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Old 02-16-2012, 07:27   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Actually, even in your comment, you admit they do it for attention, though it falls into the semantics category.

As you said, some of them do it get the attention of the bad guys that might think twice about messing with them if they can see it. Others do it to get the attention of the media, the "shock factor", but both are actually doing it for SOME sort of attention.

I'm not making a judgment. Just saying that there IS attention-seeking involved. I would never open carry, even if it were legal, but that's my choice.
Exactly it is your choice as it is theirs. But do you carry concealed so a BG wouldn't know you were armed and you could then in turn shoot and kill them? I'm betting MOST concealed carriers don't want to have to shoot anyone. People who OC feel they are far less likely to have to use their gun in SD because the sight of their gun is a deterrent. And I can tell you the overwhelming majority of those who OC do it for that reason and not to be an "attention whore".
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Old 02-16-2012, 07:46   #77
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Originally Posted by firefighter4215 View Post
. Other times it may cause the criminal to identify you as the first target in an ambush. Overall I'm for it being legal, but very rarely exercise that particular right.

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I don't have a problem with it being legal at all. Personally I would be concerned with making myself a target as listed in your post. The only people I want to know that I have a gun is me and my family. Unfortunately for us any time someone calls 911 we have to go out. Many times it's just to tell the person you aren't doing anything wrong but we got a call. Have to see how people respond if/when we get OC. Do you have to go through classes for OC like Cc?



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Old 02-16-2012, 09:20   #78
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Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
I, for one, have a hard time figuring what Moneymaker really wants. I've been through a bag of pop corn to no avail.

Which part of Missouri do you live, MM?
That seems to be the problem - figuring out what he wants.

Let's break out MoneyMaker's questions in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Ok seein this is being a big issue with the starbuck crazed group,
  • What is your thoughts and reaction each time you get called on a man with gun call when it is to a place that does allow open carry?

  • Do you ticket the person who made the call ?

  • Do you ticket the store manager if he called and his store is not marked no open carry allowed?

  • Why do the police make a man who is sitting at a table having dinner with his family get up and go outside to check him out?

  • If it is legal to open carry then why do you go in and then bother this man ?
There is no simple answer to every question you asked. Each question requires answers to these questions: Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How, to be understood, to be answered.

Here's the example of that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by trdvet View Post
The person open carrying would be arrested unless they are a LEO or owner of the establishment.
See, a simple answer that omitted the Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How, to which you respond:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
So you are saying
  • if it is legal to open carry you will arrest the man?

  • Are you a police officer and if so what state?

  • What county?
G30Mike, who has been trying to help you throughout this thread, had a good response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by G30Mike View Post
Moneymaker...the responses you receive are going to all boil down to if its legal to OC in these certain officers jurisdictions.
Not alot of these guys are from MO.

ETA...And most of them probably aren't going to identify the jurisdiction they work in. :D
trdvet came back expanding his original comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by trdvet View Post
Open carry is not legal here. Assuming it was I would show up and talk to the complainant and see if anything else was happening besides a gun visible in a holster. If the manager wanted him gone then they can ask him to leave and would be arrested for trespass if he failed to comply.
Now, here is where your hostility begins to show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Yes but i stated if it is legal in the state or municipality,but as you see this officer already misread and jumped to the conclusion of aresting someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trdvet View Post
I didn't, it's just that you like asking narrow, leading scenarios and get confrontational when they don't fit whatever view you're trying to get across.

Am I being detained?
And trdvet nailed you on it...and you responded:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Sorry but i did state if its LEGAL

and you posted up and stated its not legal and you would arrest them,

then said its not legal in your state,

Well i was not asking about that as i know what happens,

Your not detained so your free to go

as i am looking for response from Officers that have this ongoing issue in Legal States
So you dismiss him...

