GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-01-2012, 19:11   #151
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berto View Post
No. It comes from the extra two inches of barrel.
Buffalo Bore 158gr. LSWCHP: S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

Corbon 100 gr. Pow'r Ball
Caliber: 9mm Luger + P.
Bullet Wt.: 100gr Pow'RBall.
Velocity: 1475fps.
Energy: 483ftlbs.
Test Barrel Length: 4.0 Inches.
OOOOOOOPS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berto View Post
No disagreement here, not sure when we started comparing snubby .38s to G17s with ninja porting.....The OP asked about the round, the answer was capacity vs the revolver, which most of us understand.
Once it was established the .38sp was equal to the 9mm, you seemed insecure and shifted the discussion to platforms. Weird.
Nope, I've been discussing both cartridge and platform from post one. Go back and re-read if you must. (Post #62). Weird is not reading the whole thread and understanding the trends in the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berto View Post
How about this: we use the same guns, and I'll happily bring a camera.

BTW, Pepsi sucks too.
Wait, I thought this was about how .38SPCL and revolvers are at least as good as automatics. Changing your mind?

Oh, o.k., you can bring a GLOCK too. Don't forget the money.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

Last edited by M&P15T; 02-01-2012 at 19:20..
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:19   #152
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 28,726


Quote:
Originally Posted by TN.Frank View Post
I know there are some of us here on the forum who feel that the good ol' 38Spl(especially in the +P loading) is more then adequate for self defense, especially out of small frame revolvers BUT it seems like many want to poo poo this neat ctg. as being under powered or just plain inadequate for a self defense round.
LEO's use it for decades and granted, the LRN ammo they used WASN'T the best but with proper ammo this little round does a pretty good job IMHO.
So, at what point did people start thinking that the 38Spl just wasn't good enough to get the job done for a civilian self defense round?

M&P

Well, here's the OP.

This tactic of wearing people down with your ignorance is apparent.
What YOU are talking about is known as 'moving the goal posts' when your point is refuted.
__________________
...Then I found a place it's dark and it's rotted
it's a cool, sweet kinda-place where the copters won't spot it.
-T Hip
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:22   #153
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berto View Post
M&P

Well, here's the OP.

This tactic of wearing people down with your ignorance is apparent.
What YOU are talking about is known as 'moving the goal posts' when your point is refuted.
Yes?

What point are your referring to? What has been refuted? Christ, at least be clear about what you're attempting to say.

I know this may be a shock, but you do understand that within threads as long as this one, the topic kind of shifts and moves, right?

Oh, and just to be clear, the OP was also discussing both cartridge and platform, just like I've been......it's right there in the post you quoted. But you probably noticed that yourself, right? Goal posts, right?

OOOOOPS!
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

Last edited by M&P15T; 02-01-2012 at 19:37..
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:29   #154
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 28,726


Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Buffalo Bore 158gr. LSWCHP: S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

Corbon 100 gr. Pow'r Ball
Caliber: 9mm Luger + P.
Bullet Wt.: 100gr Pow'RBall.
Velocity: 1475fps.
Energy: 483ftlbs.
Test Barrel Length: 4.0 Inches.
OOOOOOOPS!


Nope, I've been discussing both cartridge and platform from post one. Go back and re-read if you must. (Post #62). Weird is not reading the whole thread and understanding the trends in the discussion.



Wait, I thought this was about how .38SPCL and revolvers are at least as good as automatics. Changing your mind?

Oh, o.k., you can bring a GLOCK too. Don't forget the money.
Let's see if we can clear up your thinking;

I don't claim revolvers to be superior, I simply stated the advantages they have, just as autos have theirs.
I stated .38sp is just as effective as 9mm, which I can support and have supported.
If you truly want to see who has better abilities, with a given gun, bring it.

I have Glock, 1911, revolvers, derringers, snubbies whatever. Show what you got....you mentioned a camera, I have tons of pics on how I shoot. You?

You seem fixated on comparing a snubby to a G17, as if that's the only vindication you'll find in this debate. It was never about that...except maybe to you.
__________________
...Then I found a place it's dark and it's rotted
it's a cool, sweet kinda-place where the copters won't spot it.
-T Hip
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:31   #155
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 28,726


Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Yes?

