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Old 02-01-2012, 09:09   #121
hunter won
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FWIW the 5 shot j frame S&W loaded with the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot has been doing an excellent job for the NYPD.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:10   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor View Post
9mm is "newer" than .38 Special is by 4 years.
9MM was designed from the start as a modern, smokeless powder round, .38Special was designed as a black powder cartridge.

.38Special+P+ uses around 20,000 PSI at max pressure. 9MM can be loaded up to 39,200 PSI in standard loadings. This is why 9MM is much more effective despite being a much shorter cartridge over-all length wise.

It's not just the 4 years, it's the technology and design differences between the two cartridges.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:16   #123
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FWIW the 5 shot j frame S&W loaded with the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot has been doing an excellent job for the NYPD.
When do you believe the last time was that an NYPD officer used a j-frame? Since the NYPD went to the G19, P226 and S&W5946 9MMs, I doubt there are more than a handful of NYPD folks still carrying a j-frame.

Keep in mind, any officer (regardless of specific job) must carry one of those three weapons since 1994. That's 18 years of no .38 snubbies being issued.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:20   #124
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I guess what I don't understand when people comment on this thread saying that they love .38 snubs is why? Why buy a .38 snub when you can get a .357 snub of the same weight and you can shoot .38s, .357s loaded down so you don't get deposits in the cylinder bores or whatever level of .357 ammo you choose, get your cake and eat it too.

I understand if you have an oldie you like but buying a new one when you can have a .357 puzzles me. Sort of like going to a car dealership and saying you don't want the high performance model that has no downsides, you'd rather have a slower version. Don
I bought a S&W 642 because I was able to pick it up a couple years ago for only $300. I have fired 357 out of a J frame and it is not the most fun thing out there. I know that I was only going to carry and shoot 38 +p, so why bother paying the other $400 just to get features I wasn't going to use?
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:27   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
9MM was designed from the start as a modern, smokeless powder round, .38Special was designed as a black powder cartridge.

.38Special+P+ uses around 20,000 PSI at max pressure. 9MM can be loaded up to 39,200 PSI in standard loadings. This is why 9MM is much more effective despite being a much shorter cartridge over-all length wise.

It's not just the 4 years, it's the technology and design differences between the two cartridges.
...and both are listed as the proven manstoppers.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:36   #126
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...and both are listed as the proven manstoppers.
Neither are "manstoppers".

Both suck, 9MM just sucks less. Given the choice, I'll go with 18 rounds of the one that sucks less, rather than 5 or 6 rounds of the one that sucks more.

Oh, and as far as I know, there's no "Proven Manstopper" list out there. If there was, 9MM and .38Special would be far, far down it.

Sad, this is what Hollywood does to the children.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:44   #127
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Neither are "manstoppers".

Both suck, 9MM just sucks less. Given the choice, I'll go with 18 rounds of the one that sucks less, rather than 5 or 6 rounds of the one that sucks more.

Oh, and as far as I know, there's no "Proven Manstopper" list out there.

Sad, this is what Hollywood does to the children.
Experience is a wonderful thing.
It enables me to recognize a mistake that I'm making when trying to have a civilized conversation with You.
I prefer to stick to Massad Ayoob ammo selection.
Being from the tough neigberhood is not good enough here
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:55   #128
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Experience is a wonderful thing.
It enables me to recognize a mistake that I'm making when trying to have a civilized conversation with You.
I prefer to stick to Massad Ayoob ammo selection.
Being from the tough neigberhood is not good enough here
Yes, experience is a wonderful thing......but the rest of your post makes no sense. Are you trying to say that Massad Ayoob recommends .38special, and that is why you use it?

And what are you trying to say about tough neighborhoods?
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:31   #129
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
When do you believe the last time was that an NYPD officer used a j-frame? Since the NYPD went to the G19, P226 and S&W5946 9MMs, I doubt there are more than a handful of NYPD folks still carrying a j-frame.

Keep in mind, any officer (regardless of specific job) must carry one of those three weapons since 1994. That's 18 years of no .38 snubbies being issued.
A few have them and are using them with excellent results. A detective fired one shot killing a mugger on his way to work.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:54   #130
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A few have them and are using them with excellent results. A detective fired one shot killing a mugger on his way to work.
Sure...a few.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:46   #131
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Not sure how many NYPD officers carry j-frames, but it must be considerable.

