[TN.Frank]

Originally Posted by purrrfect 10

Back to the thread...It boils down to capacity I think LEO in many situations needed more cartridge capacity and quicker reload

because 90% of em' can't shoot for beans.

[country85]

Story I always heard growing up was back in the mid to late 80's some where in SC(were I'm from) a guy got pulled over for speeding, as the officer approached the guy jumped out of his car all jacked up on angel dust or pcp, what ever the newest "super upper" was at the time and tackled the officer, the cop put 5 rounds in his chest and 6 round was a glancing head shot and the guy still wrestled the gun away from the cop reloaded it and killed the officer before he died his self...I've never confirmed this exact story but have heard tons of stories that sounded almost the same, either way I think a 38, even loaded at normal pressures is a darn good self defense round

[TN.Frank]

If someone isn't going to go down after 6 rounds of 38spl there's a good chance that they're not going down after 6 rounds of anything else and that within the time it takes to fire 6 rounds they'll be on you and take your gun away and kill you no matter what you're packin'. All that a modern semi would have done was allow the perp to not have to reload the gun before he killed the LEO.
I've always learned it's two to the body then one to the head. If that won't take someone out of the fight then you're screwed from the start.

[country85]

Originally Posted by TN.Frank

If someone isn't going to go down after 6 rounds of 38spl there's a good chance that they're not going down after 6 rounds of anything else and that within the time it takes to fire 6 rounds they'll be on you and take your gun away and kill you no matter what you're packin'. All that a modern semi would have done was allow the perp to not have to reload the gun before he killed the LEO.
I've always learned it's two to the body then one to the head. If that won't take someone out of the fight then you're screwed from the start.

Very well said

[lawdog734]

I like 38 revolvers too. I am a better then average shooter. I never have had to shoot a person but I did shoot a charging pit bull while on duty. My first 3 shots missed. Shot 4 went thru it's back leg. It wasn't till shot 5 when the dog jumped at me and I but a contact shot thru the center of its chest that it stopped. My point? You can never have to many rounds and you are never as good as you think.

[series1811]

Originally Posted by lawdog734

I like 38 revolvers too. I am a better then average shooter. I never have had to shoot a person but I did shoot a charging pit bull while on duty. My first 3 shots missed. Shot 4 went thru it's back leg. It wasn't till shot 5 when the dog jumped at me and I but a contact shot thru the center of its chest that it stopped. My point? You can never have to many rounds and you are never as good as you think.

There is that point, for sure. When my partner was shot, he was asked how many rounds he thought he had fired and he said two. There were ten shell casing from his gun on the ground (and he hit his assailant twice).

[Berto]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Being a fud from up-state retirement home U.S.A. that can't function in the current century, clinging teary-eyed to ancient and out-date firearms loses you all credibility also.

Judging that someone is a "punk" (ages old euphamism) because they lived in bad areas is pretty tiny minded too, but your true colors are on display as it is.

[fastbolt]

When did the 38Spl stop being "Enough"?

I missed the memo where the venerable .38 Spl stopped "being enough".

I do, however, remember when we switched from revolvers to hi-cap 9's, and we were told that the 9's were close enough to being as good as a .38 Spl, but we now had the advantage of being able to carry more rounds in the guns.

Hey, I was pretty displeased to be giving up my .357 Magnum service revolver at the time.

Over the course of many more years in the field (which included more than 20 years of being a firearms instructor) I ended up carrying issued and personally-owned 9's, .40's & .45's ... and also eventually returned to carrying 5-shot .38's on my own time, and into retirement.

I think the development of better designed hollowpoint ammunition has done a lot for leveling the field, so to speak, and that includes keeping the .38 Spl a viable choice for a secondary/off-duty defensive caliber.

One thing I do miss about the days of the service revolver was that folks seemed to develop a better handgun shooting skills foundation. After all, it required some fair amount of work to properly master a heavy DA trigger pull, while acclimating to the various weirdly shaped grip frame designs and grip stocks the various manufacturers somehow thought were "natural".

We certainly proved we'd buy any number of after-market and custom grip stocks back in those days, trying to make the revolver grip frames better conform to our hands and let us get good reach & leverage on the DA triggers.

If you could master a DA revolver, shooting it accurately and rapidly in double action, using either the iron or adjustable sights of the day, and learn to control the recoil of +P, +P+ or Magnum loads, you could probably learn to shoot just about anything that you could hold in a hand.

