[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Nestor

...and both are listed as the proven manstoppers.

Neither are "manstoppers".

Both suck, 9MM just sucks less. Given the choice, I'll go with 18 rounds of the one that sucks less, rather than 5 or 6 rounds of the one that sucks more.

Oh, and as far as I know, there's no "Proven Manstopper" list out there. If there was, 9MM and .38Special would be far, far down it.

Sad, this is what Hollywood does to the children.

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Neither are "manstoppers".

Both suck, 9MM just sucks less. Given the choice, I'll go with 18 rounds of the one that sucks less, rather than 5 or 6 rounds of the one that sucks more.

Oh, and as far as I know, there's no "Proven Manstopper" list out there.

Sad, this is what Hollywood does to the children.

Experience is a wonderful thing.
It enables me to recognize a mistake that I'm making when trying to have a civilized conversation with You.
I prefer to stick to Massad Ayoob ammo selection.
Being from the tough neigberhood is not good enough here

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Nestor

Experience is a wonderful thing.
It enables me to recognize a mistake that I'm making when trying to have a civilized conversation with You.
I prefer to stick to Massad Ayoob ammo selection.
Being from the tough neigberhood is not good enough here

Yes, experience is a wonderful thing......but the rest of your post makes no sense. Are you trying to say that Massad Ayoob recommends .38special, and that is why you use it?

And what are you trying to say about tough neighborhoods?

[hunter won]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

When do you believe the last time was that an NYPD officer used a j-frame? Since the NYPD went to the G19, P226 and S&W5946 9MMs, I doubt there are more than a handful of NYPD folks still carrying a j-frame.

Keep in mind, any officer (regardless of specific job) must carry one of those three weapons since 1994. That's 18 years of no .38 snubbies being issued.

A few have them and are using them with excellent results. A detective fired one shot killing a mugger on his way to work.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by hunter won

A few have them and are using them with excellent results. A detective fired one shot killing a mugger on his way to work.

Sure...a few.

[J_Rico]

Not sure how many NYPD officers carry j-frames, but it must be considerable.

Was it not a request from the NYPD that led to the Gold-Dot 135gr short-barrel load?

My wife's home defense firearm is a S&W Model 19 loaded with the 158gr +P LSWCHP. She shoots it well and is comfy with it and that is what matters most IMO.

I say carry what you can, shoot what you like and fine day to all.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by J_Rico

Not sure how many NYPD officers carry j-frames, but it must be considerable.

J-frames have not been issued or allowed with the NYPD for 18 years.

Only those officers that were already carrying them got "grandfathered" so they could continue using them.

Most NYPD officers retire after, what, 30 years? Plus the fact that previous to 1994 they were only issued to plain-clothes types........plus the fact that firearms have to be either re-built or replaced?

I'd bet the numbers are closer to the dozens than the hundreds.

[Glock19Fan]

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1398650

It did well in this shooting.

[Berto]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

9MM was designed from the start as a modern, smokeless powder round, .38Special was designed as a black powder cartridge.

.38Special+P+ uses around 20,000 PSI at max pressure. 9MM can be loaded up to 39,200 PSI in standard loadings. This is why 9MM is much more effective despite being a much shorter cartridge over-all length wise.

It's not just the 4 years, it's the technology and design differences between the two cartridges.

Wrong.

Pressure isn't the end game if the case capacity is small (like 9mmP), this is why .38sp can drive a heavier bullet faster than the 9mm.
Pressure also has nothing to do with effectiveness.

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by Berto

Wrong.

Pressure isn't the end game if the case capacity is small (like 9mmP), this is why .38sp can drive a heavier bullet faster than the 9mm.
Pressure also has nothing to do with effectiveness.

Don't waste your time Berto.
This guy knows everything better than the FBI statistics, Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob and all the members of this forum all together. He operates with the "facts" only and constantly excepts anyone to "prove" him everything just to call it a BS moment later. Must be though to be the punk.