What point are your referring to? What has been refuted? Christ, at least be clear about what you're attempting to say.

I know this may be a shock, but you do understand that within threads as long as this one, the topic kind of shifts and moves, right?

Oh, and just to be clear, the OP was also discussing both cartridge and platform, just like I've been. But you probably noticed that yourself, right?

OOOOOPS!
You're still scrambling to restructure the debate. Not working.
__________________
...Then I found a place it's dark and it's rotted
it's a cool, sweet kinda-place where the copters won't spot it.
-T Hip
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:45   #156
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 28,726


Whew....quiet in here.


I think I'll grab some food from the drive through, I'll bring my 442.

Pray for me.
__________________
...Then I found a place it's dark and it's rotted
it's a cool, sweet kinda-place where the copters won't spot it.
-T Hip
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:54   #157
dbarry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: the Buckeye state
Posts: 913
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...1t:429,r:1,s:0
dbarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:55   #158
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berto View Post
Let's see if we can clear up your thinking;

I don't claim revolvers to be superior, I simply stated the advantages they have, just as autos have theirs.
I stated .38sp is just as effective as 9mm, which I can support and have supported.
If you truly want to see who has better abilities, with a given gun, bring it.

I have Glock, 1911, revolvers, derringers, snubbies whatever. Show what you got....you mentioned a camera, I have tons of pics on how I shoot. You?

You seem fixated on comparing a snubby to a G17, as if that's the only vindication you'll find in this debate. It was never about that...except maybe to you.
You are the last person that should be attempting to clear up anyone's thinking. Christ son, you need to start with your own.

The OP was discussing .38SPCL and small frame revolvers. I went along when you brought up the idea of longer barrels (usually in medium to larger frame revolvers) to level the playing field cartridge performance wise. Then, you got into the heavy for caliber .38SPCL loads to show the performance capabilities of the cartridge.....o.k., fine. I went along with you every time you've "moved the goal posts" on the conversation, while you've sat there and accused me of doing the same.

You just quoted how this whole discussion started with the OP asking when people started poo-pooing .38SPCL in small frame revolvers. I simply stated, when Gaston Glock filed for his 17th patent. The discussion has had many twists and turns from there.

I don't need to find vindication, as you have not supplied one bit of corroborating information for any of the statements you have made, or been able to refute one point I've put forward. I have been the one that has cruised the internet and found the hard facts and presented them, and every time you've just blithely ignored those facts because they haven't supported one thing you've said. .38SPCL is nowhere near as powerful as 9MM in their standard loadings. It's only when you "moved the goal posts" to 4" barrels (away from small frame/snubby revolvers), and then "move the goal posts" a 2nd time to heavy for caliber loads, that .38SPCL even comes close to 9MM. In standard loads, 9MM absolutely crushes .38SPCL. And don't even try to say that "small framed revolvers" doesn't mean a snubby, the 4 pictures on page 6 of this thread alone, as well as many others, clearly show what everyone is taking those words to mean.

Lastly, I compared my pistol to a snubby because that's what the OP was talking about, in the very post you quoted. If we keep the goal posts where they should be, and compare a small framed, short barrel snubby with standard .38SPCL 125 gr. +P loads, and compare it with standard 115 gr. 9MM +P loads out of a G17, we're talking total destruction....not even close. The OP asked when/why .38SPCL out of small framed revolvers lost favor, and the answer is high-capacity 9MM autos like the G17.

Look dude, you're so far from making any coherent, orderly or supported argument it's a joke. And I don't think that you're really trying to say that revolvers are better for self-defense, I get the feeling you understand that autos have better over-all performance. You could probably even admit that 9MM is a better cartridge, if your ego wasn't in the way.

I'm just waiting for the one revolver fan to finally say "Yeah, I know that a revolver isn't the best choice, but damnit, I just like them, and that's all that matters."
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

Last edited by M&P15T; 02-01-2012 at 20:27..
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 19:56   #159
joecoastie
Senior Member
 
joecoastie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 1,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berto View Post
Whew....quiet in here.


