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Old 01-18-2012, 19:01   #1
castroj
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Veterans with Fiduciaries on NICS

In October when I went to renew my CCW license, I was rejected because they said I was on the FBI NICS database. I am a veteran with a passed bout with PTSD and have my wife as my fiduciary. Although I have had my license for 16 years since Texas started issuing CCW it did not matter. No, I was not evaluated if I was a danger to myself or anyone else. The FBI just took the veterans fiduciary database and dumped it on their NICS database. So, now all those veterans coming back from the middle east are not going to go to the VA for PTSD, in fear they also will be put on the NICS. We were ready to give our lives for people of other countries to have our rights. Now we have lost them! Now, "Be judged by 12 or carried by 6" has taken on a new meaning. I am handicapped from diabetes, neuropathy, back hearniated disc, new knee replacement. I was using my CCW to protect myself and family. But, now if I do, I will be outside of the law. Are you enjoying the change? Brady law, gun control loving leaders, combine to take what we have fought for so hard in our lives. Our rights!

Moderator Note: Please read Posts #16 & #17 and UPDATES #41 & #47 for more information before posting.

UPDATE 11/30/12: See Post #47

UPDATE 07/17/12: See Post #41

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Old 01-18-2012, 19:42   #2
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Sorry for this post here in this thread. I have moved it to the Gun Control area where it really belongs!

Moderator Note: Actually, casroj, it is a carry issue. PTSD being used to prevent a person from obtaining a carry permit, yeah, it's a Carry Issues topic.

Folks, please keep your responses on topic. If you have knowledge and/or experience, PLEASE share.

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Old 01-18-2012, 21:08   #3
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Wow, I just mean wow...
Are you an American? Living in the United States? instead of busting this guys balls, and trying to funny, and in all honesty making an ass of yourself big time, why not I don't know, maybe thank him for his service? People like you who take your rights in this country for granted, when guys and gals are giving their lives fighting for them, should maybe stop and think about what you say before you embarrass yourself.

To the op, sorry if I derailed your thread, and also sorry that your country that your honorably served, ( thank you for your service!) has let you down. After fighting to preserve or give to others the rights we all take for granted, you come home to loosing yours! Nothing could be more disgusting, and embarrassing to our country and all who love her. Have you tried contacting the NRA? I am sure that their legal department would be very interested in learning about your situation. Please let us know what we may do to help you restore what was wrongly taken from you!

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Old 01-19-2012, 06:06   #4
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Iím truly sorry you are going through this, castroj. Thank you for your service and for risking your life to ensure I and my children enjoy the rights we have. It is a shame that in doing so yours have been impaired.

As mentioned by Chris, perhaps you should have the NRA and other local organizations in reviewing your case as that would affect many others as well.

Any person with the desire to harm another will find a way to do so, whether or not it is with a firearm, whether or not they carry legally. If your evaluation did not reveal you were a danger to yourself or others, I would dispute and fight the decision to deny you a license all the way up the ladder.

.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:42   #5
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Booker = JERK

PTSD does not equal crazy. There are many different manifestations of PTSD. Some of them are nothing more than night sweats. Some are just dreams or nightmares. Some just make people shy and introverted. Some manifestations of PTSD will make people flinch more easily than normal to loud unexpected noises. I am sure there are some that also do more damage to the human mind and may cause some to be a danger to themselves or others. All of these require an individual diagnosis I would think.

There was a thread on GT a little while ago about a large percentage of active duty cops suffering from PTSD and they are allowed to stay on the job. It seems the OP should be able to appeal the NICS problem through appropriate channels.

Thank you for your service, Sir.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:06   #6
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Booker, you owe catroj an apology...You do need to educate yourself. Takes a brave woman or man to discuss this, to ask for help overcoming the consequences.

castroj, are you familiar with http://www.vawatchdog.org? Here is their page on guns and ammo. http://www.vawatchdog.org/Guns___Ammo.html. It might be a starting point.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:29   #7
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CastroJ, I do not know the appeals process you will need to go through, but if you can get your Psych record or even a new psych eval that shows you no longer suffer from symptoms of PTSD, I do not see why you couldn't get your CCW. I wish you luck getting it, unfortunately PTSD can happen to anyone, but unfortunately happens all to often to our veterans.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:34   #8
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Here's the problem: fiduciaries are appointed when an adult is incompetent to manage his own affairs. That level of disability is a disqualifier for gun ownership. It's not a physical disability which triggers the law, it's the inability to exercise judgement. People physically disabled typically get by with a Power of Attorney for their caregiver. Even people with psychological needs don't automatically need a fiduciary.