Sure, we were limited to 6 shots in duty-size wheelguns. Big deal. We were also limited to 7-rd magazines in 1911's. (Remember when the 8-rd mags were the latest & greatest thing to come along?)

Some folks had already looked at the hi-cap pistols available in those days in the form or the M59 & Browning HP, so there's always been the capacity-minded folks looking for a way to achieve that advantage.

To each their own, I say.

[Magus]

I feel perfectly comfortable with .38 Special. Thousands of people have dropped dead from the old .38 Special. Still a very viable round, especially with modern +P loads.

[Berto]

New ammo:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=294

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=293

Hmmm....looks pretty 9mm-ish.

[WarEagle32]

I see no reason for a 38. There are numerous guns that out perform it in every way. Size, strength, and capacity its a loser. It's 100 years past it's prime. I would feel more comfortable with my LCP than with my 38 snub. I feel under powered with either!

[SK2344]

I don't think the 38 spl was ever said to be, "Not Enough"! They have IMO always been very popular Guns and always will be to the purest of gun owners. The Trend and Fad has been for the small, lightweight .380 type guns and they sell off the chart but this does not preclude the snub nose .38's from being one of the most popular guns out there. I think everyone should own at least one!

[Nanuk]

The 38 special has never been special for me. It was an improvement on the 38 S&W and the 38 colt if I recall correctly. Like Wyoming said, in the 1930's cops needed something to shoot the gangsters with in their cars and the 38 was not up to the task. My grandfather was one of those cops, and he carried a 45 colt with 45 acp's on moon clips for reloads.

In 32 years as a cop (Local, Military, Federal) I only used a 38 as a BUG. What I saw on the street a 38 and a 9mm are about equal in stopping BG's, (which was not impressive) just 9's carry a lot more bullets. I carried either a 357 Magnum or a 45 until it was mandated that I carry the issue 40.

[atakawow]

Originally Posted by TN.Frank

If someone isn't going to go down after 6 rounds of 38spl there's a good chance that they're not going down after 6 rounds of anything else and that within the time it takes to fire 6 rounds they'll be on you and take your gun away and kill you no matter what you're packin'. All that a modern semi would have done was allow the perp to not have to reload the gun before he killed the LEO.
I've always learned it's two to the body then one to the head. If that won't take someone out of the fight then you're screwed from the start.

I don't get it. Didn't you create a thread a while ago bashing the ineffectiveness and how outdated revolvers are?

What caused the sudden change of heart?

[M&P15T]

Let's list the same old tired arguments from the revolver fans;

Auto users need the capacity because they can't shoot.
A revolver is "six for sure".
A revolver won't jam.
"Most" CCW firearms uses are over in one or two shots.

Look, we get it...you like revolvers. Fine.

Revolver fanatics (especially, for some reason, snubby owners) will got to the ends of the earth to try and justify what they carry, and so will auto lovers. The difference is that there are serious performance benefits to carrying an auto versus a snubby that will never go away, and this seems to create quite a bit of butt hurt amongst the revolver fans.

Let's be realistic, the performance differences between something like my G17C and a .38 J-frame are night and day. I would take the Pepsi challenge of lining-up on man-sized target at 7 yards, drawing from concealment, and putting 18 rounds on target. I'd do that with anyone here and their 5 or 6 shot revolver..........and it wouldn't even be close.

Well, unless Jerry Miculek posted here already.

But revolvers like the J-frame are far easier to carry concealed, and that's the real reason to own and carry one.

If you "feel" comfortable with a .38 snubby 5 or 6 shot, more power to you. Some simply would rather carry the bigger auto and know they have more rounds that are easier to get on target fast. Snubby carriers trade ease of carry for performance, and it's that simple.

When did .38SPCL stop being enough? When Gaston Glock filed for his 17th patent. Hell, the .38Spl was originally a black powder loading, so it's limited in it's case pressure maximums versus newer cartridges like the 9MM.

[DonD]

I guess what I don't understand when people comment on this thread saying that they love .38 snubs is why? Why buy a .38 snub when you can get a .357 snub of the same weight and you can shoot .38s, .357s loaded down so you don't get deposits in the cylinder bores or whatever level of .357 ammo you choose, get your cake and eat it too.