I think I'll grab some food from the drive through, I'll bring my 442.

Pray for me.
Wow, you DO live on the edge, hope you have something belt fed as a BUG.
__________________
--------------------------------
USCG, Saving Lives On A Budget.

Last edited by joecoastie; 02-01-2012 at 19:56..
joecoastie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 20:07   #160
method
Senior Member
 
method's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,842
Didn't anyone ever watch Miami Vice? Tubbs did quite well with a J Frame.

'Course, he did supplement it with his under-jacket howitzer from time to time.

General Firearms Forum
method is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 20:38   #161
Ruggles
Senior Member
 
Ruggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tejas
Posts: 8,402
I think the cartridge is a fine performer but I can not shoot a revolver 1/2 as well as a 1911. I choose the platform and then the cartridge I guess.

I love the over appeal of the S&W K Frame but damn if I can shoot them well enough. :(
Ruggles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 20:41   #162
Ruggles
Senior Member
 
Ruggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tejas
Posts: 8,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by carbuncle View Post
Is it weird that I want a 4" barrel .38? Not a .357, but a dedicated .38: for some reason, I think I need to add one to the collection.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Heck no it is not. A 4" S&W Model 10 might just be the finest mass production revolver ever IMO. Nothing wrong with that at all
Ruggles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 22:29   #163
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 28,726


Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You are the last person that should be attempting to clear up anyone's thinking. Christ son, you need to start with your own.

The OP was discussing .38SPCL and small frame revolvers. I went along when you brought up the idea of longer barrels (usually in medium to larger frame revolvers) to level the playing field cartridge performance wise. Then, you got into the heavy for caliber .38SPCL loads to show the performance capabilities of the cartridge.....o.k., fine. I went along with you every time you've "moved the goal posts" on the conversation, while you've sat there and accused me of doing the same.
Whoops Houston, we have a tantrum.....
I'm going to indulge you in going through all this just to illustrate how FOS you are.
Again, here's the OP:

I know there are some of us here on the forum who feel that the good ol' 38Spl(especially in the +P loading) is more then adequate for self defense, especially out of small frame revolvers BUT it seems like many want to poo poo this neat ctg. as being under powered or just plain inadequate for a self defense round.
LEO's use it for decades and granted, the LRN ammo they used WASN'T the best but with proper ammo this little round does a pretty good job IMHO.
So, at what point did people start thinking that the 38Spl just wasn't good enough to get the job done for a civilian self defense round?


Yes he mentions small frame frame revolvers, he also mentions LEO use (med frame revolvers, BUG's), more importantly in concluding the question, asks;

So, at what point did people start thinking that the 38Spl just wasn't good enough to get the job done for a civilian self defense round?

Almost every person stated the .38sp was fine, some carried the J frame, some still carried the K frame. General agreement the .38sp round was fine.


Pg 3, I come in;

It was about capacity. There was no issue with the .38sp performance with a good load, in fact the 147gr 9mm loads were developed to approximate the FBI .38sp load performance.
My confidence in the revolver comes from years of consistent practice and learning to hit with it well, along with the fact I don't experience malfunctions anywhere near as often as I do with autos, even 'good' ones.
Those things are more important to me than whether I need to reload after 6 or 14.
LE deals in seeking crime and often involves large groups, capacity has much greater value vs someone needing personal defense weapon.


You come in at #62 with this sage reflection:

People aren't tougher, they're just better armed. Bad guys are packing better stuff these days, so it's just an arms race one must keep up with. Plus, many times attackers are found to be under the influence of narcotics, and that is why multiple hits and capacity is a big bonus. It's not about going out of "fashion", it's the reality of changing times and threats.

Revolvers are over-matched fire power wise to modern autos, so that's why most people understand that cartridges like .38 in a revolver is not the best choice for HD/CCW.

Spray & pray? How many times have you been in a gun fight? Please share with the class how you stood still and took careful, aimed shots with your .38 snubby while being shot at.

I love how you and other people talk about how this pistol or that cartridge has "served" them well.......when by "served" 99% of people mean it's what's easy and covenient to carry. Get in an actual gun fight, face and armed assailant (or mutiple assailants) and that little .38 revolver in your hand is going to feel like a single shot derringer.


