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Old 01-30-2012, 16:22   #81
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I've owned 13 GLOCK pistols, and 3 or 4 other autos. Of all of those, only 2 were not 100% reliable. I've never had to clear a failure during a comp because I don't **** around with my pistols, I leave them stock.

Race guns are going to malfunction because they're Frankenguns. They're competition only pieces of **** that have been screwed up by wanabe gun-smiths in their 50s and 60s that are trying to get a mechanical advantage over better shooters.....I've seen plenty of them at IDPA matches. I've watched magazines lose their after-market floor plates and spray their guts all over the shooting range, and much, much more. Stock auto pistols these days are pretty much reliable. To worry over an auto not being reliable (to the point where you won't carry one) is to have never been able to just leave one stock.

My current G17C has about 3-5k through it, without a single failure. This panty-waisted whining about autos being un-reliable is nothing but fantasy and whistful dreaming of the olden days when wheel guns and 1911s ruled.

And you can miss even easier with a 5 shot, double action, crappy sighted .38 snubby, and have fewer rounds in the pistol to boot. Sounds like a plan for someone that thinks the worst threat they'll see is a rabid dog.

And yes, my attitude comes from the hood....Detroit and Benton Harbor, MI. to be exact. Obviously you've never lived in such an area, or your attitude would be very different.
Amazing to me how people fall for advertising that starts with, "Improve the reliability & accuracy of your pistol with our________."
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Old 01-30-2012, 16:46   #82
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.38 Special especially from 4" heavy barrel, especially in +P hollowpoint will do the job if placed in the right spot. Being intimately familiar with whichever handgun you choose for self defense is critical to being able to use it and reload effectively. All the high capacity and super dancing powers won't do much if You can't hit your target and hit it fast. In normal self-defence applications the ability to deliver several decisive hits is more important than a very large magazine capacity, but marketing works wonders. Having a good reserve of ammo is nice, but is secondary to having the ability of making the effective hits. Most crimes are for profit or ego and getting shot serves neither. Facing determined, possibly lethal resistance will cause most criminals to seek easier prey somewhere else. Likewise an attacked citizen should retreat if he can as long as his ego allows.
Firstly, the most likely threat to the citizen is still a burglar, mugger, rapist, or car-jacker no matter what the internet gurus believe in.
If one is caught by a terrorist/gang attack one is likely to be outnumbered and out-gunned by the SMGs, assault rifles, grenades and God only knows what else. Sadly and realistically, the options are to try take a few before going down or attempt to escape.
Either way one in such scenario will run out of time much faster than the bullets.
If one feels it's something common in his neighborhood maybe it's time to move out instead of constantly spreading BS and insulting the others about their choices?
Rocket science it isn't.
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Old 01-30-2012, 17:44   #83
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I've owned 13 GLOCK pistols, and 3 or 4 other autos. Of all of those, only 2 were not 100% reliable. I've never had to clear a failure during a comp because I don't **** around with my pistols, I leave them stock.

Race guns are going to malfunction because they're Frankenguns. They're competition only pieces of **** that have been screwed up by wanabe gun-smiths in their 50s and 60s that are trying to get a mechanical advantage over better shooters.....I've seen plenty of them at IDPA matches. I've watched magazines lose their after-market floor plates and spray their guts all over the shooting range, and much, much more. Stock auto pistols these days are pretty much reliable. To worry over an auto not being reliable (to the point where you won't carry one) is to have never been able to just leave one stock.

My current G17C has about 3-5k through it, without a single failure. This panty-waisted whining about autos being un-reliable is nothing but fantasy and whistful dreaming of the olden days when wheel guns and 1911s ruled.

And you can miss even easier with a 5 shot, double action, crappy sighted .38 snubby, and have fewer rounds in the pistol to boot. Sounds like a plan for someone that thinks the worst threat they'll see is a rabid dog.

And yes, my attitude comes from the hood....Detroit and Benton Harbor, MI. to be exact. Obviously you've never lived in such an area, or your attitude would be very different.
Just for the record my carry guns are all stock. They have to remain stock to be authorized for carry on and off duty by my department. I have seen stock autos malfunction, including a few stock Glocks, as well as "Frankenguns". But we are not talking about customized game guns here. Some of the guns I have seen choke were bone stock Glock Gen 4.

I never said wheel guns rule, I only maintain they are still a viable carry weapon for those of use who don't feel we need to be armed to the teeth to go about our business. I am more accurate with my laser sighted Crimson Trace DAO 38 J frame ( 8 lbs factory trigger) than alot of the Glock fan boys I see at the range.