[cowboy1964]

Originally Posted by TN.Frank

If someone isn't going to go down after 6 rounds of 38spl there's a good chance that they're not going down after 6 rounds of anything else and that within the time it takes to fire 6 rounds they'll be on you and take your gun away and kill you no matter what you're packin'. All that a modern semi would have done was allow the perp to not have to reload the gun before he killed the LEO.
I've always learned it's two to the body then one to the head. If that won't take someone out of the fight then you're screwed from the start.

Well, you're assuming that you achieve 100% hit ratio, which never happens basically. And there are cases where someone emptied a 7 or 8 shot .45 at multiple bad guys. Has anyone ever heard of a civilian or cop gunfight where they actually put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head? It just doesn't happen except in exceptional circumstances.

More rounds NEVER hurt but fewer MIGHT.

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

More rounds NEVER hurt but fewer MIGHT.

This is true. It's always some kind of compromise.
Some of us are just better or feel better with the revolvers, so we compromise the capacity for accuracy.
You may be in better position with the high capacity auto that works for You

[Six4Sure]

I love it for concealed carry, S&W model 442 with +Ps and I love it for target shooting, 4" 686. It will be around as long as revolvers are. Its cheap to reload and is deathly accurate out of a service revolver. If diameter of round and power were the only criteria for a good SD ammo, then I would carry a 44 magnum! But in reality the best concealed gun is the one you can carry and shoot effectively. For me it is a jframe in 38 special.

Now since I have gotten a Glock 17, I have had a hankerin' for a model 940! 9MM and a jframe, that is a good combo!

[Andrewsky]

Originally Posted by Nestor

This is true. It's always some kind of compromise.
Some of us are just better or feel better with the revolvers, so we compromise the capacity for accuracy.
You may be in better position with the high capacity auto that works for You

I highly doubt that 99% of shooters would be more accurate with a revolver than an M1911. The revolver's DA trigger, short sight radius, and usually awkward grip assure that.

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by Andrewsky

I highly doubt that 99% of shooters would be more accurate with a revolver than an M1911. The revolver's DA trigger, short sight radius, and usually awkward grip assure that.

You know, the company I work for is in the process of switching from S&W model 10 to S&W M&P 40 as we speak. You have to take the introductory course and later qualify with the new pistol at the range.
Most of the folks I talked to are saying something along the lines:
"I'm shooting more straight with the revolver, but the pistol has higher capacity, so it's ok with me". Food for thought.

[hogship]

Originally Posted by Andrewsky

I highly doubt that 99% of shooters would be more accurate with a revolver than an M1911. The revolver's DA trigger, short sight radius, and usually awkward grip assure that.

Not only that, but you have multiple chambers that must align up exactly the same for the best accuracy to be had......only one chamber on an automatic, and it aligns with the barrel exactly the same for each and every shot.

This is why target 22 revolvers are seldom as accurate as target 22 automatics. For that statement to be noteworthy, it must be noted that the most accurate 22 autos have a fixed barrel......although the statement above about multiple chambers as opposed to a single chamber is still significant when considering inherent accuracy.

ooc

[carbuncle]

Is it weird that I want a 4" barrel .38? Not a .357, but a dedicated .38: for some reason, I think I need to add one to the collection.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

[hogship]

Originally Posted by carbuncle

Is it weird that I want a 4" barrel .38? Not a .357, but a dedicated .38: for some reason, I think I need to add one to the collection.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

Heck no..........Although my choice for a ccw is no longer a revolver, it's still a good choice for anyone who so chooses........and, the 38spl is a cartridge that isn't appreciated as much as it should be.......every bit as good as the 9mm. (Some would say it's better, and I couldn't disagree!)

This model 60 no-dash is what I was using when I last regularly ccw'd with a revolver. Every once in awhile, I still do use it........just not regularly.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Berto

Wrong.

Pressure isn't the end game if the case capacity is small (like 9mmP), this is why .38sp can drive a heavier bullet faster than the 9mm.
Pressure also has nothing to do with effectiveness.

Really? Oh, o.k.

A heavy for caliber .38SPCL load like Buffalo Bore's 158gr. LSWCHP leaves a 2.5" snubby barrel at about 1059FPS producing a whopping 393 ft. lbs. of energy. All wrapped up in a 5 or 6 shot tiny package that usually has crappy sights, and forces the shooter under stress to use a long DA trigger pull for rapid shooting.

