Defensive thought process

barefoot · 01-31-2012, 14:08

I haven't seen any discussion in the regard, but if I missed it, please point me in the right direction.

What I'd like to discuss/develop is a checklist of items to be marked off mentally before drawing and shooting. Specifically in a public area where conditions are uncontrolled.

Let's say (God forbid) you're present at the next Jared Loughner incedent. You're armed. You hear shots, you become aware of nearby, ongoing commotion, you ID a shooter/perpetrator. What thought process do you go through before drawing and firing?

My thoughts:
Look for Police
Look for film crew
If neither of those are present, start thinking tactically, ranges, backstops, co-conspirators etc.
What else should you check?
I hope this doesn't come off as mall-ninja-ish, I'm looking for serious discussion, even though it's not likely to happen to me. (except that we hear about crap like this in the news far too often)

rta108 · 01-31-2012, 15:34

delete.

SpringerTGO · 01-31-2012, 15:49

Look for cover. Look for an escape route.

fastbolt · 01-31-2012, 16:08

Get some real training.

Otherwise, risk being overcome by events for which you may well lack a foundation of legal knowledge, training, understanding and experience.

You can often hear folks discuss their understanding (and often misunderstanding) of when they think it might be lawful (excusable & justified) to use deadly force, but not nearly as often discuss whether it might also be necessarily appropriate for the totality of the circumstances.

Getting some real training is often a good place to start.

You'll notice that they no longer just hand guns, badges & car keys out to our cops without having given them exposure to some training, right?

guitarded_1 · 01-31-2012, 17:29

Unless you have trained a lot, prepare to have very little in the way of conscious thought process. When a full adrenaline dump is underway, your mind will essentially vomit out a response. If you decide to engage, you will hopefully have the presence of mind to at least assess who is the bad guy.

It's not much different that someone grabbing you when you are walking out of the grocery store and throwing you against a wall. Without training, you won't be considering openings, angles, technique, etc. It will be fight or flight - and it's pretty much guaranteed to be sloppy as hell.

Train, train and train if you really want to be ready for something.

TDC20 · 01-31-2012, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by barefoot

Let's say (God forbid) you're present at the next Jared Loughner incedent. You're armed. You hear shots, you become aware of nearby, ongoing commotion, you ID a shooter/perpetrator. What thought process do you go through before drawing and firing?

Make sure the guy you are targeting isn't the CCW guy who just took out a "Jared Loughner" type maniac. If you see the whole thing happen, that's one thing, but just responding to shots fired, how do you know who fired the shots? Maybe someone with a CCW was being robbed and just took care of the situation. Maybe it's a plainclothes or off-duty LEO that just stopped a drive-by shooter.

If you're not 100% sure of who did what, who is the bad guy and who might be the good guy, you had best wait to see what develops. Especially if two guys are trading shots and you don't know why. Obviously if someone is shooting unarmed innocents, the intent and actions are fairly easy to judge. But even then, you can't un-shoot someone, so better be darn sure you know what is going on.

Also keep in mind that once you draw your gun, you may become a target for another CCW shooter or for cops who are trying to stop the armed confrontation. They don't know you or what your role is in the commotion. This type of friendly fire does happen.

cowboy1964 · 01-31-2012, 18:07

Even off duty cops sometimes get shot by mistake.

bustedknee · 01-31-2012, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by barefoot

....Let's say (God forbid) you're present at the next Jared Loughner incedent. You're armed. You hear shots, you become aware of nearby, ongoing commotion, you ID a shooter/perpetrator....

Not yet a self defense situation.

guitarded_1 · 01-31-2012, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

Even off duty cops sometimes get shot by mistake.

Yup

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1187367.html

barefoot · 02-01-2012, 06:34

Excellent discussion, thanks!

I guess it's this kind of deranged lunatic that gets under my skin - someone in a fit of random violence who brings an end to good people who deserve a chance to live. And it's possibly a foolish notion that I could make a difference in such a situation. And probably one of the least likely scenarios that any one of us would have to face, and much less cut-and-dried than a self-defense situation. Your suggestions are well-heeded. Keep 'em coming.

***HerrGlock*** · 02-01-2012, 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by barefoot

Excellent discussion, thanks!