.....which started your first pissing match with someone knowledgeable.

THis nugget of wisdom in particular, Revolvers are over-matched fire power wise to modern autos, so that's why most people understand that cartridges like .38 in a revolver is not the best choice for HD/CCW.



3 things:

One, it implys the the .38sp is inadequate (while you state that you carry 9mm)
Two, it puts you at odds with the vast majority of posters in this thread (an open ended discussion).
Three, it projects this assumption (surely earned on the mean streets of Detroit) that you know best what's suitable for the rest of us.

My response to your (contrived) experience with "13" Glocks, IDPA and 'comps' on #77 set off the BS detector, prompting my #78 response. Everything from you from that point on has galvanized that impression.

Next, You say I brought up 4" barrels. I did not. Nestor did. (post 82)

My next post was #89.

(Responding to Andrewsky)

I'll help.

1) They are most likely to work in real S/D situations, more so at contact range.

2) they are typically more accurate.

3)they are easier to use (adm handling) and no seperate parts to get lost/damaged. A self contained weapon.

4)better with cover, can't jam itself with thrown brass or slide interruption (this applies to shooting from retention too)

5) not grip sensitive, works if trigger is pulled.

6)can use any ammo/bullet profile, more versatile.

7)can handle the most powerful cartridges

8)simplicity of use, safety; immediately obvious if loaded.

THose are the obvious ones, if we get into triggers and paradigms of civilian carry needs, there's probably more.


THese things are factual, supported by any notable instructors. They are the advantages a revolver has over autos, not a stated universal supremacy of revolver, just the advantages.



Quote:
You just quoted how this whole discussion started with the OP asking when people started poo-pooing .38SPCL in small frame revolvers. I simply stated, when Gaston Glock filed for his 17th patent. The discussion has had many twists and turns from there.
Not unexpectantly, you lie again; #115


Let's list the same old tired arguments from the revolver fans;

Auto users need the capacity because they can't shoot.
A revolver is "six for sure".
A revolver won't jam.
"Most" CCW firearms uses are over in one or two shots.

Look, we get it...you like revolvers. Fine.

Revolver fanatics (especially, for some reason, snubby owners) will got to the ends of the earth to try and justify what they carry, and so will auto lovers. The difference is that there are serious performance benefits to carrying an auto versus a snubby that will never go away, and this seems to create quite a bit of butt hurt amongst the revolver fans.

Let's be realistic, the performance differences between something like my G17C and a .38 J-frame are night and day. I would take the Pepsi challenge of lining-up on man-sized target at 7 yards, drawing from concealment, and putting 18 rounds on target. I'd do that with anyone here and their 5 or 6 shot revolver..........and it wouldn't even be close.

Well, unless Jerry Miculek posted here already.

But revolvers like the J-frame are far easier to carry concealed, and that's the real reason to own and carry one.

If you "feel" comfortable with a .38 snubby 5 or 6 shot, more power to you. Some simply would rather carry the bigger auto and know they have more rounds that are easier to get on target fast. Snubby carriers trade ease of carry for performance, and it's that simple.

When did .38SPCL stop being enough? When Gaston Glock filed for his 17th patent. Hell, the .38Spl was originally a black powder loading, so it's limited in it's case pressure maximums versus newer cartridges like the 9MM.


Here, YOU make the comparison to the g17C, as if that had anything to do with the validity of carrying a .38sp revolver.
If we take your assumption that the topic is about .38sp snubbies, and not the round itself or it's century of LE use, it would be safe to say we're discussing a gun used mostly as a pocket gun.
Do you pocket carry your G17C, Plaxico?
You also mention case pressures, meaningless when comparing completely different case volumes and illustrated with your own cited ballistics.



