDSs, Holo-sights, VFGs, lasers, lights, are simply taking mechanical advantages that exist, and using them to compliment and enhance their skills.

This is not a black and white topic. Just because one chooses to take advantages available to them, does not mean that they don't posess the proper skills. I've seen plenty of "bare-bones", "anti-tactical" shooters that can't hit the broad-side of a barn. I've seen this just as often as one sees an uber-tactical weapon owning ninja who also can't hit the broad-side of a barn.
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Old 02-18-2012, 21:32   #45
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In my opinion (as the title says) I believe its all in what you are using your firearm for... For example if you are carrying for duty then a simple set of night sights should surfice... however if you are needing a home defense weapon, I believe that a good light/laser combo would be more than appropriate. By law you are required to positively identify your target before engaging, therefore the light will keep you from having to find a flashlight at 2am when some knuckle-head comes through your kitchen window, and the laser sight aimed high center mass on his chest will make him think twice before coming at you or your family members...
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Old 02-18-2012, 22:12   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock Fanatic View Post
By law you are required to positively identify your target before engaging, therefore the light will keep you from having to find a flashlight at 2am when some knuckle-head comes through your kitchen window, and the laser sight aimed high center mass on his chest will make him think twice before coming at you or your family members...
The same light will force You to cover with your muzzle anything that You will direct your light on, including your family members. Maybe a bit less tactical flashlight should be kept beside the gun instead?
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Old 02-18-2012, 23:00   #47
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Tactical is what you do with the weapon, not what you hang on it.
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Old 02-18-2012, 23:37   #48
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The same light will force You to cover with your muzzle anything that You will direct your light on, including your family members. Maybe a bit less tactical flashlight should be kept beside the gun instead?
I agree to an extent... however, I do have a flashlight beside my bed where I keep my gun at night because I dont yet have a tac-light... but when It came to me getting out of bed because someone was trying to get in the back door my first reaction was to grab my gun, wake my wife and tell her to call the police and then to the bedroom door where I could see down the main hallway and also both front and back doors... grabbing the flashlight didnt even occur to me until after the addreneline had wore off and I went back to my normal state of mind... my daughter is 6 and besides my wife and I and our 10 month old son (who isnt going anywhere by himself) she is the only other person in the house... so with the tac light/laser on the gun if I were to draw down on someone at "high center mass" it would be about a foot above her head, and in WORST case scenario she would have the muzzle on her for less then a split second before the weapon is lowered...

BUT to avoid all that we PRACTICE what to do if someone is trying to get in the house or is already in the house several times a month... I even have my wife comfortable in clearing the house when Im not home so even if my daughter came out of her bed she knows to stay in her room until either I or her mother go get her personally to avoid any more confusion in an already stressful situation... Another thing to consider is good trigger disipline (keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire)... I know my glock isnt going off until I pull the trigger which wouldnt happen until I completely Identify my target... I dont believe in accidental discharges... as the saying goes "guns dont kill people, PEOPLE kill people..."
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Old 02-18-2012, 23:49   #49
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You can put me squarely on the fence. I like both a fully decked out AR is cool but an old lever gun is dang pretty to me. It don't mean a thing when it comes to putting rounds on target though. When it comes to buying guns I like having the one light and laser type tactical rifle and handgun but I want a bunch of the old school to collect and have range fun.
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Old 02-19-2012, 00:12   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor View Post
I'm Old School Tactical.
Me too. I built and shot this today:

(...but I wll be installing a rail on it for nightstand/roadtrip duty)

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Old 02-19-2012, 01:20   #51
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I guess I grew up in the days of old school where killing Haji with an A2 and iron sights seemed to work well enough then as I'm sure it would today. When it comes to the "tacti-kewl" stuff, much like a warning label on a bottle of whiskey, I follow the "enjoy in moderation" line of thinking. My personal M-4gery is outfitted pretty much the same as the one I carried in Afghanistan with an M68, Matech BUIS, mainly empty Knights RAS (except for a flashlight) and the same Vickers sling I had on my issue M4. The idea of visible lasers (IR lasers combined with NVGs are another matter), bipods, tough-guy handles, off-set iron sights, chainsaw handles, and other junk on the other hand that adds a lot of bulk and weight for a minimal return in performance is the crap I can easily live without. Ah, I can hear it now though, "But, but, but...I won't look like an 'operator' without a ton of accessories tacked on my gun!" Know what, I knew a lot of the real "operators" over in the JSOC compound and I got news for you, most of them kept their rifles stripped down to bare minimum (regardless of what hollyweird would have you believe) rather than having to hump all that extra useless weight that slows you down.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:34   #52
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making bullets come out the pointy end, THAT'S tactical, everything else is just gravy.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:50   #53
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Quote:
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Me too. I built and shot this today:

(...but I wll be installing a rail on it for nightstand/roadtrip duty)
That is a very good pistol You have there
I've seen 1911's with the rails already.
Seriously that configuration didn't bother me much.
I'm not a fan, but as Glock Fanatic said - right preparation is everything. Works for him very well - I sure can see that.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:52   #54
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So, you're saying that a gun isn't "tactical" unless it has gadgets?