I guess it's this kind of deranged lunatic that gets under my skin - someone in a fit of random violence who brings an end to good people who deserve a chance to live. And it's possibly a foolish notion that I could make a difference in such a situation. And probably one of the least likely scenarios that any one of us would have to face, and much less cut-and-dried than a self-defense situation. Your suggestions are well-heeded. Keep 'em coming.

Unless the person is actively threatening YOU, find cover (something that will stop bullets) and keep really good track of what's going on so you can tell the cops when they get there.

If the person is threatening YOU, then and only then should you do anything else.

It's obvious you've not done a lot of force on force and single shooter stuff. Stay out of it unless YOU are in danger of being killed.

happyguy · 02-01-2012, 07:15

Get off the X.

Get farther off the X.

Get really really far off the X.

Do the above at high speed.

Regards,
Happyguy

douggmc · 02-01-2012, 08:45

The first question should be what are your state's laws regarding deployment of lethal force. Is it allowable in defense of someone else? Due you have the duty to retreat? Etc.

After ensuring that you understand those well, the next question is what is your PERSONAL threshold for deploying lethal force and is it higher than perhaps the law allows. For example, your state may allow use if deadly force to stop a violent crime against someone else, however are you willing/able to do so?

Both those questions need to be answered in every civilian carrier of a weapon as soon as you decide to strap on (not when you encounter situation).

Me ... Personally ... My state's laws allow more than what I am personally willing to do. I am not a LEO, nor do I want to be. I am not a hero. I would like to think my ego would stay out of a decision like that. I will not deploy in defense of others (only myself and my family). I will escape if I can safely do so (no "standing my ground" as my state permits). These are my personal positions and they are of a higher threshold than my state allows.

So ... In your example of the Loughner crime, I would be running in the other direction to escape if at all possible.

Pierre! · 02-01-2012, 09:21

Get Off The X and then assess...

What's in the hands?

Then....

Get Off The X and then assess...

What's in the hands?

Rinse and repeat as needed...

Patrick

Rumbler_G20 · 02-01-2012, 09:34

The "correct answers" to this discussion are highly geographically, training and whether you are a sheep or a sheepdog, dependent.

The only universal is this:

"The only substitute for professional training is on the job training."

And learning when and how and IF to gunfight during a gunfight is . . . . . . probably not the best approach.

Bruce M · 02-01-2012, 16:46

My thought unless there is a specific legal obligation to(attemot to) apprehend the guy in this situation as much distance as possible away from him is the best option.

ijacek · 02-01-2012, 17:19

Like some others have already said, find cover, observe, communicate with 911, in a nutshell become a best witness you can be. Unless of course you are staring down the barrel of the bad guy's gun.

Remember that Concealed Carrying of a firearm comes with great responsibility. The simple fact that just because you have a CCW and the firearm on your person, does not automatically give you a free pass at stopping any and all encountered conflicts. That's what the law enforcement is for. And trust you me, situation like that, they are coming, and they are coming in HOT. Anybody with a firearm in this predicament, in the best case scenario, will be quickly detained by means of not so gentle prone handcuffing.

Instead of when/if-ing about your response, practice avoidance and get some quality training! And whatever you do, don't go looking for firefights!

liberty addict · 02-01-2012, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijacek

Like some others have already said, find cover, observe, communicate with 911, in a nutshell become a best witness you can be. Unless of course you are staring down the barrel of the bad guy's gun.

Remember that Concealed Carrying of a firearm comes with great responsibility. The simple fact that just because you have a CCW and the firearm on your person, does not automatically give you a free pass at stopping any and all encountered conflicts. That's what the law enforcement is for. And trust you me, situation like that, they are coming, and they are coming in HOT. Anybody with a firearm in this predicament, in the best case scenario, will be quickly detained by means of not so gentle prone handcuffing.

Instead of when/if-ing about your response, practice avoidance and get some quality training! And whatever you do, don't go looking for firefights!

Well stated, but what if you're in McDonald's with your family and Huberty comes in hosing down EVERYBODY -- you had best be fast and accurate if you are to survive. Then again, Huberty likely doesn't strike where there is shall-issue CCW. He might not care if he lives but I don't think the mass murderer likes being struck with only 2 people shot.

On the other hand, the guy we were discussing did his thing in AZ -- I guess he came "close" to getting capped but not quite.