Quote:
I don't need to find vindication, as you have not supplied one bit of corroborating information for any of the statements you have made, or been able to refute one point I've put forward. I have been the one that has cruised the internet and found the hard facts and presented them, and every time you've just blithely ignored those facts because they haven't supported one thing you've said. .38SPCL is nowhere near as powerful as 9MM in their standard loadings. It's only when you "moved the goal posts" to 4" barrels (away from small frame/snubby revolvers), and then "move the goal posts" a 2nd time to heavy for caliber loads, that .38SPCL even comes close to 9MM. In standard loads, 9MM absolutely crushes .38SPCL. And don't even try to say that "small framed revolvers" doesn't mean a snubby, the 4 pictures on page 6 of this thread alone, as well as many others, clearly show what everyone is taking those words to mean.
This is pure gold.

1) the only reason you're 'cruising the internet' is to learn about stuff and try to buttress a statement you had no knowledge to back.
2) you repeat the same fallacy over and over in hopes it will become true.
Truth: in an apples to apples comparison with their respective best loadings, bullet weights, pressure ratings and bbl lengths, the two rounds are equal with slight edge to .38 with heavy bullets, 9mm with light bullets.
There are far more low powered .38 loads for sure, revolvers don't need recoil pressure to function. That's why there is a huge range.
I don't understand your emotional reaction to this. If you don't believe me, go to caliber corner and we can comapare numbers.

This is why you are 'moving the goalpost' as I stated.

Comparing a full size pistol ballistics to a snub nosed revolver....and again to reiterate, YOU introduced this element.; the idea that .38sp is insufficient because (as if we should give a ****) you carry a g17C and therefore everyone else should too.

Quote:
Really? Oh, o.k.

A heavy for caliber .38SPCL load like Buffalo Bore's 158gr. LSWCHP leaves a 2.5" snubby barrel at about 1059FPS producing a whopping 393 ft. lbs. of energy. All wrapped up in a 5 or 6 shot tiny package that usually has crappy sights, and forces the shooter under stress to use a long DA trigger pull for rapid shooting.

I carry Corbon's 115gr. JHP that moves out at 1350FPS and delivers 464 ft. lbs of energy. And I've got 18 of those rounds ready to go, with a nice, light trigger and better sights.

Know where that better performance comes from? Higher pressure.

And I'd bet that you could find even better performing .38SPCL ammo, stuff I don't know or care about. In the end the biggest draw-back is the pistol platform those rounds reside in. Snubbies, and revolvers in general, are nowhere near as effective for getting rounds on target quickly. Snubbies have their place for CCW because they're easy to carry, not because of their performance.


My Pepsi challenge still stands if you really think that .38SPCL in a revolver is the way to go for sheer shooting performance. 18 rounds on a man-sized target at 7 yards (longer if you so desire), and see who does it faster.

Bring money and a camera.
You want to couch the discussion around the .38 snubby vs your Glock.

VVVVVVVVVV

Quote:
Lastly, I compared my pistol to a snubby because that's what the OP was talking about, in the very post you quoted. If we keep the goal posts where they should be, and compare a small framed, short barrel snubby with standard .38SPCL 125 gr. +P loads, and compare it with standard 115 gr. 9MM +P loads out of a G17, we're talking total destruction....not even close. The OP asked when/why .38SPCL out of small framed revolvers lost favor, and the answer is high-capacity 9MM autos like the G17.
No, the OP referred to civilian carry;

So, at what point did people start thinking that the 38Spl just wasn't good enough to get the job done for a civilian self defense round?


Not LE use. THere are a few similarities between LE and CCW, but also a ton of differences like we don't wear uniforms with a service pistol on our hip, going to crime scenes for a living....that one sorta stands out for me.
Thugs use all sorts of weapons, Glocks, Hi points,six shooters, zip guns etc.

Go to The armed citizen .com or something similar and highlight how many running gun battles you come across.


From the beginning, you saw a discussion about revolvers as an affront to your sanctity of pistol choice. It was never about that, so you try to make the discussion about that....which is sad.


Quote:
Look dude, you're so far from making any coherent, orderly or supported argument it's a joke. And I don't think that you're really trying to say that revolvers are better for self-defense, I get the feeling you understand that autos have better over-all performance. You could probably even admit that 9MM is a better cartridge, if your ego wasn't in the way.