I know of one veteran who signed away and accepted a fiduciary in order to collect extra VA money. Bad choice. Signing the paper that says you can't make decisions has fallout.

I'm sorry that you're in this position, and hope you can schedule a hearing. Was the implication of you taking a fiduciary explained to you when you signed?
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:25   #9
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Quite the man you are Booker.

*castroj* Thank you for your service.

Here's hoping you get everything worked out soon.

Regards,
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:52   #10
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I'm sorry this happened and hopefully, you will be able to get this issue resolved.

*NOTE* I'm not asking you to disclose personal information.

Welcome to The Department of Veterans Affairs Fiduciary Program Home Page

The purpose of the Fiduciary Program is to protect the benefits paid to Veterans and beneficiaries who are unable to manage their financial affairs.

Are there other reasons a fiduciary would be in place? There is nothing that says the person has been declared incompetent.

I don't want to derail this thread, but it appears that castroj has done nothing wrong and the VA screwed up.
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Old 01-19-2012, 19:30   #11
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Why is your wife your fiduciary?
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Old 01-19-2012, 20:04   #12
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Why is your wife your fiduciary?
Veterans deemed incapable of managing their personal affairs due to mental or other conditions have fiduciaries appointed to manage those affairs.

What we're looking for here is a work-around allowing castroj to retain his carry permit.
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Old 01-19-2012, 20:19   #13
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Veterans deemed incapable of managing their personal affairs due to mental or other conditions have fiduciaries appointed to manage those affairs.

What we're looking for here is a work-around allowing castroj to retain his carry permit.
Until he has his rights restored, there is none. Federally, he's prohibited:

"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affairs)..." straight off the 4473. He entered into that agreement with the VA.

That's the national standard and has been for years; it's only that reporting has finally caught up to the demands of statute (for which I suspect you can thank Cho). The logic is that if someone can't manage their own monetary affairs, they don't have the capacity to make life and death decisions for others either. this is separate from being adjudicated as an actual danger to self/others. And this isn't just "being bad with money"; this is incompetent to enter into a contract, needs someone to decide for him on even routine expenditures.

There is an appeals and reversal process in the system. His rights can be restored if he demonstrates competence. I'm still interested in knowing how the consequences were explained to the OP and why he entered into the agreement. Waiving rights should be done knowingly.
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Old 01-19-2012, 21:35   #14
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Until he has his rights restored, there is none. Federally, he's prohibited:

"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affairs)..." straight off the 4473. He entered into that agreement with the VA.
castroj, I would definitely seek competent legal counsel and explore your options. I would also recommend seeking an attorney's advice on how to remove your access to your firearms to avoid possible arrest/prosecution for being a prohibited person in possession. Given that the Texas authorities are aware of the NICS denial it's entirely possible that you may be recorded in the local law enforcement database (such as TLETS) as a prohibited person.

Tread very carefully.

Good luck.
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Old 01-19-2012, 23:40   #15
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I believe Sam has defined it well, and Mr. Blandings offers good followup advice.

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Old 01-20-2012, 00:28   #16
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Thanks

I appreciate everyones comments. I know that there are many views to any issue and I don't take offense at any comments concerning my situation. I never have nor am I asking anyone to fight my fights. I am here sharing my experience not for you to get hung up on my problem, but, don't be deceived we won't even get a chance to let them take our guns from our cold hands. Before, we all know it, we will have to surrender without a shot. Because our guns or amunition will be outlawed by executive order passed behind closed doors. So Wake Up!

Concerning my case let me elaborate a little more. I did have my VA primary care provider make an appointment with Mental Health(MH) so that I could be seen by a VA shrink to get a new evaluation. With the new evaluation I may loose monies I receive, but, I will have my second amendment rights back. When I was there for the appointment with MH, the person I met with asked why I was there. I explained the situation to her. For which she asked one question, "How many mental drugs are you on?" I told her I took one periodically for moods as directed. So, she told me that I was not eligible to see a shrink because I was not on three or more mental medication. Therefore, it seems to them taking only one mental med is normal with all the people who may have mild mental problems in the our country. Therefore, I did already make contact with the NRA, as I am a life member. They sent me a list of 5 attornies in Texas and stated that they might pay for my defense. Mainly, because my case will help all other veterans around the country.

