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Old 01-30-2012, 08:44   #61
TN.Frank
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I think a lot depends on where you live. Here in Crossville it's fairly peaceful, low crime rate and it's normally restricted to certain areas. As long as I avoid those bad areas I won't have to worry much about becoming the victim of a crime. Now if we ever move back to Phoenix, AZ you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be packin' something in 40cal with at least a 11+1 round with a couple extra mags to boot.
Like I said before, my 642 has been at my side(or inside my waste band,LOL) since I got it last Saturday, my PX4 normally sat in a drawer so which one would serve me better in a gun fight, why the one that I'm able to have with me and that's my little 642, 5 shot.
If I've got to face down a gang of criminals then I really don't even think an AR with a 30 round mag would be enough since I'm only one man vs God knows how many criminals in the gang. I've got to be dead on with each and every shot, they've only got to get lucky with a couple shots to get me. I try to plan my life to stay out of such situations if at all possible. I've carried all manner of handguns over the years(starting at age 19 with a Cap n' Ball Remington) and in 31 years I've never needed to use one, I just pray that I never do but if I do I also pray that what I have at the time will be enough to take care of business.
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:57   #62
M&P15T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronaldo View Post
People aren't any tougher these days, so the .38 is as deadly, or maybe deadlier, that it ever was. I think is has little to do with performance; sometimes things just go out of fashion. The nines and forties are just so much more coolio!

Even though .38 Sp. isn't 'fashionable', it has served me well for many years. It's not so much that the cartridge is weak or impotent, it's that these days cops and some self-taught 'combat' shooters aren't very good shots so they depend on spray 'n pray when the going gets tough.

Unless an adversary is a mutant or on some drug, most folks will respond to being plugged by ceasing the activity that caused the hole to be put into them. I for one still depend on the good 'ol reliable .38 much of the time. I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything except quantity. 15 is nice, but sometime, or most times, 5 will do the job.

So I believe it is more than 'enough'. Like money, you get the best return from bullets placed wisely, not scattered all over the landscape.

I wouldn't normally respond to a thread like this but I was recently at my favorite indoor range, and watching the Gecko45 wannabees blasting away at three yards yielding shotgun-like patterns made me wonder if any of these young guys have a clue how bad they are? Sadly, a lot of rounds never made it onto the paper.... and won't on the bad guy either.

Ronaldo
People aren't tougher, they're just better armed. Bad guys are packing better stuff these days, so it's just an arms race one must keep up with. Plus, many times attackers are found to be under the influence of narcotics, and that is why multiple hits and capacity is a big bonus. It's not about going out of "fashion", it's the reality of changing times and threats.

Revolvers are over-matched fire power wise to modern autos, so that's why most people understand that cartridges like .38 in a revolver is not the best choice for HD/CCW.

Spray & pray? How many times have you been in a gun fight? Please share with the class how you stood still and took careful, aimed shots with your .38 snubby while being shot at.

I love how you and other people talk about how this pistol or that cartridge has "served" them well.......when by "served" 99% of people mean it's what's easy and covenient to carry. Get in an actual gun fight, face and armed assailant (or mutiple assailants) and that little .38 revolver in your hand is going to feel like a single shot derringer.
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:02   #63
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Originally Posted by wmspdi View Post
I can live with "6 for sure" (or 5 in a J frame) before a reload, as opposed to the risk of a malfunction after the first shot and having to spend time performing a clearance drill..........In case you think I don't like auto pistols just let me state that I own 1911s in 9mm, 40 and 45 ACP, Glocks in 9mm and 40, a SIG P229 40, a Kahr PM9, a S&W Model 10 and a J frame 042 (early model 442). The J frame with a Crimson Trace laser is what I carry most of the time. I bet my life on it.
You must have seriosuly bad luck if all of your autos malfunction all the time. Maybe better maintenance?
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:07   #64
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I carry Colt Cobra .38 spl all the time
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:14   #65
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M&P15T, sounds like you have been reading too many Operator fanboy magazines...

Yes I have been under fire, more than once.

Yes, I have returned fire, more than once.

I'm still here, unharmed.

Does your mommy know you're using her computer???

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Old 01-30-2012, 09:18   #66
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For LEOs I'd say when the Miami Shootout occurred, which coupled w/ new Austrian plastic framed higher capacity semi auto being practically given away to Agencies around the country.

Miami Vice showed everyone that the new TV criminals had super duper firepower, Scarface showed everyone that Movie bad guys were pert near invincible... and your local coppers are packing Colt and S&W wheelguns?!?!