I'm just waiting for the one revolver fan to finally say "Yeah, I know that a revolver isn't the best choice, but damnit, I just like them, and that's all that matters."
You can't have it your way when speaking for other people, sorry.
__________________
...Then I found a place it's dark and it's rotted
it's a cool, sweet kinda-place where the copters won't spot it.
-T Hip

Last edited by Berto; 02-01-2012 at 22:30..
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 00:10   #164
carbuncle
is not cool.
 
carbuncle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 2,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogship View Post
Heck no..........Although my choice for a ccw is no longer a revolver, it's still a good choice for anyone who so chooses........and, the 38spl is a cartridge that isn't appreciated as much as it should be.......every bit as good as the 9mm. (Some would say it's better, and I couldn't disagree!)

This model 60 no-dash is what I was using when I last regularly ccw'd with a revolver. Every once in awhile, I still do use it........just not regularly.
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum
Nice...thanks for the encouragement! Now I need to settle on a snubby, too!
__________________
carbuncle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 00:21   #165
Novocaine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,643
.38 FBI load out of 4” barrel hangs with the best of them in my book. 2 inch snub is nothing to sneeze at either but is not exactly the hammer of Thor. Sure, the traits of a snub (small, reliable and powerful) are more difficult to combine in automatic. But that’s what revolvers became- niche weapons. And they drag .38Spl to become niche caliber along. Reliability of modern service automatics and ammo is the reason. Because for the most shooters it’s easier to score accurate hits in a hurry with a full size automatic than with a full size revolver. Capacity and ease of reloading don’t hurt either.

Revolvers used to be appealing option for people on a budget, no longer the case.

Few years back a local doctor was killed in home invasion. Two BGs armed with 9mms (Lorcin and Firestar to be exact). The doctor by all accounts was a very good marksman, gun enthusiast and collector, CCW holder, all that. Wife opens the door, gets pistol-whipped, screams; doctor hears ruckus, grabs loaded .38 and comes down the stairs. BG shoots and misses, doctor empties his .38. Hits one intruder three times, kills him on the spot. Starts wrestling with surviving BG who shoots the doctor twice. The doctor’s wife and brother-in-law arm themselves with cooking pots and whatnot and join the fray. Together they disarm and subdue BG. Wife also gets shot but survives, doctor dies. BG pleads self-defense at trial.

To me this story exemplifies what is wrong with using .38 revolver for a house gun when you have access to more effective weapons and why it falls out of favor with the mainstream crowd.
Novocaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 00:55   #166
GlockFish
Floyd
 
GlockFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,353
General Firearms Forum
__________________
Q: How can I reduce the amount of mail I receive from the NRA?
A: Simply email us at membership@nrahq.org or dial 800-NRA-3888 and request to be placed on the "Do Not Promote" list.
GlockFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 02:30   #167
atakawow
Senior Member
 
atakawow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 804
@ the "pressure = power" argument. Some of you really need to take up reloading to fully understand how things work. I have the powders and reloads on hand to prove this wrong over and over and over again, with hard facts.


Which caliber has more potential? Let's make this short and simple. Bullet weight/diameter are almost always interchangeable between the .38spl and the 9mm. Assuming the test subjects are using 125 grain lead slugs. If subject A (.38spl) can cram a whole lot more powder inside its case than subject B (9mm), which do you think will propel the bullet faster?

The result is pretty clear. The .38spl has much more potential than the 9mm. HOWEVER, finding a platform that could support such pressure could prove rather difficult.
atakawow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 04:50   #168
Nestor
Lean & Mean
 
Nestor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: From Canada with love!
Posts: 20,970


Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I know what I know. And what I know started with reading many of the same authors and experts you mentioned above. Then I grew up, and discovered that those guys aren't in my shoes. They don't live where I do, or look at things the same way as I do. I got some basic info from them, and then took things from there my damn self by learning from my own experiences.

FBI statistics? Great, if you're a LEO, almost useless if you're a CCWer...a distinction in statistics you have yet to grasp.

As far as being a punk? Easy to insult sitting behind a computer in Canada.
No matter right or wrong You simply can't stop insulting the others.
You are so predictible that it's no longer entertaining
If You are acting like a punk, don't be surprised to be called one.
__________________
One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching.