Before dismissing trdvet you posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
I understand
  • if it is posted no guns allowed,well its there policy,

  • But if its legal to OC or CCW and the store is not posted say like Starbucks and then

    • police get the call of man or woman with gun,

    • they show up and

    • the person is legal

    • but store manager says yeah its ok by store policy but i want the person out as its disrupting my business,

  • Then they can be arrested for not leaving???
G30Mike answered
Quote:
Originally Posted by G30Mike View Post
Yep, if you're asked to leave and you refuse its called tresspassing.
Leave and call corporate if its that big of a deal. Avoid going to jail or having a summons written whenever possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Well mike now you see why i am not eye to eye about the photo ops and youtube crap over at the other site,

Seems even with OC
  • there will be a no win situation and

  • folks will be having issues even if

    • it is legal to oc and

    • corporate policy to oc in there stores

    • as its gonna ba catch 22 issue and

  • i think we will all be long gone before a real law states what alot of folks wish it to read.
Prior to that you offered your opinions and comments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
This is why i think
  • it should be a national open carry or

  • if it is going to be state by state that

    • every LE agency has to train and

    • have every LE employee sign off on a statement that they have read and understand the law on CCW and OC for Citizens.
Sorry but if
  • i was to OC and

    • its legal and

    • i gotta deal with being detained everytime i go out,

  • Then all i can say is

    • i sure dont want the OC law or

    • the Headaches of being detained,

    • Or get some Police Officer

      • having a bad day and

      • wanna beat you to the ground or

      • god forbid draw on you just cause he dont know the law or

      • is having a bad day!
Misconceptions...I've been OCing since November of '02 - never happened to me. Never happened to all but two or three GT members. If you compare the total number of OCers to the number who've had problems, acknowledging that even one is too many, that number would be an extremely small percentage of the OC population.

series1811 added:
Quote:
Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
You might be surprised at how few times we actually beat someone to the ground just because we are having a bad day.
Okay, back to your questions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
  • So does it take away time from your officers that could be doing something more important?

  • I mean is there any writing to the law in your state that has been published as to be distributed to Business owners,the general public ect so as not to take away more important response calls you may have ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
No you guys are not getting it at all,I am not here to argue,I asked
  • [if] it is legal to open carry and

  • you get a call with man with gun,what are you thinking more or less?

  • Why are you detaining say a man at gas pump getting gas if OC is Legal ?

Maybe that will make t easier to answer,I am really wondering
  • why all over these forums folks are being detained at locations that are not posted that OC or CCW is not allowed on there property or

  • if one is just say getting gas or standing on there own property.
I have a question about this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Sorry but i have no reason to get mad at Police Officers,I waterfowl hunt with several,every year for past 20 years,Please dont make statements like that you cant back up.
What do all your hunting buddies say about open carry?

How do they handle it?

How do they answer your questions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Thanks to whom have replied with a serious answer,

To the others who say i am trolling
  • it seems you dont have a answer or

  • may not be a police officer,
Okay, going to stop here to call you out for trolling... You keep alleging that those participating on the Cop Talk Forum are not in law enforcement. You are wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
I am debating this with guys on a open carry forum as
  • they seem to me that they are just chest thumpers

  • wanting there group pics taken all the time at starbucks ect.
I really wish all your posts on OCDO were still there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Myself i see it as a deturant and wont get the OC law passed here in missouri,
Are you saying that open carry group gatherings are...well, what are you saying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Another question i asked them was
  • do they know 3 types of weapon retention,

  • Do they train for weapon retention and

  • do they fell the need that anyone who Open Carry's should pass a 40 hour course on weapon retention training before just hanging a gun on there side and walking around like John Wayne.
That went over well on OCDO, didn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
I want to thank you sir for your answer and i respect what you have said.
Good...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1401819 just example

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...rs-Red-Lobster this guy
  • seems to be a attention getter so

    • it dont help the issue,

    • detain or not

    • but your thoughts on how he is acting about OC all around?
Do you want an official answer or a personal opinion?

When asked about your banning from OCDO...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Well if i was it is because
  • i dont agree with the missouri guys,

  • I am a missouri resident and

  • i am for open carry,but

    • i think there should be weapon retention training and

    • certain holster requirements,

    • I dont like that guys wanna parade with video cameras with there 6 inch revolvers hanging off there sides,or

    • have meet and greet at a establishment and then line all the gun toters up to take pictures just to say hey look what we did!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
[snip]
__________________________________________________________________________
Above this line is a lobbyist so he says not myself

This is there top guy on that site and if you read it well,he even states he was video taping the event,