I carry Corbon's 115gr. JHP that moves out at 1350FPS and delivers 464 ft. lbs of energy. And I've got 18 of those rounds ready to go, with a nice, light trigger and better sights.

Know where that better performance comes from? Higher pressure.

And I'd bet that you could find even better performing .38SPCL ammo, stuff I don't know or care about. In the end the biggest draw-back is the pistol platform those rounds reside in. Snubbies, and revolvers in general, are nowhere near as effective for getting rounds on target quickly. Snubbies have their place for CCW because they're easy to carry, not because of their performance.


My Pepsi challenge still stands if you really think that .38SPCL in a revolver is the way to go for sheer shooting performance. 18 rounds on a man-sized target at 7 yards (longer if you so desire), and see who does it faster.

Bring money and a camera.

[pennlineman]

[Berto]

Originally Posted by Andrewsky

I highly doubt that 99% of shooters would be more accurate with a revolver than an M1911. The revolver's DA trigger, short sight radius, and usually awkward grip assure that.

Many folks in the military claimed they couldn't hit anything with the 1911 either. DA revolvers typically have really nice SA triggers too and a 5" revolver will have the same sight radius as the 1911.
Not sure how scientific your opinion is.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Nestor

Don't waste your time Berto.
This guy knows everything better than the FBI statistics, Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob and all the members of this forum all together. He operates with the "facts" only and constantly excepts anyone to "prove" him everything just to call it a BS moment later. Must be though to be the punk.

I know what I know. And what I know started with reading many of the same authors and experts you mentioned above. Then I grew up, and discovered that those guys aren't in my shoes. They don't live where I do, or look at things the same way as I do. I got some basic info from them, and then took things from there my damn self by learning from my own experiences.

FBI statistics? Great, if you're a LEO, almost useless if you're a CCWer...a distinction in statistics you have yet to grasp.

As far as being a punk? Easy to insult sitting behind a computer in Canada.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Berto

Many folks in the military claimed they couldn't hit anything with the 1911 either. DA revolvers typically have really nice SA triggers too and a 5" revolver will have the same sight radius as the 1911.
Not sure how scientific your opinion is.

So, under the stress of a life or death situation, you're going to be thumbing back your hammer to take nice, accurate shots?

[Berto]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Really? Oh, o.k.

A heavy for caliber .38SPCL load like Buffalo Bore's 158gr. LSWCHP leaves a 2.5" snubby barrel at about 1059FPS producing a whopping 393 ft. lbs. of energy. All wrapped up in a 5 or 6 shot tiny package that usually has crappy sights, and forces the shooter under stress to use a long DA trigger pull for rapid shooting.

I carry Corbon's 115gr. JHP that moves out at 1350FPS and delivers 464 ft. lbs of energy. And I've got 18 of those rounds ready to go, with a nice, light trigger and better sights.

Know where that better performance comes from? Higher pressure.

No. It comes from the extra two inches of barrel.

And I'd bet that you could find even better performing .38SPCL ammo, stuff I don't know or care about. In the end the biggest draw-back is the pistol platform those rounds reside in. Snubbies, and revolvers in general, are nowhere near as effective for getting rounds on target quickly. Snubbies have their place for CCW because they're easy to carry, not because of their performance.

No disagreement here, not sure when we started comparing snubby .38s to G17s with ninja porting.....The OP asked about the round, the answer was capacity vs the revolver, which most of us understand.
Once it was established the .38sp was equal to the 9mm, you seemed insecure and shifted the discussion to platforms. Weird.

My Pepsi challenge still stands if you really think that .38SPCL in a revolver is the way to go for sheer shooting performance. 18 rounds on a man-sized target at 7 yards (longer if you so desire), and see who does it faster.

Bring money and a camera.

How about this: we use the same guns, and I'll happily bring a camera.

BTW, Pepsi sucks too.

[Berto]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

So, under the stress of a life or death situation, you're going to be thumbing back your hammer to take nice, accurate shots?

No. I shoot just as well DA. He referred to accuracy.