R.I.P Jeff (23Skidoo), Chad (CJLandry) & Mark (Okie) You all will be missed.
Nestor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 09:04   #169
TN.Frank
Mad Hatter
 
TN.Frank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posts: 4,142
I watched "Police Guns" on Modern Marvels on the History Ch. last night. According to one guy from the Mass. PD he said that PD went to semis not because of a lack of stopping power on the J/K Frame and 38spl ctg. but because of capacity. Because of all the civil unrest in the '60's and '70's LEO's felt that they needed more rounds on board to take care of riot conditions.
That's great if you're an LEO where you many encounter such things but for civilian use 5 or 6 shots should give you enough time to run away from the threat since we have no reason to stick around and engage the threat. We're not law enforcement and don't need to take the bad guy into custody, we just want to throw some lead his way to confuse him enough for us to escape IMHO.
I don't have a problem with semis but I also don't practice as much as I should and a revolver is a lot more forgiving for those of us who can't get out to shoot as much as we'd like to.
That's the great thing about this country, you can choose to carry whatever you want be it J-Frame, snub nose K-Frame, Ruger LCP, Full size Beretta 92, pick what works the best for you and your situation and run with it. Here in my little part of the world the J-Frame is working out just fine.
I would like to move up to a K-Frame for HD but only because a larger revolver would be easier to handle and the longer barrel would give me a bit better ballistics and I'd get one more shot in the cylinder. For EDC/CCW I'm sticking with my 642, it's light, compact, very reliable and I just feel better with it then I would a small semi.
__________________
*Glock G19 Gen3, RTF2*
TN.Frank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 09:46   #170
1911ES
Senior Member
 
1911ES's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 435
The .38 is actually better than ever. The ammunition selection far more advanced than the previous years.

I carry the S&W 642 airweight when traveling light...
1911ES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 09:49   #171
HexHead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by TN.Frank View Post
we just want to throw some lead his way to confuse him enough for us to escape IMHO.
Good grief.
HexHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 10:25   #172
TN.Frank
Mad Hatter
 
TN.Frank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posts: 4,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexHead View Post
Good grief.
So what, you think I'm going to stand toe to toe with an armed thug(or maybe two or three of em') and duke it out until we're all dead?
The point of self defense is to get away from the confrontation IMHO, not to stand there and fight it out until I either kill em' all or get killed.
There's an old saying, "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.", I'm not an LEO, I have no obligation to take Mr.Bad Guy into custody.

I'm going to put hits on the target, with any luck those hits will cause him to change his mind about the confrontation, in the mean time I'm going to be putting as much distance between him and me as I can.
__________________
*Glock G19 Gen3, RTF2*

Last edited by TN.Frank; 02-02-2012 at 10:27..
TN.Frank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 10:42   #173
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 18,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Lastly, I compared my pistol to a snubby because that's what the OP was talking about, in the very post you quoted. If we keep the goal posts where they should be, and compare a small framed, short barrel snubby with standard .38SPCL 125 gr. +P loads, and compare it with standard 115 gr. 9MM +P loads out of a G17, we're talking total destruction....not even close. The OP asked when/why .38SPCL out of small framed revolvers lost favor, and the answer is high-capacity 9MM autos like the G17.
You are Berto are both right. He is right that .38spl can crush 9mm. No two ways about that. That is because .38spl can be loaded to be near .357mag (and that creates other issues, and that's why we have the .357mag, but still it makes clear that the .38spl has lots of potential above the 9mm).

But you are right that in the typically found loads, off the shelves and in most peoples guns, the 9mm crushes the .38. The only caveat to that is the 158gr is also common load in .38, and the heaver bullet keeps the .38 from being "crushed" too much by the 9.

Where you are completely right is in your assessment of the high-cap auto like the 17 being the reason for the demise (or decreased popularity) of the .38spl. Add to that the 26. People can have relatively small guns in the 26 and get the balistic advantage of the typical 9mm, with more rounds, less recoil, and typically more accuracy from the shooter than with the .38 revolver.