Concerning taking a fiduciary. Please understand my wife still remembers that the representative we spoke with clearly stated that taking a fiduciary was only for VA internal purposes. And, I would still be able to live my life as I had. I would be able to hunt as the state of Texas gives disabled veterans their hunting and fishing license free every year. I was giving up nothing. Yea!! that was true at the time. But, with the zealous anti-gunners (read Brady Bill), people in Washington who are working on gun control as they say, UNDER THE RADAR. VA files were released, and now everything in the game changes. How would you like to live life believing you are a legal citizen, sane and responsible. Your military with 4 BS and criminal records clean as a whistle, then you realize you been tagged with the vial of all criminals. Everyone now says you can't sign a contract, make a will, or even change your mail address. Hinesite is great! But always too late.

So, please understand it is not easy to openly bring this problem to the open. I don't know you guys. Yet, I know that I have to warn you my fellow brothers about how easy they can manipulate the truth. So that you might be prepared! I will be posting here as I do pursue my case. In the faith of our freedoms in our beloved country. Later - John.
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:35   #17
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S3167 Veterans 2nd Amendment Protection Act

Bill pending: S3167 - Veterans 2nd Amendment Protection Act
Sponsor: Senator Richard Burr R-NC with 19 other co-sponsors

Official Summary
6/19/2008--Introduced.
Veterans 2nd Amendment Protection Act - Prohibits considering a veteran, surviving spouse, or child who is mentally incapacitated, deemed mentally incompetent, or experiencing an extended loss of consciousness from being considered adjudicated as a mental defective for purposes of the right to receive or transport firearms without the order or finding of a judge, magistrate, or other judicial authority of competent jurisdiction that such veteran, surviving spouse, or child is a danger to him- or herself or others.

You can go to: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-s3167/show and see this information. The bill has been read twice and referred to the senate veterans affair committee.

Now if we can all email Senator Burr R-NC and the other 19 co-sponsors to support this bill, all veterans with fiduciaries who were put on the NICS will be able to be taken off the NICS. A similar bill has already been passed in the House H.R. 2349.

Then this loyal veteran can be legal again. Justice restored!
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:13   #18
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Here's the problem: fiduciaries are appointed when an adult is incompetent to manage his own affairs. That level of disability is a disqualifier for gun ownership. It's not a physical disability which triggers the law, it's the inability to exercise judgement. People physically disabled typically get by with a Power of Attorney for their caregiver. Even people with psychological needs don't automatically need a fiduciary.

I know of one veteran who signed away and accepted a fiduciary in order to collect extra VA money. Bad choice. Signing the paper that says you can't make decisions has fallout.

I'm sorry that you're in this position, and hope you can schedule a hearing. Was the implication of you taking a fiduciary explained to you when you signed?
I was told of a case once that a fiduciary (I believe that was the term used, basically they couldnít spend their own money) was assigned because the person had issues with handling money. If I remember correctly the person was a compulsive late night TV shopper. If what I was told was correct and I didnít misinterpret it, then it is possible to have one that is court appointed, or perhaps done voluntarily, for reasons that may have nothing to do with the person being aggressive or a danger to themselves or others.

Would the reasons for having a fiduciary be reflected in the legal documents and can that along with the medical evaluation be used to appeal the rejection?

.
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:19   #19
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Until he has his rights restored, there is none. Federally, he's prohibited:

"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affairs)..." straight off the 4473. He entered into that agreement with the VA.

That's the national standard and has been for years; it's only that reporting has finally caught up to the demands of statute (for which I suspect you can thank Cho). The logic is that if someone can't manage their own monetary affairs, they don't have the capacity to make life and death decisions for others either. this is separate from being adjudicated as an actual danger to self/others. And this isn't just "being bad with money"; this is incompetent to enter into a contract, needs someone to decide for him on even routine expenditures.

There is an appeals and reversal process in the system. His rights can be restored if he demonstrates competence. I'm still interested in knowing how the consequences were explained to the OP and why he entered into the agreement. Waiving rights should be done knowingly.
Once more, I failed to read before posting. Iím sorry.

