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Old 02-01-2012, 16:29   #1
DrtyHarry
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Can you identify these two firearms?

I came across these two very old firearms wrapped up in a blanket in my grandfather's attic. They are extremely old, these are not Italian knock offs. I can tell from the age of the wood and steel that these are real old. I'd ask my grandfather, but he is no longer with us. Nobody in the family knew he had these. He had a large collection on display, but these two were in the attic for many many years....I think he had forgotten all about them.

In any case, I'd like to get as much info as I can about them. If anyone can help me out, I'd really appreciate it. I just found them and did not clean them up, and at the same time, and can't find any stamps of any kind on either of them. Thanks in advance!


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Old 02-01-2012, 16:32   #2
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top two pictures are of the dreaded red "X"

last pic is of a cap fired double barreled shotgun. It should have (and appears to have) a ramming rod between the barrels.

Without markings, it would be pretty hard to identify but it is really neat. If nothing else, it would make a GREAT fireplace gun
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Old 02-01-2012, 16:34   #3
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^I think I fixed it....




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Old 02-01-2012, 16:34   #4
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You may have to pull the barrels and look on the bottom for maker's or proof marks.

Other than that, I can't help with ID.

Good luck.
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Old 02-01-2012, 16:37   #5
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You may have to pull the barrels and look on the bottom for maker's or proof marks.

Other than that, I can't help with ID.

Good luck.
They are VERY fragile and don't know if I trust myself to do so. If there are proof marks, I would find them under the barrels? Thanks.




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Old 02-01-2012, 18:26   #6
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Anyone? I know nothing about these old anchors. I'm guessing the weird looking ax like stock is there for when you just spent your round and don't have time to reload...it's heavy as hell and I'm guessing it's designed this way so you can use the but as an instrument to knock someones head off. I've never seen a stock like this and I have been looking for a long time.

As for the double barrel rifle, again....no clue. If these guns are VERY old, is it possible that they wouldn't have any markings what so ever? Can anyone else suggest where else I could possibly look to get some more info on these rifles?? Thanks!



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Old 02-01-2012, 18:48   #7
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25 years ago my Grandparents left me a percussion cap double barrel like yours and a flintlock musket. Back then you had to use the library, no internet. I know, stone age! I found Parker on the shotgun and got excited, but the famous Parker brothers never made a muzzle loader. Turned out to be made in Belguim around 1840 and imported under that name. I cleaned the flintlock and found Gandon on the lock plate. Peter Gandon and his son (also Peter) were London gunsmiths. Mine is a mid 18th century fowling piece (what would become shotguns) most likley made by the son and carried by someone across the Atlantic...by sail! Every time I pick it up my imagination wanders. Start looking into yours!
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Old 02-01-2012, 19:05   #8
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Thanks! I guess I'll start to slowly clean them up and look closer for a stamp or a name of some sort. I wish my grandfather had told me about them, this way I would know their history. I've been looking ALL over the internet and I can't find anything about them. I figured I'd post here because of all the traffic. I'll take a better look at the flintlock and hope to see something. Again, thank you.




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Old 02-01-2012, 22:29   #9
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I just realized I posted the same picture twice. The second rifle is now up there, sorry about that! There has to be someone here that knows what these things are.



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Old 02-01-2012, 22:53   #10
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You should refinish it with duracoat camo, add some rails and an ACOG and you'll be in with the cool kids.
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Old 02-01-2012, 22:57   #11
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While the top pic is definitely a black powder shot gun of some sort (sorry to state the obvious), I can't tell you anything about it. Although, it may just be a precussion double rifle... Check the bores to see if they're rifled. Love the patina, though...

*Edit to say: Just now read your above post^ where you actually said the double was a 'rifle.' Sorry...

I just read an article, however, that talked about the second gun... While I don't think I can readily lay my hands on it at this moment, I'll look for it and get back with you. If I remember right, it's an Afghani musket, of some sort--the type of which was used against the British when they attempted to expand their sphere of enfluence in that country during the Victorian era.

One thing I agree with you on... Both are very old. I would NOT take them apart without, at least, having them checked over by a good smith first.

Just my .02 cents.

-----

This just in... (I love a good mystery-- Guess I just couldn't let it go.) Your second gun is an AFGHAN PERCUSSION CAMEL GUN. There are a couple of (imo) bad pics in this link...

...while this site calls it an Afghan "Khyber Pass" Flintlock Jezail Rifle.

It's a cool legacy that your grandfather left you. Take good care of them.
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Old 02-01-2012, 22:57   #12
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Boise Gun Company has a similar rifle to the bottom one with the funky stock. I think that it was one of those Arabian/Afghani types.
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Old 02-01-2012, 22:58   #13
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I'm going to make a wild guess and say the flintlock is intended for a horse-soldier. Persian.....India......something like that.

I can't remember where, but at sometime or another, I've seen something similar......I'm no source of historical firearms, so what I'm saying means very little. Just someone who is interested in all types of firearms.