I never said I won't carry an auto, my personal duty gun is a SIG P229R D/S decocker in 40 S&W, and I am also qualified to carry a Glock 23, a Kahr CW9 (BUG), S&W Bodyguard 380 (BUG) and an AR15 when I need real firepower. I just don't feel the need to carry any of them off duty most of the time.

I am glad you have a weapon that you feel works for YOU! Please grant the rest of us the right to decide what meets our needs, without the insults that result from your narrow perspective of life in the hood.

It's time for me to move on to other topics as this thread has gone WAY off topic...
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Old 01-30-2012, 18:49   #84
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hogship,
As usual you are talking a lot of sense!

We can split the needs of self defence into two categories. In one, a petty criminal wants your wallet because it is easier than working. He doesn't want to kill you because it is dangerous to him to do so. He certainly does not want to get shot because the value of your wallet is less than the value of not being shot. If he can escape, any firearm will be enough to drive him off. A .38sp is as good as anything but a .32 or .380 semi auto will do as well.

The second category is where a different kind of criminal is entirely prepared to kill you or possitively intends to kill you. This can range from a druggie who just does not care about anything except his next fix to a group of some kind of weirdos to what we can call well controlled criminals you have witnessed in the act of their high value crime. If you survive the first contact the attack will not stop with a few loud bangs and for this the .38sp is totally inadequate.

The probabilities must be strongly biased towards the first category of encounter but in that a better strategy might be just to hand over your wallet. Once you start shooting he will start shooting and it is a rare wallet that is worth getting shot with anything anywhere on your body. So the most sensible reason to go armed, unless you can spot the oncoming attack before a gun is pointed at you, is to defend yourself in extremis. And for that the .38sp is significantly inadequate both because it lacks enough KE and because of its capacity/size.

I have a delightful scandium snubby but I would sooner have a small 9mm auto pistol for self defence at no relative loss and several gains to the 9mm. Once we get to the size of a 4" barrel .38sp there is no argument in favour of it over a 9mm or 357SIG auto of the same size.

English
Yes, indeed......also, a lot of sense. Thanks English.
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Old 01-30-2012, 18:58   #85
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Hey Hogship,
no worries...our small disagreements are making this place just a bit more colorful. That's always fun
Yep, right Nestor......

It doesn't matter that there is disagreement.......It's never a surprise, because there will ALWAYS be those who don't agree with whatever opinions I have....... and those who do!

There are plenty of times you and I see "eye to eye", just as well!

Later, buddy.......

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Old 01-30-2012, 19:00   #86
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People aren't tougher, they're just better armed. Bad guys are packing better stuff these days, so it's just an arms race one must keep up with. Plus, many times attackers are found to be under the influence of narcotics, and that is why multiple hits and capacity is a big bonus. It's not about going out of "fashion", it's the reality of changing times and threats.

Revolvers are over-matched fire power wise to modern autos, so that's why most people understand that cartridges like .38 in a revolver is not the best choice for HD/CCW.

Spray & pray? How many times have you been in a gun fight? Please share with the class how you stood still and took careful, aimed shots with your .38 snubby while being shot at.

I love how you and other people talk about how this pistol or that cartridge has "served" them well.......when by "served" 99% of people mean it's what's easy and covenient to carry. Get in an actual gun fight, face and armed assailant (or mutiple assailants) and that little .38 revolver in your hand is going to feel like a single shot derringer.
An excellent post..........^
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Old 01-30-2012, 20:00   #87
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I carry .38 spl all the time, choose your ammo wisely, and it's all you will likely ever need.
Could that have to do with your being a "senior" member?
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Old 01-30-2012, 21:19   #88
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.38 Special especially from 4" heavy barrel, especially in +P hollowpoint will do the job if placed in the right spot. Being intimately familiar with whichever handgun you choose for self defense is critical to being able to use it and reload effectively. All the high capacity and super dancing powers won't do much if You can't hit your target and hit it fast. In normal self-defence applications the ability to deliver several decisive hits is more important than a very large magazine capacity, but marketing works wonders. Having a good reserve of ammo is nice, but is secondary to having the ability of making the effective hits. Most crimes are for profit or ego and getting shot serves neither. Facing determined, possibly lethal resistance will cause most criminals to seek easier prey somewhere else. Likewise an attacked citizen should retreat if he can as long as his ego allows.
Firstly, the most likely threat to the citizen is still a burglar, mugger, rapist, or car-jacker no matter what the internet gurus believe in.
If one is caught by a terrorist/gang attack one is likely to be outnumbered and out-gunned by the SMGs, assault rifles, grenades and God only knows what else. Sadly and realistically, the options are to try take a few before going down or attempt to escape.
Either way one in such scenario will run out of time much faster than the bullets.
If one feels it's something common in his neighborhood maybe it's time to move out instead of constantly spreading BS and insulting the others about their choices?
Rocket science it isn't.
Your argument would be more convincing if you'd spend less time downplaying the obvious and significant advantages of automatics and more time explaining what advantages revolvers might have.
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Old 01-30-2012, 22:15   #89
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Originally Posted by Andrewsky View Post
Your argument would be more convincing if you'd spend less time downplaying the obvious and significant advantages of automatics and more time explaining what advantages revolvers might have.
I'll help.