Was it not a request from the NYPD that led to the Gold-Dot 135gr short-barrel load?

My wife's home defense firearm is a S&W Model 19 loaded with the 158gr +P LSWCHP. She shoots it well and is comfy with it and that is what matters most IMO.

I say carry what you can, shoot what you like and fine day to all.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:50   #132
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Not sure how many NYPD officers carry j-frames, but it must be considerable.
J-frames have not been issued or allowed with the NYPD for 18 years.

Only those officers that were already carrying them got "grandfathered" so they could continue using them.

Most NYPD officers retire after, what, 30 years? Plus the fact that previous to 1994 they were only issued to plain-clothes types........plus the fact that firearms have to be either re-built or replaced?

I'd bet the numbers are closer to the dozens than the hundreds.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:05   #133
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http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1398650

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Old 02-01-2012, 15:06   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
9MM was designed from the start as a modern, smokeless powder round, .38Special was designed as a black powder cartridge.

.38Special+P+ uses around 20,000 PSI at max pressure. 9MM can be loaded up to 39,200 PSI in standard loadings. This is why 9MM is much more effective despite being a much shorter cartridge over-all length wise.

It's not just the 4 years, it's the technology and design differences between the two cartridges.
Wrong.

Pressure isn't the end game if the case capacity is small (like 9mmP), this is why .38sp can drive a heavier bullet faster than the 9mm.
Pressure also has nothing to do with effectiveness.
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Old 02-01-2012, 16:09   #135
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Wrong.

Pressure isn't the end game if the case capacity is small (like 9mmP), this is why .38sp can drive a heavier bullet faster than the 9mm.
Pressure also has nothing to do with effectiveness.
Don't waste your time Berto.
This guy knows everything better than the FBI statistics, Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob and all the members of this forum all together. He operates with the "facts" only and constantly excepts anyone to "prove" him everything just to call it a BS moment later. Must be though to be the punk.
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Old 02-01-2012, 16:46   #136
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If someone isn't going to go down after 6 rounds of 38spl there's a good chance that they're not going down after 6 rounds of anything else and that within the time it takes to fire 6 rounds they'll be on you and take your gun away and kill you no matter what you're packin'. All that a modern semi would have done was allow the perp to not have to reload the gun before he killed the LEO.
I've always learned it's two to the body then one to the head. If that won't take someone out of the fight then you're screwed from the start.
Well, you're assuming that you achieve 100% hit ratio, which never happens basically. And there are cases where someone emptied a 7 or 8 shot .45 at multiple bad guys. Has anyone ever heard of a civilian or cop gunfight where they actually put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head? It just doesn't happen except in exceptional circumstances.

More rounds NEVER hurt but fewer MIGHT.

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Old 02-01-2012, 16:51   #137
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More rounds NEVER hurt but fewer MIGHT.
This is true. It's always some kind of compromise.
Some of us are just better or feel better with the revolvers, so we compromise the capacity for accuracy.
You may be in better position with the high capacity auto that works for You
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Old 02-01-2012, 17:04   #138
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I love it for concealed carry, S&W model 442 with +Ps and I love it for target shooting, 4" 686. It will be around as long as revolvers are. Its cheap to reload and is deathly accurate out of a service revolver. If diameter of round and power were the only criteria for a good SD ammo, then I would carry a 44 magnum! But in reality the best concealed gun is the one you can carry and shoot effectively. For me it is a jframe in 38 special.

Now since I have gotten a Glock 17, I have had a hankerin' for a model 940! 9MM and a jframe, that is a good combo!

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Old 02-01-2012, 18:20   #139
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This is true. It's always some kind of compromise.
Some of us are just better or feel better with the revolvers, so we compromise the capacity for accuracy.
You may be in better position with the high capacity auto that works for You
I highly doubt that 99% of shooters would be more accurate with a revolver than an M1911. The revolver's DA trigger, short sight radius, and usually awkward grip assure that.
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Old 02-01-2012, 18:58   #140
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I highly doubt that 99% of shooters would be more accurate with a revolver than an M1911. The revolver's DA trigger, short sight radius, and usually awkward grip assure that.
You know, the company I work for is in the process of switching from S&W model 10 to S&W M&P 40 as we speak. You have to take the introductory course and later qualify with the new pistol at the range.
Most of the folks I talked to are saying something along the lines:
"I'm shooting more straight with the revolver, but the pistol has higher capacity, so it's ok with me". Food for thought.
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