Time for a change for them. Which did put a lot of nice handguns on the market for us... didn't it?
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:00   #67
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I like .38 alright, I still want another 85 to replace the one I sold when I moved to an anti-gun state. But right now, I like 6 rounds of 180 grain Golden Sabers, with another 7 in my pocket, in a delivery system less than an inch thick a little more than 10 rounds of 158 grain LSWC...

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Old 01-30-2012, 11:40   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You must have seriosuly bad luck if all of your autos malfunction all the time. Maybe better maintenance?
Most of my autos are race guns and don't "usually" malfunction, but I have seen many CC autos at the range, and at matches, that have choked. All it takes is once at the wrong time. That is why we teach clearing drills! If the risk of a FTF or FTE was not real there would be no need to teach the drills. Have YOU ever had to clear a malfuntion while under fire, or at least on the clock in a competition? It's very easy to become all thumbs under the stress.

You can miss just as easy with an auto, and put innocent lives at risk with all those stray rounds. As far as the bad guys being better armed... Hey, they are now getting their hands on bullet proof vests. I saw a guy selling them at a gun show a few months ago. No police ID required and I saw a couple of gang bangers trying them on. Better practice for that precise head shot now because hits to the body will only hurt and make them even madder.

I agree with another poster. Match the weapon to your risk level, and carry more firepower of you feel the risk warrents it, but don't dismiss the 38 +P revelover. For many of us not spending time in the hood it fits our needs.

Last edited by wmspdi; 01-30-2012 at 11:52..
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:47   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baba Louie View Post
For LEOs I'd say when the Miami Shootout occurred, which coupled w/ new Austrian plastic framed higher capacity semi auto being practically given away to Agencies around the country.

Miami Vice showed everyone that the new TV criminals had super duper firepower, Scarface showed everyone that Movie bad guys were pert near invincible... and your local coppers are packing Colt and S&W wheelguns?!?!

Time for a change for them. Which did put a lot of nice handguns on the market for us... didn't it?
The FBI would have been out gunned regardless what handgun they carried vs 2 perps with automatic rifles and vests. Never take a handgun to a rifle fight, much less a machine gun battle.

To match the firepower on the street I would issue fully automatic weapons to the police like they do in other countries. But then we risk a public relations nightmare with cries of "police state". Oh, and then there is the issue of all those full auto rounds sprayed all over the place and the risk to innocents. It's all a matter of balance.

And yes... my IDPA S&W Model 10 was a police turn in that I got super cheap!

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Old 01-30-2012, 13:14   #70
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To sell something sometimes you need to create a percieved need. I'm fine with a 38 special because I have seen them work.
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Old 01-30-2012, 13:17   #71
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I really think it has a lot to do with the same thing that gave 9mm such a bad name: the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami. Most of those agents were carrying .38's.

And, that is unfortunate, and not really fair. Because after soaking up lots of mostly badly placed rounds, it was three .38's in the K zone each, that finally put a stop to Platt and Matix.
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Old 01-30-2012, 13:24   #72
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As far as lethality goes, I never heard somebody say the .38 special wasn't enough. Perhaps in capacity it's not enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmspdi View Post

You can miss just as easy with an auto, and put innocent lives at risk with all those stray rounds. As far as the bad guys being better armed... Hey, they are now getting their hands on bullet proof vests. I saw a guy selling them at a gun show a few months ago. No police ID required and I saw a couple of gang bangers trying them on. Better practice for that precise head shot now because hits to the body will only hurt and make them even madder.
It's a silly argument to imply that people with automatics are just spray and pray shooters that don't care about where their shots go.

Last edited by esh325; 01-30-2012 at 13:28..
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Old 01-30-2012, 13:26   #73
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A friend of the family carried a little .38 SPL for over 15 years without ever changing the ammo or opening the cylinder. He did a lot of brick work and carried mexican style all through the years.

The gun had to be essentially junked because it was so caked with sweat that the cylinder was locked shut and unable to open.

That was a case of negligence on his part, but interesting none the less.

Check this video out,

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Old 01-30-2012, 13:32   #74
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There sure isn't anything wrong with a .38 special. I just don't like snubnose revolvers. I have two of them. I don't like the slow reloads, the heavy ass trigger, or the fact there is nothing in a revolver to dampen recoil. I also don't like trying to conceal the fat cylinder in the middle of a skinny gun. Plus, I can't shoot them as good as I can my sub compact 9mm and .380. My two J-frames are guns I have almost no use for, but one was my dads when he was a cop and the other my dad bought for me. (he bought my 2 brothers the same models, so we all have matching snubnose j-frames). So I can't ever get rid of them. Sentimental value greatly outweighs real value.
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Old 01-30-2012, 14:38   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronaldo View Post
M&P15T, sounds like you have been reading too many Operator fanboy magazines...