Bill Lumberg · 02-03-2012, 10:22

Much as with a nuclear threat, you want to gain time, distance, and shielding. Only if you cannot decrease your risk through increasing those does your ccw weapon come into play.

RoundBrown · 02-03-2012, 11:15

There is a split second when the conscious you, the one reading this at this moment is involved in the thought process. After that Instincts take over and your just there for the ride. Depending on you training and the relativity of the incident you will either go into a flight mode or fight mode. Most people will not go into fight mode initially and thats understandable most people arent exposed to unexpected gun shots or weapons being pointed at them on regular basis.I can tell you that with proper training you will act accordingly and when its all said and done you wonder what the hell just happened and how/why did I just do that. Gun fights are an interesting thing and you can fantasize all you want about what you would do in this or that situation. But the reality is you dont know what you will do. All I know is that my instincts and training will take over, my conscious self (The one here typing right now) is just along for the ride. Hope this makes sense

Pop Smoke · 02-03-2012, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by barefoot

I haven't seen any discussion in the regard, but if I missed it, please point me in the right direction.

What I'd like to discuss/develop is a checklist of items to be marked off mentally before drawing and shooting. Specifically in a public area where conditions are uncontrolled.

Let's say (God forbid) you're present at the next Jared Loughner incedent. You're armed. You hear shots, you become aware of nearby, ongoing commotion, you ID a shooter/perpetrator. What thought process do you go through before drawing and firing?

My thoughts:
Look for Police
Look for film crew
If neither of those are present, start thinking tactically, ranges, backstops, co-conspirators etc.
What else should you check?
I hope this doesn't come off as mall-ninja-ish, I'm looking for serious discussion, even though it's not likely to happen to me. (except that we hear about crap like this in the news far too often)

Fastbolt hit the nail on the head!

FBI stats: 75% of LE shootings occur within 21 feet, 50% within 5 feet. LE will miss 7 out of 10 shots at just 21 feet (stressful situation folks, seeking cover, looking for civilians, calling back up, etc). 50% of LE shootings will be in no light or low-light conditions (no sights or night sights). A human being can cover 21 feet in 3 seconds or less, most people cannot even perceive and verify that a threat exists in under 2 seconds let alone formulate a plan of action and apply it within that 3 seconds.

Shooting at 20-25 yards might impress some of the range buddies and might work in competitions, but target shooting techniques don't apply to a gunfight within 21 feet on a moving threat that you are likely reacting to. Close that distance to 5 feet or less and you'll never have time to get to your sights. Heck, you likely won't even be able to get both hands on your firearm within 5 feet due to the extended arm hazards it presents.

Here's a nice digital reading option that's very straight forward, simple to learn, and easy to maintain. The book will give you the techniques, photos to illustrate what is said about the technique, and the overhead view of the scenarios so you can continue to train on your own. I have confirmed that the book is downloadable to PC and/or to a smart phone that can read PDF. My Android will read it with Acrobat as well as the installed e-reader that came with the phone. I've taken Matt Canovi's REAL Defensive System (the live fire version) and it will take you to a level that most untrained shooters can't fathom themselves reaching for very practical self-defense situations.

https://thegunshowradio.com/store/pr...stem-download/

Quite literally, if you have to think about what you are going to do it is already too late.

RoundBrown · 02-03-2012, 12:37

Im curious, out of all the Civilian Gun fighting instructors there are how many have any real world experience..No burn intended on this just curiousity.

Rally Vincent · 02-03-2012, 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundBrown

Im curious, out of all the Civilian Gun fighting instructors there are how many have any real world experience..No burn intended on this just curiousity.

I'm sure the percentage is low.

packsaddle · 02-03-2012, 14:26

just remember, in your attempt to save humanity, you may die trying.

remember mark alan wilson?

**larry_minn** · 02-03-2012, 14:53

douggmc
Basicly had my "plans" (which never survive contact with enemy)
I don't want to shoot anyone. When I have been with Officers who let me carry. "If anyone needs shooting you do it. I have to buy my own ammo... (and lawyers) "
I have been "justified" in using deadly force once. From top to bottom. Weapon used, threat to life, threat to others...... I just KNEW I was going to kill the POS. But he gave up. I would have been wrong. He was NOT a threat, the gun was blank gun, college kids being stupid.