Seems he always wants to have a weapon on and a camera running,

then promotes himself as the great Leader to get a new gun law passed,

To me and if i was a LE i would not wanna have to deal with fellows like this period!!!!!!!!!
Well, yes, leaders of OC groups do seem to be more outgoing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
I am done with the politics of OC,Fair well

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
its just a dead horse subject i suppose
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Thats my point i started but it seems others just wanna post TROLL about the subject,How many of them fat little show boats you think have a clue as to how to use weapon retention to save there life or to keep someone from taken there weapon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
Russ i meant the video that was presented,Geez you all want to find **** to point out about everything besides what the topic was,I have come to the conclusion you are some different folks with high strung attitudes,So long Have a good time pretending to be what you cant be.
Things might have gone better had you made yourself a bit easier to understand - just constructive criticism based on 9-years of reading a few posts and seeing the quality of responses they receive based on the posts being understandable.

Yeah, this is long, and you'll probably ignore it anyway, but, if you do reply, do pretend you're writing a response to questions posed by your boss at work.
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Last edited by RussP; 02-16-2012 at 09:26..
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:34   #79
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
That seems to be the problem - figuring out what he wants.

Let's break out MoneyMaker's questions in this thread.There is no simple answer to every question you asked. Each question requires answers to these questions: Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How, to be understood, to be answered.

Here's the example of that:
See, a simple answer that omitted the Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How, to which you respond:G30Mike, who has been trying to help you throughout this thread, had a good response:trdvet came back expanding his original comment:Now, here is where your hostility begins to show.And trdvet nailed you on it...and you responded:So you dismiss him...

Before dismissing trdvet you posted:G30Mike answeredPrior to that you offered your opinions and comments:
Misconceptions...I've been OCing since November of '02 - never happened to me. Never happened to all but two or three GT members. If you compare the total number of OCers to the number who've had problems, acknowledging that even one is too many, that number would be an extremely small percentage of the OC population.

series1811 added:Okay, back to your questions...I have a question about this:What do all your hunting buddies say about open carry?

How do they handle it?

How do they answer your questions?[INDENT]Okay, going to stop here to call you out for trolling... You keep alleging that those participating on the Cop Talk Forum are not in law enforcement. You are wrong.[INDENT]I really wish all your posts on OCDO were still there...[INDENT]Are you saying that open carry group gatherings are...well, what are you saying?That went over well on OCDO, didn't it?

Good...

Do you want an official answer or a personal opinion?

When asked about your banning from OCDO...

Well, yes, leaders of OC groups do seem to be more outgoing.Things might have gone better had you made yourself a bit easier to understand - just constructive criticism based on 9-years of reading a few posts and seeing the quality of responses they receive based on the posts being understandable.

Yeah, this is long, and you'll probably ignore it anyway, but, if you do reply, do pretend you're writing a response to questions posed by your boss at work.
Russ, YOU have the patience of Job.. I too am interested to see the response..
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:48   #80
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:33   #81
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Wow Russp good job.

money maker is slang for a type of donkey, and I have to deal with people like that too often and don't have the patience to keep giving this guy a chance to see what he is really about. Don't want to go after a guy if he is being sinscere but I have a feeling that this donkey is a troll, and I try and trust my feelings.

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Old 02-16-2012, 11:05   #82
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Well you wanna name call me?You wanna sit here and try to figure out scenarios as you dont have any answers?It shows that there was only 2 that posted that knew the law and how to uphold it and there judgement call.The rest of you are just ridding the back end of RussP jean bottoms and slapping yourselves on the back.I have seen so many forums like this and dont care to be part of it,So i hope you ban me from your litlte group donut shop and you all can get on with your puke of a life and scrutinize the next person that comes in here to post a citizen to cop question.
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:15   #83
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Lord, just when you start to pull yourself out of the (poop)hole, you start typing . . .

I'll give you this: caramel corn is coming next.
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:16   #84
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Well you wanna name call me?You wanna sit here and try to figure out scenarios as you dont have any answers?It shows that there was only 2 that posted that knew the law and how to uphold it and there judgement call.The rest of you are just ridding the back end of RussP jean bottoms and slapping yourselves on the back.I have seen so many forums like this and dont care to be part of it,So i hope you ban me from your litlte group donut shop and you all can get on with your puke of a life and scrutinize the next person that comes in here to post a citizen to cop question.