Yes I have been under fire, more than once.

Yes, I have returned fire, more than once.

I'm still here, unharmed.

Does your mommy know you're using her computer???

Ronaldo (see my sig line and learn from it)
Ronaldo;

You've been underfire and still here because better men than you actually returned fire while you ducked and cried for your mother.

Does she know you're on the internet telling lies again?

No one has anything to learn from a liar, so bugger off mate.
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Old 01-30-2012, 14:41   #76
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I carry a ruger sp101 IMB in the summer with no worries.
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Old 01-30-2012, 14:43   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmspdi View Post
Most of my autos are race guns and don't "usually" malfunction, but I have seen many CC autos at the range, and at matches, that have choked. All it takes is once at the wrong time. That is why we teach clearing drills! If the risk of a FTF or FTE was not real there would be no need to teach the drills. Have YOU ever had to clear a malfuntion while under fire, or at least on the clock in a competition? It's very easy to become all thumbs under the stress.

You can miss just as easy with an auto, and put innocent lives at risk with all those stray rounds. As far as the bad guys being better armed... Hey, they are now getting their hands on bullet proof vests. I saw a guy selling them at a gun show a few months ago. No police ID required and I saw a couple of gang bangers trying them on. Better practice for that precise head shot now because hits to the body will only hurt and make them even madder.

I agree with another poster. Match the weapon to your risk level, and carry more firepower of you feel the risk warrents it, but don't dismiss the 38 +P revelover. For many of us not spending time in the hood it fits our needs.
I've owned 13 GLOCK pistols, and 3 or 4 other autos. Of all of those, only 2 were not 100% reliable. I've never had to clear a failure during a comp because I don't **** around with my pistols, I leave them stock.

Race guns are going to malfunction because they're Frankenguns. They're competition only pieces of **** that have been screwed up by wanabe gun-smiths in their 50s and 60s that are trying to get a mechanical advantage over better shooters.....I've seen plenty of them at IDPA matches. I've watched magazines lose their after-market floor plates and spray their guts all over the shooting range, and much, much more. Stock auto pistols these days are pretty much reliable. To worry over an auto not being reliable (to the point where you won't carry one) is to have never been able to just leave one stock.

My current G17C has about 3-5k through it, without a single failure. This panty-waisted whining about autos being un-reliable is nothing but fantasy and whistful dreaming of the olden days when wheel guns and 1911s ruled.

And you can miss even easier with a 5 shot, double action, crappy sighted .38 snubby, and have fewer rounds in the pistol to boot. Sounds like a plan for someone that thinks the worst threat they'll see is a rabid dog.

And yes, my attitude comes from the hood....Detroit and Benton Harbor, MI. to be exact. Obviously you've never lived in such an area, or your attitude would be very different.
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Old 01-30-2012, 15:27   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I've owned 13 GLOCK pistols, and 3 or 4 other autos. Of all of those, only 2 were not 100% reliable. I've never had to clear a failure during a comp because I don't **** around with my pistols, I leave them stock.

Race guns are going to malfunction because they're Frankenguns. They're competition only pieces of **** that have been screwed up by wanabe gun-smiths in their 50s and 60s that are trying to get a mechanical advantage over better shooters.....I've seen plenty of them at IDPA matches. I've watched magazines lose their after-market floor plates and spray their guts all over the shooting range, and much, much more. Stock auto pistols these days are pretty much reliable. To worry over an auto not being reliable (to the point where you won't carry one) is to have never been able to just leave one stock.

My current G17C has about 3-5k through it, without a single failure. This panty-waisted whining about autos being un-reliable is nothing but fantasy and whistful dreaming of the olden days when wheel guns and 1911s ruled.

And you can miss even easier with a 5 shot, double action, crappy sighted .38 snubby, and have fewer rounds in the pistol to boot. Sounds like a plan for someone that thinks the worst threat they'll see is a rabid dog.

And yes, my attitude comes from the hood....Detroit and Benton Harbor, MI. to be exact. Obviously you've never lived in such an area, or your attitude would be very different.

Some of just shoot alot, and recognize the strengths and weeknesses of handguns. Being a punk from a crappy neighborhood is not something that lends credibility-except to other punks.
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Old 01-30-2012, 15:43   #79
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From the last time this thread rolled around:

Quote:
What I learned in this thread:

A. People who carry pistols with double-stacked magazines and/or reloads are paranoids who can't shoot worth a crap.

B. People who carry revolvers or single stack autos are dinosaurs who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.


That sound about right?
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Old 01-30-2012, 16:15   #80
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I carry my G23 most of the time. 2nd is my LCR and I have complete confidence in it.
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