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Old 02-01-2012, 23:16   #14
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Here's what Wikipedia says about it... Unfortunately, I can't get the link to work.

The jezail in the Anglo-Afghan Wars (1839–42; 1878–80; 1919):

"During this period the jezail was the primary ranged weapon of Afghan warriors and was used with great effect against British troops. British Brown Bess smoothbore muskets were effective at only 150 yards and accurate at 50 yards. Because of their advantage in range, Afghan rebels typically used the jezail from the tops of cliffs along valleys and defiles during ambushes. This tactic repeatedly devastated the British during their doomed retreat from Kabul to Jalalabad. Despite the advantages over the Brown Bess, British forces were typically able to defeat jezail armed Afghans when they fought on relatively flat terrain.

In the First Anglo-Afghan War the British established a cantonment outside of Kabul with dirt walls approximately waist high. Surrounding the cantonment were several abandoned forts which, although out of range of British muskets, were close enough for jezail fire. When ghazi and other Afghan forces besieged Kabul and the cantonment, they occupied the forts and used them to snipe British forces from a safe range."


The jezail in British literature:

"The jezail is most famous, at least in Western literature, as the weapon which wounded Dr. Watson—the fictional biographer of the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes—in the Battle of Maiwand during his military service in Afghanistan. In A Study in Scarlet Watson mentions being wounded in the shoulder.[2] However, in The Sign of the Four Watson gives the location of the wound as in his leg.[3] In The Noble Bachelor Watson refers to the Jezail bullet being "in one of my limbs." These discrepancies have caused debate by Sherlock Holmes fans about which of these locations is the "correct" location of the wound."
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:23   #15
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Thank you so very much guys!! How you found that info is amazing....I've been looking at historical firearms for a while and couldn't find anything. So it's a "jezail". That's some very interesting stuff!!! Now I wonder how this rifle ended up in my grandfather's attic.

I actually have another one that is very much the same, just shorter in length. I don't have any routs to those middle eastern countries, I'm Greek. Maybe my grandfather bought them and hid them away and perhaps brought them with him when he immigrated to the US....not sure why he never showed anyone or put them on display with some other pieces of his collection.

No...I won't dare take them apart. I just have to find a gunsmith that I can trust to take a look at it, as it really does need some cleaning up. I wonder what these things are worth? Are there a lot of them floating around out there? Thanks so much for the wealth of info!



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Old 02-02-2012, 03:44   #16
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That is indeed a jezail or equivalent (similar weapons, different names in different countries). Not necessarily Afghan, as that type stock can be found on a variety of Arab/Turkish weapons of the time and older (matchlocks) having handled a few.

Some of them were European locks and barrels on local stocks. Most jezails are pretty much unique, even if they got made in something resembling a factory, guns back then weren't perfectly interchangeable.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:43   #17
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Grampa passed , odd old guns found in attic wrapped up, why do I feel like I'm watching Pawn Stars..

Now you gotta go hawk'm for half the value.

Seriously pretty cool find, sorry for you loss.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:07   #18
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Originally Posted by DrtyHarry View Post
Thank you so very much guys!! How you found that info is amazing....I've been looking at historical firearms for a while and couldn't find anything. So it's a "jezail". That's some very interesting stuff!!! Now I wonder how this rifle ended up in my grandfather's attic.

I actually have another one that is very much the same, just shorter in length. I don't have any routs to those middle eastern countries, I'm Greek. Maybe my grandfather bought them and hid them away and perhaps brought them with him when he immigrated to the US....not sure why he never showed anyone or put them on display with some other pieces of his collection.

No...I won't dare take them apart. I just have to find a gunsmith that I can trust to take a look at it, as it really does need some cleaning up. I wonder what these things are worth? Are there a lot of them floating around out there? Thanks so much for the wealth of info!



Harry
I'd think twice about cleaning them up. If they are worth anythng, cleaning them up could potentially destroy their value
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:21   #19
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I'd think twice about cleaning them up. If they are worth anythng, cleaning them up could potentially destroy their value
I understand you. I really just want to clean them up to the point to where I could see some stamps or markings....not a complete make over. Anyway, I decided I'm going to try and locate an antique firearm smith and see what he has to say about them. I could only wish there was a pawn shop like the one on TV that has experts come in and look at them. These things are located in NJ right now....and it's probably illegal to clean them here because NJ is the armpit of the world. Anyone know of someone that can help me out that is in the tri-state area? Like that historian on Pawn Stars with the funny hat!

I'm glad I learned a little something about the jezail, thank you all so much. I know I had family in Greece and Cyprus that were in the military during the war and Turkish occupation of Greece. Perhaps Grandpa took them off one of those Turks? He had bullet holes in his leg and LOTS of amazing stories.

Can anyone "guesstimate" what these things sell for? I have other guns from my grandfather, if these are worth anything....I wouldn't mind letting the go. Thanks again fellas.



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Old 02-02-2012, 12:57   #20
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http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm
Bottom of page mentions $200-$400, but not being very desired.

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