You didn't post a question. You posted a challenge. You had your mind made up as to the answer you wanted/expected to hear and now you're all pissy that folks didn't fall all over you agreeing with you.

I'm not a cop, as I've CLEARLY stated several times. But the LEO professionals on here have always been just that - professional - any time I've asked a question. I've never been accused of trolling these forums because I don't set expectations for what I think SHOULD be posted.

Every time you post, you seem to be getting more and more belligerent. I can only assume that's because you've been called out time and time again.

But, hey, I shouldn't worry about it, right? Doesn't matter what I say because you've been "done" with this thread 2 or 3 times, so you won't even see this.
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:29   #85
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Originally Posted by Morris View Post
Lord, just when you start to pull yourself out of the (poop)hole, you start typing . . .

I'll give you this: caramel corn is coming next.
Hell, I'm thinking about grilling burgers and opening a stand!
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:57   #86
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Well you wanna name call me?
Well, I did warn you when I told you that when people ask me for advice about choosing a screen name, I suggest they check the online urban/slang dictionaries, just to make sure their name is not misinterpreted.
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You wanna sit here and try to figure out scenarios as you dont have any answers?
Don't have answers to what? As I said, "Each question requires answers to these questions: Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How, to be understood, to be answered." Yes, scenarios are necessary to provide specific answers.
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It shows that there was only 2 that posted that knew the law and how to uphold it and there judgement call.
I believe the others chose not to participate based on your previous posts here on Glock Talk.
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Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
The rest of you are just ridding the back end of RussP jean bottoms and slapping yourselves on the back.
I'm just a tolerated guest here...
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Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
I have seen so many forums like this and dont care to be part of it,
Your choice, but if you stick around and do a whole lot of reading of past threads here in Cop Talk with an open mind you'll learn a great deal. Go at it with a closed mind, and well...
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Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
So i hope you ban me from your litlte group donut shop
No, in my opinion, and Eric or an admin may disagree, banning isn't warranted.
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Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
and you all can get on with your puke of a life
How many of your hunting buddies are in law enforcement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyMaker View Post
and scrutinize the next person that comes in here to post a citizen to cop question.
No doubt, they will when warranted...
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:20   #87
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:44   #88
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I get the distinct impression that Butt started this thread for the same tired reason so common to all trolls: Misery loves company. He is obviously trying to drag others down to his level. I'll pass.

Even so, I'll offer a couple thoughts for others who might be reading. First, to many seasoned thugs, that OC'd handgun is nothing more than a challenge. You might as well wear a sign on your back that says, "I dare you". Also, based on my albeit limited experience, most seasoned thugs don't just zero in on the obvious; they also look for things they might have missed at first glance. How that person is carrying the gun (if that is the case), how they walk and handle themselves, their age, height, stature, perceived state of health, perceived mindset, etc. That OC'd weapon is not necessarily a deterrent to everyone, and also not necessarily a challenge to everyone. It does, however, stick out like a turd in a swimming pool.

As most here know, I work in the slammer, and have a fan club on the street. I can legally carry concealed on a CCW permit, or OC if I so desire. The only time I choose to OC is in the woods at times.

If someone lives in a place where OC is the only option, it might make more sense. Around these parts, it is not necessary, and, quite frankly, as a private citizen (which is basically what I am off duty), I don't care for it. But to each their own.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:53   #89
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Even so, I'll offer a couple thoughts for others who might be reading.
Thank you....
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Old 02-16-2012, 13:01   #90
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As most here know, I work in the slammer, and have a fan club on the street. I can legally carry concealed on a CCW permit, or OC if I so desire. The only time I choose to OC is in the woods at times.
I OC frequently, when and where appropriate. There are a few times when I do not OC. One is when I am socializing in public with off duty cops. When they are in uniform, I open carry. When they are not in uniform, I carry concealed because of the part in bold. I do not want my openly carried pistol jogging some asshat's memory that the guys with me are cops, the cops who arrested them, testified against them, shot them...whatever.

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Old 02-16-2012, 13:09   #91
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I OC frequently, when and where appropriate. There are a few times when I do not OC. One is when I am socializing in public with off duty cops. When they are in uniform, I open carry. When they are not in uniform, I carry concealed because of the part in bold. I do not want my openly carried pistol jogging some asshat's memory that the guys with me are cops, the cops who arrested them, testified against them, shot them...whatever.