1) They are most likely to work in real S/D situations, more so at contact range.

2) they are typically more accurate.

3)they are easier to use (adm handling) and no seperate parts to get lost/damaged. A self contained weapon.

4)better with cover, can't jam itself with thrown brass or slide interruption (this applies to shooting from retention too)

5) not grip sensitive, works if trigger is pulled.

6)can use any ammo/bullet profile, more versatile.

7)can handle the most powerful cartridges

8)simplicity of use, safety; immediately obvious if loaded.

THose are the obvious ones, if we get into triggers and paradigms of civilian carry needs, there's probably more.
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Old 01-30-2012, 22:27   #90
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I still carry a J frame 38spl today,,,, and hey guys I have never had
a jam in a wheelie,,,, and I have never had a semi-auto that DO NOT
JAM a one time or another ,,,, I have Glocks, Brownings, Smiths, Colts,
you get the picture. As far as 5 shots go,,,, most gun battles only have
1 - 3 shots fired and it is over,,,, but you can carry a speed loader ,,,, like
I do; also ,,,, just in case.
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Old 01-30-2012, 23:19   #91
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Nothing wrong with .38 Special. I think people have just moved on to modern weapons that allow many more rounds to be fired in a small, reliable, affordable package. So many good, small firearms on the market. In the past, a snub nose .38 Special was one of the only options for a BUG.
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Old 01-30-2012, 23:29   #92
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Originally Posted by wmspdi View Post
high power round that goes through it (due to over penetration), and hits a bystander is a wrongfull death suit or neglegent homicide case waiting to be filed. The term "overkill" comes to mind.
I'd like someone to cite documented incidents where a round penetrated the torso of an adult body and inflicted a serious injury to a bystander. No doubt it has happened somewhere, sometime but I'd bet is is a VERY rare circumstance. Missing entirely is a different story and that can and will happen with all kinds of handguns.

Because I would never want a round fired in grave necessity to fail to do what is needed is why I default to full house .357 ammo for CCW. Each to his/her own. Don

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Old 01-31-2012, 01:27   #93
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When did the 38Spl stop being enough?
1971. The year Dirty Harry was released and Harry Callahan uttered these words

"I know what you're thinking, punk. You're thinking "did he fire six shots or only five?" Now to tell you the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow you head clean off, you've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?"
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:02   #94
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When did the 38Spl stop being "Enough"?
The caliber has not stopped being 'enough', but, the term "Wondernine" started pushing the revolver to the back of the line-up for police departments and some gun enthusiasts.

Ya know. . . I always hated that darned term. "Wondernine".
Someone in the media got a word into our language and made the semi-auto 9mm look like it was a ray gun!

"OMG!!!!!!! Our police are so under-gunned. Jimmy-Jo Bob has a wondernine in his hands, and our poor police are 'stuck' using their inadequate, obsolete .38s. OMG! The humanity!"

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaap!! Yup. Wondernine, alright.

Now, I've got more semi-autos, than I do revolvers, but, there is NOTHING 'wrong' with the .38 Special!!!
I've got an OLD Charter Arms "Undercover" that I carried and felt comfortable carrying it.
Same with a S&W mdl 60 and a mdl 19, or my mdl 66!
What do I carry in them??? Federal "Ny-Clad" .38 +P!!! (Don't practice w/+P in the Charter Arms.)

However, in today's society, a semi-auto in 9mm or .40 S&W or .45 acp is a LITTLE better weapon to carry.
Why????? Capacity. Ease/speed of reloading. Flatter/thinner/easier to conceal (power vs. weight/size).