I guess if the appointment has to do with money issues and nothing with safety, there is still not much that can be done until the appointment is found to no longer be necessary? If that is the case, then I think it stinks!

.
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:41   #20
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Originally Posted by castroj View Post
Bill pending: S3167 - Veterans 2nd Amendment Protection Act
Sponsor: Senator Richard Burr R-NC with 19 other co-sponsors

Official Summary
6/19/2008--Introduced.
Veterans 2nd Amendment Protection Act - Prohibits considering a veteran, surviving spouse, or child who is mentally incapacitated, deemed mentally incompetent, or experiencing an extended loss of consciousness from being considered adjudicated as a mental defective for purposes of the right to receive or transport firearms without the order or finding of a judge, magistrate, or other judicial authority of competent jurisdiction that such veteran, surviving spouse, or child is a danger to him- or herself or others.

You can go to: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-s3167/show and see this information. The bill has been read twice and referred to the senate veterans affair committee.

Now if we can all email Senator Burr R-NC and the other 19 co-sponsors to support this bill, all veterans with fiduciaries who were put on the NICS will be able to be taken off the NICS. A similar bill has already been passed in the House H.R. 2349.

Then this loyal veteran can be legal again. Justice restored!
I wish you and others in the same predicament the very best in your fight, castroj.

This page has a link showing the sponsors: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3167 for those that would like to write to them.

Castroj, may I have your permission to post a summary of the problem you are faced with and the link above to request others write in support of this bill?

.
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:42   #21
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I am sticking this at the top of the CI main page. There are probably many thousands of Veterans in castroj's situation.
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:46   #22
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Veterans deemed incapable of managing their personal affairs due to mental or other conditions have fiduciaries appointed to manage those affairs.

What we're looking for here is a work-around allowing castroj to retain his carry permit.
I don't remember all of the details, but there was an article a couple of years ago about a veteran who had his wife appointed as a guardian or whatever and couldn't get CCW. I believe the issue was that having her appointed as a guardian required a court or administrative finding that he was "adjudicated as a mental defective" and therefore became a prohibited person under ß 922(g). There was also another recent thread here (this month, I think) where somebody posted the ATF admin. regs. explaining what they interpret to be "adjudicated as a mental defective."

If that is the issue, I've never heard of a way of fixing it. From what I've seen in the past, he'd have a better chance if he was a convicted felon.

EDIT: yeah, what Sam Spade posted. I didn't read the whole thread.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:06   #23
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I am sticking this at the top of the CI main page. There are probably many thousands of Veterans in castroj's situation.
I believe it is an excellent idea, RussP. There are probably many others that have not yet found out and wonít know until their license comes up for renewal or they try to purchase a new firearm. Mr. Blandingsí post also brings other issues to light worthy of serious consideration.

If castroj is ok with it, Iíll post elsewhere with his own words but no links or reference to this forum. There are more than a handful of individuals there very involved in 2A issues, many of which are veterans. They will likely also direct the rest of us of who else we should write to show support for this bill. I have the post ready to go pending castrojís permission to do so. Once posted, if additional places to write are mentioned, Iíll share those comments here so others can take action.

.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:16   #24
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I don't remember all of the details, but there was an article a couple of years ago about a veteran who had his wife appointed as a guardian or whatever and couldn't get CCW. I believe the issue was that having her appointed as a guardian required a court or administrative finding that he was "adjudicated as a mental defective" and therefore became a prohibited person under ß 922(g). There was also another recent thread here (this month, I think) where somebody posted the ATF admin. regs. explaining what they interpret to be "adjudicated as a mental defective."

If that is the issue, I've never heard of a way of fixing it. From what I've seen in the past, he'd have a better chance if he was a convicted felon.

EDIT: yeah, what Sam Spade posted. I didn't read the whole thread.
Itís not a very long thread and castrojís post #16 provides additional information. In his post #17 he brought up a Bill that was introduced that may assist him and others with the same problem.

I donít know if it will help any, but Iím willing to write to those who wrote and co-sponsored the bill. If I know my people well, it is likely Iíll be able to share good verbiage to include in the letter shortly after I post the request for help.

.
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Old 01-20-2012, 06:38   #25
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Absolutely amazing.

I've known bomber pilots and their commanders who had their fingers on the triggers of nuclear weapons who were also on meds that would curl your hair.

Regards,
Happyguy
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