I understand if you have an oldie you like but buying a new one when you can have a .357 puzzles me. Sort of like going to a car dealership and saying you don't want the high performance model that has no downsides, you'd rather have a slower version. Don

[SDGlock23]

I think the old 38 Special is a sufficient enough cartridge for self defense, but compare it to small 9mm's on the market. I have had 4 J-frames and while small, my Kahr PM9 is smaller and holds anywhere from 2-3 rounds more with faster reloads to boot. I think the 9mm is better for SD than the 38. My PM9 (and the lesser LCP 380 ACP) have been flawless and I don't buy into the idea that revolvers don't jam...I've had multiple revolvers jam up on me. How so? Unburnt powder can sometimes get in there and gum up things and at that point, it's not good. Granted it's rare, but I've had it happen several times. 7-8 rds of 9mm in a smaller package than the 5 rds of 38 or even .357 seems a no-brainer to me.

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by DonD

I guess what I don't understand when people comment on this thread saying that they love .38 snubs is why? Why buy a .38 snub when you can get a .357 snub of the same weight and you can shoot .38s, .357s loaded down so you don't get deposits in the cylinder bores or whatever level of .357 ammo you choose, get your cake and eat it too.

I understand if you have an oldie you like but buying a new one when you can have a .357 puzzles me. Sort of like going to a car dealership and saying you don't want the high performance model that has no downsides, you'd rather have a slower version. Don

The real downside to the short barrels is the increased muzzle blast and flash.
The idea that the .357 is rather no more efficient in the two-inch guns that a hot .38 Special doesn’t seem to be true. While neither is at its best in the snub, the magnum is the more potent of the two...but than again, You have to deal with the effect of this power at the end of the short barrel.

[Nestor]

9mm is "newer" than .38 Special is by 4 years.

[English]

if nothing else, the .38sp lacks power. Worse than that it lacks power for size. The cartridge is 10mm, nearly half an inch, longer than the 9mm which has more power. The steps up from .380ACP, through .38sp. to 9mm and .357 magnum are remarkably close.

If people realy want small revolvers, it is time the ammunition companies made a 9mm length rimmed .38 in 9mm and 9mm lite configurations. Then revolvers could be made with barrells half an inch longer and cylinders nearly half an inch shorter vor the same overall length. The .38sp is very out dated.

English

[hunter won]

FWIW the 5 shot j frame S&W loaded with the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot has been doing an excellent job for the NYPD.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Nestor

9mm is "newer" than .38 Special is by 4 years.

9MM was designed from the start as a modern, smokeless powder round, .38Special was designed as a black powder cartridge.

.38Special+P+ uses around 20,000 PSI at max pressure. 9MM can be loaded up to 39,200 PSI in standard loadings. This is why 9MM is much more effective despite being a much shorter cartridge over-all length wise.

It's not just the 4 years, it's the technology and design differences between the two cartridges.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by hunter won

FWIW the 5 shot j frame S&W loaded with the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot has been doing an excellent job for the NYPD.

When do you believe the last time was that an NYPD officer used a j-frame? Since the NYPD went to the G19, P226 and S&W5946 9MMs, I doubt there are more than a handful of NYPD folks still carrying a j-frame.

Keep in mind, any officer (regardless of specific job) must carry one of those three weapons since 1994. That's 18 years of no .38 snubbies being issued.

[nathanours]

Originally Posted by DonD

I guess what I don't understand when people comment on this thread saying that they love .38 snubs is why? Why buy a .38 snub when you can get a .357 snub of the same weight and you can shoot .38s, .357s loaded down so you don't get deposits in the cylinder bores or whatever level of .357 ammo you choose, get your cake and eat it too.

I understand if you have an oldie you like but buying a new one when you can have a .357 puzzles me. Sort of like going to a car dealership and saying you don't want the high performance model that has no downsides, you'd rather have a slower version. Don

I bought a S&W 642 because I was able to pick it up a couple years ago for only $300. I have fired 357 out of a J frame and it is not the most fun thing out there. I know that I was only going to carry and shoot 38 +p, so why bother paying the other $400 just to get features I wasn't going to use?

[Nestor]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

9MM was designed from the start as a modern, smokeless powder round, .38Special was designed as a black powder cartridge.

.38Special+P+ uses around 20,000 PSI at max pressure. 9MM can be loaded up to 39,200 PSI in standard loadings. This is why 9MM is much more effective despite being a much shorter cartridge over-all length wise.

It's not just the 4 years, it's the technology and design differences between the two cartridges.

...and both are listed as the proven manstoppers.