There's some disagreement in this thread. Friendly disagreement is good.

Fortunately. . . there's NO 'wrong answer'!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:07   #95
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Your argument would be more convincing if you'd spend less time downplaying the obvious and significant advantages of automatics and more time explaining what advantages revolvers might have.
There is no point in trying to convince someone who don't want to be convinced, but there are some advantages for sure.
Revolvers are almost foolproof when it comes to misfires or jams.
If one occurrs, just pull the trigger again and rotate another round into firing position.
Easy to clean, no need to lubricate really.
You can't accidentally eject the magazine.
It's nearly impossible to jam the wheelgun.
You don't have to think "did I put a round in the chamber?" or check the loaded chamber indicator.
It is easier to teach someone how to use a revolver than a semi-auto.
You can load a revolver, put it on top of the fridge and leave it there for 50 years.
It operates without ammunition, so it's easy to train with.
Instead of interrupting your train of thought to rack a slide and reset a hammer, you can concentrate on performing a complete trigger sequence.
Revolvers are economically more efficient, too. I’m not talking about initial cost, but all the other stuff that comes into play.
Can You “limp wristing” the revolver?
In close-quarters fights, the revolver is more resistant to induced failures.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:24   #96
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Some of just shoot alot, and recognize the strengths and weeknesses of handguns. Being a punk from a crappy neighborhood is not something that lends credibility-except to other punks.
Being a fud from up-state retirement home U.S.A. that can't function in the current century, clinging teary-eyed to ancient and out-date firearms loses you all credibility also.

Judging that someone is a "punk" (ages old euphamism) because they lived in bad areas is pretty tiny minded too, but your true colors are on display as it is.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:33   #97
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There is no point in trying to convince someone who don't want to be convinced, but there are some advantages for sure.
Revolvers are almost foolproof when it comes to misfires or jams.
If one occurrs, just pull the trigger again and rotate another round into firing position.
Easy to clean, no need to lubricate really.
You can't accidentally eject the magazine.
It's nearly impossible to jam the wheelgun.
You don't have to think "did I put a round in the chamber?" or check the loaded chamber indicator.
It is easier to teach someone how to use a revolver than a semi-auto.
You can load a revolver, put it on top of the fridge and leave it there for 50 years.
It operates without ammunition, so it's easy to train with.
Instead of interrupting your train of thought to rack a slide and reset a hammer, you can concentrate on performing a complete trigger sequence.
Revolvers are economically more efficient, too. I’m not talking about initial cost, but all the other stuff that comes into play.
Can You “limp wristing” the revolver?
In close-quarters fights, the revolver is more resistant to induced failures.
I agree, and I find that revolvers are a little bit more comfortable to carry because they have no weight in the grip. Carrying an automatic with 15 rounds in the grip (above the centerline of the belt) is no fun.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:44   #98
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When something goes 'bump' in the night, I feel very comfortable knowing I have a revolver full of .38 special +P hollow points ready to meet the need.
Yeah, I have a .40 Glock as well. However, the revolver is located in a secret area away from the Glock should I happen to be there when the need arises.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:47   #99
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The problem is not the round, it is the delivery system. ex/ with a gun that I can carry just as easy, say a Kahr pm9 or g26, I get more ammunition on board.
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:50   #100
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In the early to mid part of last century, the 158 grain lead round nose was the standard duty ammunition for police use. Don't ever let anyone kid you that this cartridge won't kill the bad guys.......very dead!

I seldom carry 38spl anymore, but if I did, I'd load up with a standard pressure, and jacketed hollow point these days.

The +P and +P+ are more powerful, for sure......but considering the application, regular old standard loadings will get 'er done.........

Those who think otherwise are just responding to capitalism, and how marketing creates a "need" to get the "new and improved"........

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Sounds like since you don't carry your 38 any more you jumped on the band wagon responding to capitalism to the new and improved.

I don't have a thing against a 38 except I don't like a revolver my buddy who is a little guy has a few of them and swears by them. I will admit they are fun to shoot and very deadly for sure. I want a G 25 G28 in the worst way Why can't i buy one Damn it ! ???????????

Back to the thread...It boils down to capacity I think LEO in many situations needed more cartridge capacity and quicker reload should they get into a shoot out, giving them the best edge. I think also larger Caliber for damage and penetration and the edge at farther distant s What do you think?
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