Still, in my opinion, in many of your posts you tend to downplay the strengths of the .38 snubbie. Retro guys like Berto and me, and many others, find the .38 snubbie to have many advantages over the semi-auto (and of course the semi-auto has many advantages over the .38 snubbie). In my opinion, your views would be stronger if they were just a little more balanced. Just an opinion, take it for what it's worth to you.
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 10:52   #174
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 18,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novocaine View Post
...
Few years back a local doctor was killed in home invasion. Two BGs armed with 9mms (Lorcin and Firestar to be exact). The doctor by all accounts was a very good marksman, gun enthusiast and collector, CCW holder, all that. Wife opens the door, gets pistol-whipped, screams; doctor hears ruckus, grabs loaded .38 and comes down the stairs. BG shoots and misses, doctor empties his .38. Hits one intruder three times, kills him on the spot. Starts wrestling with surviving BG who shoots the doctor twice. The doctor’s wife and brother-in-law arm themselves with cooking pots and whatnot and join the fray. Together they disarm and subdue BG. Wife also gets shot but survives, doctor dies. BG pleads self-defense at trial.

To me this story exemplifies what is wrong with using .38 revolver for a house gun when you have access to more effective weapons and why it falls out of favor with the mainstream crowd.
Thanks for that story.

I agree with you. The .38 revovler is good and useful, but if given a choice, the G17 would be better. All other things equal, and thinking about that home defense story above.

If crap happens and you grab one gun and go to find out what's going on... I'd much rather have a G17 than a .38 snubbie. Even rather have a G17 than a GP100 .357mag. And, taking the G17 to the door is more practical than taking a shotgun.

But if I gotta go out concealed in public, there are times, places, circumstances, that the .38 snubbie is the better choice for concealment purposes than the G17. And once you start downsizing the semi-auto to be similar in size to the snubbie, reliability issues start to creep in.

That's my 2 cents
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 11:34   #175
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novocaine View Post
Few years back a local doctor was killed in home invasion. Two BGs armed with 9mms (Lorcin and Firestar to be exact). The doctor by all accounts was a very good marksman, gun enthusiast and collector, CCW holder, all that. Wife opens the door, gets pistol-whipped, screams; doctor hears ruckus, grabs loaded .38 and comes down the stairs. BG shoots and misses, doctor empties his .38. Hits one intruder three times, kills him on the spot. Starts wrestling with surviving BG who shoots the doctor twice. The doctor’s wife and brother-in-law arm themselves with cooking pots and whatnot and join the fray. Together they disarm and subdue BG. Wife also gets shot but survives, doctor dies. BG pleads self-defense at trial.
Unless there was another really similar case, I remember learning about that case some years ago. Sad and tragic.

I remember at the time thinking that it seemed as though it might have been less a matter of caliber and more a matter of capacity (before he exhausted his ammunitio), and perhaps the nature of the hits he made on the one attacker before being overwhelmed by another attacker. We'd probably all like to think that maybe if he'd had more rounds available (like a 8-10+1 rounds 9mm, or some such pistol) that he might have prevailed and survived, but there's really no way to know.

There are also examples of cop carriers of 5-shot revolvers who died when they exhausted their ammunition against one attacker, as well as a few who prevailed against 2-3 attackers armed with a 5-shot .38 Snub.

Yes, capacity and being able to reload with a magazine are primary advantages with semiauto pistols, but those advantages still have to be effectively employed within any given set of conditions and circumstances. Sometimes circumstance and events (luck) may not go the way we might wish.

I'd never presume to try and convince one of our guys & gals to go to a 5-shot snub instead of a compact 9, .40, .45 or even a 6-7 shot .380 ... as long as they can use whatever choice they make safely, accurately & effectively. For the folks who are experienced revolver shooters, or who may have the desire to take the time to learn to become a skilled revolver shooter? I'm not going to try to dissuade them, either.

It takes more time and effort (and continued practice) to master even the larger 6-shot wheelguns (or 7-8 shot models nowadays), though, and even more so to use the smaller snubs.

It generally seems easier to teach the younger shooters to use the smaller pistols than a revolver, though.

Of course, comes to that, full-size pistols are always going to remain arguably better choices than smaller ones, too.

It's all a balanced compromise to be carefully assessed and determined by each individual.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 02-02-2012 at 11:36..
fastbolt is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:53.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 678
182 Members
496 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42