An M1 Garand isn't tactical any more even though it was used in a world war and two other minor wars plus who knows how many conflicts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Here's the irritating thing about some in the "anti-tactical" crowd. They repeatedly voice the incorrect observation that those that use things like optics, lasers, grips and such, use them because they have no shooting skills. They then go on to say how much better their shooting skills are than the tactical crowd, because they don't use "tactical" stuff on their weapons.

A smart and savvy person wants every possible advantage on their side, including good shooting skills. Adding things like RDSs, Holo-sights, VFGs, lasers, lights, are simply taking mechanical advantages that exist, and using them to compliment and enhance their skills.

This is not a black and white topic. Just because one chooses to take advantages available to them, does not mean that they don't posess the proper skills. I've seen plenty of "bare-bones", "anti-tactical" shooters that can't hit the broad-side of a barn. I've seen this just as often as one sees an uber-tactical weapon owning ninja who also can't hit the broad-side of a barn.
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:18   #55
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I guess I'm old school. I like my guns in blue steel and walnut, although I will accept stainless steel and hardwood on occassion.

I do have a muzzle-loader that's black and has a plastic stock though.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:04   #56
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
So, you're saying that a gun isn't "tactical" unless it has gadgets?

An M1 Garand isn't tactical any more even though it was used in a world war and two other minor wars plus who knows how many conflicts?
Correct. an M1 is now "old skool". But, I understand and approve of your sarcasm.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:27   #57
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It depends on what I am doing. When I was doing high risk warrants over and over again, I like an AR with an attached light, an electronic sight, a foregrip, and a VTAC sling. I like my shotgun with a 14 inch barrel, an attached light, and a one point sling. I like my handgun, in a Safariland drop holster, but pulled up higher than most people, with an attached light.

But, when I am out on weekends, shooting cans or whatever, I like a plain jane gun, with nothing but iron sights and a wooden stock. Maybe, because that's the way I grew up shooting and it brings back pleasant memories.

I have had enough days of shooting ARs and shotguns, all day (or days, sometimes), in tactical courses over the years, to have had the fun pretty much beat out of that.

Shooting cans back on a bayou, or some back forty somewhere is still fun.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:04   #58
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I hate the word tactical it has been so over used it means nothing.

To me the word tactical has become synonymous with mall ninja.

I like practical accessories on my guns that have real world uses.

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Old 02-19-2012, 07:18   #59
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It depends somewhat on the weapon. I like my AK's in both classic and tactical... AR's the same way (building an A1-style soon). However, I cherish weapons like my Browning .22 that was passed on to me from my dad, who had it passed on from his dad. I'll never even put a scope on it. I also love old-school lever guns and bolt guns.

I don't really care as long as it's functional. My AR has an AFG, red dot, light and flip up sights... all of that is a result of trying things out and finding out what works best for me (even though the rifle looks like a Magpul commercial ).

Whatever works for you. Screw what other people think
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:44   #60
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It's very easy to prove to yourself if you need some of the "tactical" stuff on your guns.
(I think the use of "tactical" all the time is a little silly)

Take note of how well you shoot during the day, including defense type shooting like fast aimed and point shooting on the move. Maybe throw in a little weak hand and shooting from unusual positions.


It's said that 70% of defense shooting take place in low light. Chances are if you are in a defense shooting it will be in low light.
So, now try your defense shooting, point shooting, etc, when the conditions are such as this.
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If you can do as well in low light (with a hand held light) as you do in daylight you do not need such as gun mounted lasers, gun mounted lights or laser/lights.





Personally I do far better in low light shooting using such as lasers and laser/lights than I shoot during daylight.
For instance, I pretty much suck shooting with a hand held light in low light. I can't begin to do such as this when shooting without the laser or laser/light in low light. So I mount lasers or laser/lights on everything, making fast accurate shooting in low light and dark child's play.
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