One of the many good things about this forum is, most of us can politely agree to disagree, and remain friends. I have shared my thoughts, you have shared yours, and it's all good. Why do some people find that concept so hard to grasp?
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Old 02-16-2012, 13:21   #92
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One of the many good things about this forum is, most of us can politely agree to disagree, and remain friends. I have shared my thoughts, you have shared yours, and it's all good. Why do some people find that concept so hard to grasp?
You ought to know from working inside; some people just itch for a fight.
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Old 02-16-2012, 14:02   #93
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You ought to know from working inside; some people just itch for a fight.
Yes, and very few of them seem to ever come to the realization that they are their own worst enemy.

Hubris is a yatch.
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Old 02-16-2012, 17:35   #94
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RussP, will you please break down every post in CT for us? Reading every post is too yesterday.
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Old 02-16-2012, 17:54   #95
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Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
Yes, and very few of them seem to ever come to the realization that they are their own worst enemy.

Hubris is a yatch.
Always the other guy's fault, too.

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Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 02-16-2012, 18:06   #96
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Originally Posted by nikerret View Post
RussP, will you please break down every post in CT for us? Reading every post is too yesterday.
I have a response for you, but I'd have to report my post for multiple rules violations - language, rude and definitely insulting, etc. - and recommend banning myself.
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Old 02-16-2012, 19:05   #97
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I want in!!

Being from Missouri, I can tell you why I'd respond. Because someone called. That's why.

An anecdote if I may:
One might I went to our local walmart for an unrelated call. Being situationally aware, I hear someone charging up behind me. Like walking at a slow jog pace. I notice the guy is carrying a gun but I didn't recognize him as one of our local cops. My hand mind you has migrated toward my gun because of this guy charging toward me with a gun and when I asked if he was okay he stared past me. Two things that are pre attack indicators. He asked if he was being detained and I said no but I continued to watch him in the store because I flat out did not like what I saw.

I saw him outside the store and he talked with me consensually. He was still pompous and acted as though his actions in no way could have been seen as aggressive.

I encourage citizens to Use their rights. I use my rights that are limited by my agency and position as well. I also would offer this solution. Don't want to talk to the cops, don't do things that attract attention to yourself.


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Old 02-16-2012, 19:28   #98
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Am I being detained?
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Old 02-16-2012, 19:46   #99
G30Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBaird22 View Post
I want in!!

Being from Missouri, I can tell you why I'd respond. Because someone called. That's why.

An anecdote if I may:
One might I went to our local walmart for an unrelated call. Being situationally aware, I hear someone charging up behind me. Like walking at a slow jog pace. I notice the guy is carrying a gun but I didn't recognize him as one of our local cops. My hand mind you has migrated toward my gun because of this guy charging toward me with a gun and when I asked if he was okay he stared past me. Two things that are pre attack indicators. He asked if he was being detained and I said no but I continued to watch him in the store because I flat out did not like what I saw.

I saw him outside the store and he talked with me consensually. He was still pompous and acted as though his actions in no way could have been seen as aggressive.

I encourage citizens to Use their rights. I use my rights that are limited by my agency and position as well. I also would offer this solution. Don't want to talk to the cops, don't do things that attract attention to yourself.


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Some people don't know how to behave in public whether they carry a gun or not. Your response seems appropriate for that situation.

Personally I wouldn't ever do some dumb **** like that. Probably be a quick way to get shot. I try to avoid police confrontations as much as I can, and I'm respectful to them as long as I'm not automatically marked as a criminal.

When asked for ID, I'm not the guy who asks if he's being detained unless the officer is being rude and throwing around his opinion in an "official" way. I would rather just say here's my ID, check me out, I'm a good guy, and be on my way. I've only been stopped a couple of times, and that's pretty much how it goes. I don't want to sit there and play street lawyer and risk taking a ride in a patrol car. I don't like jail, and I respect a LEO's job.

Would juat like to add a thanks to the officers here on the forum for everything they do day to day. Thanks guys!
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Old 02-16-2012, 20:05   #100
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I'm old and feeble. I need the big tactical advantage of concealed carry. I don't like the attention OC draws to all who do it.

I only own one gun. That's all I need.
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