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Old 08-19-2012, 12:38   #51
Jerry
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
Massive screwup by the feds, along with some bad-faith actions.

First, they had an undercover agent hound him to saw off a shotgun. Then, they gave him the wrong court date, which is (I think) why they sent a raiding party. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the wrong court date...

Somewhat similar to the case involving regular police shooting an elderly woman when they did a no-knock drug raid on the wrong address. She fired at what was from her reasonable view, a home invasion.

They had the gall to charge her, but they were dropped. I don't know how that happened, grand jury or a good lawyer with public pressure.
Too bad dpadams6 doesn't/didn't know that or doesn't understand what was wrong with those actions.
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Old 12-19-2012, 18:42   #52
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If I'm not mistaken, a federal court ruled that the branch davidians committed no crime when those 4 atf agents were killed because the executed the warrant improperly, thus illegally, and the compound residents actually had the right to defend themselves because no one in the atf initially identified themselves as Leos. Further, that dude that was attorney general at the time was disciplined before senate hearing committee for using national guard armaments against US citizens, which by the way is a crime.

I don't believe all atf is bad, but you could not have been there for all of it to be able to say that they acted 100% appropriately in their actions. It's tragic, to be sure, that anyone got killed, including the agents, but they acted stupidly and brought it on themselves, just as you say Koresh did. I won't even bring up the infrared aerial surveillance video that shows canisters being lobbed into the structures seconds before the infernoes erupted.

You're loyal to your organization, and that's awesome... but using ruby ridge as a point maker... probably should have left that one out. The atf committed murder and janet reno authorized it during that siege... its indisputable. The only ones held accountable... branch davidians.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:10   #53
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Originally Posted by FearTheBoomAndBust View Post
I know I'm going to get flamed here, but I figure its worth while to show how the real BATFE, not the political appointees that you all (and everyone in the Bureau) hate.

If anyone wants to make an adult argument against the BATFE's existence, I would be more then happy to listen to it, on three conditions:
1) You pay a $200 tax stamp to me and fill out a form with a 6 month turn around time.
2) Read my post first, because it will address a number of concerns.
3) Have proof, and be an adult with your argument, please do not slander the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect (believe it or not) your lawful use and ownership of firearms.
I'm not doing any of those things.

But,

The problem with ATF is the same as the problems with police, we see here. Most posters can't separate the law and lawmakers' decisions from those who enforce them.

We collectively elect lawmakers. They make laws. We collectively hire people to enforce them. Then we blame the people we hired to enforce them, for the laws our elected lawmakers made.

To make it a step stupider - here at Glock Talk, we also blame LE for not ignoring the bad laws...and the same people blame them for ignoring the laws they didn't want ignored. This forum is (literally) at least half populated by children.
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Old 12-22-2012, 13:47   #54
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Nice to know. Thanks for your service,stay safe. Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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Old 01-02-2013, 13:06   #55
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SAs don't lie???

Huh??? ATF is full of thugs and liars. If you need examples get a beer or two and begin reading LINK & LINK get an eyeful at cleanupatf.org
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Old 01-02-2013, 15:36   #56
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I'm not doing any of those things.

But,

he problem with ATF is the same as the problems with police, we see here. Most posters can't separate the law and lawmakers' decisions from those who enforce them.

We collectively elect lawmakers. They make laws. We collectively hire people to enforce them. Then we blame the people we hired to enforce them, for the laws out elected lawmakers made.

To make it a step stupider - here at Glock Talk, we also blame LE for not ignoring the bad laws...and the same people blame them for ignoring the laws they didn't want ignored. This forum is (literally) at least half populated by children.
But isn't it funny what laws they DO pick and choose and when and where NOT to enforce. Isn't it funny how they can openly brake the law and the administration, courts nor Congress punish them.
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Old 01-02-2013, 15:57   #57
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But isn't it funny what laws they DO pick and choose and when and where NOT to enforce. Isn't it funny how they can openly brake the law and the administration, courts nor Congress punish them.
Still waiting to hear that Gregory has been arrested and charged with violating DC's "high capacity" magazine ban. And I suspect one or more additional NBC:Meet the Press employees were involved. I doubt that Gregoru went to a LGS and bought it...all were probably sold out by that time.


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Old 01-02-2013, 16:37   #58
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Here's my question for the BATFE..

About 8 years ago while I was out of state, my home was broken into. I got a call from family, and quickly called a friend of mine on the LEO as he knew I have a large gun collection. He notified the officers responding to check on my collection. I had an FN FAL out of the safe as there wasn't any room for it. (My mistake). When they got there the FN FAL was sitting by the broken front door. The LEO's that were there spotted my ammo crate marke 81mm HE and called in the Bomb squad and the BATFE. As I'm driving back to my state, I'm on the phone with a Capt. of my LEO and she said my master bedroom was one of the few rooms the suspects did not enter. But she wanted to know what was in the locked ammo crate. I told her it's contents. Military maps, etc.. left over from my service and she could pop it open and check it out if it made her feel better. While all this was going on I had a friend go to my house to represent me, and take custody of my too scared to death dogs. Meanwhile he observed, the Leo run a K-9 through my house (which took a dump in my office), and saw BATFE and the LEO ransacking my house. Not only did they do a thorough ransacking, they even crawled under it through my crawl space to see if I had a hidden basement. (In Florida) In the end, BATF took my FN-FAL with them. The had asked me over the phone where my keys were to the gun safe, but I had those on me. However, someone attempted to drill out the lock, yet when the burglars saw the cops they ran off, and didn't leave behind any drills or tools. When I got home they were all gone and my home was trashed! I took pictures of every room including my master bedroom that was NEVER touched by the suspects. Every bed in my home was tossed including the Master bedroom. Every dresser drawer in the house was also tossed including the master bedroom. And to add insult to injury, when I called the BATFE about my FN-FAL, they said they didn't take it, it was my LEO. When I called my LEO, they said BATFE took it. I contacted my buddies in the LEO and one of them works in the evidence room and verified that it wasn't there, that BATFE infact did take it with them.

As you can see here, this leaves me with many questions.

So after I lawyered up. The guys on my LEO told me who to FAX my hate letter too. I faxed everyone from my LEO's internal affairs, BATFE internal affairs, Mayor, District, and state attorneys, and just about everyone else I could think of.

So my questions are:

Why didn't BATFE get a warrant to search my home? They had plenty of time as I was 8 hours away.

And why did the BATFE lie about having my FN-FAL?

Two days after my faxing furry, a BATFE supervisor was at my front door handing me my rifle. Yes he was polite and appologised, and he explained that his agents are not experts on firearms. Often they don't know what they are looking at, and take the firearm to their expert who examines the weapon to see if any crime has been committed. This I understand, but saying your agency doesn't have it, and also searching without a warrant is troubling.

I don't have any hate torwards the agency. My LEO friends said these were all Good Cops that just made bad choices, and the Capt. on the scene should have watched them closer as she's the one who should know better than all of them. They also explained that if the suspects touched something, then thats reason to examine the object. Fine then, but why did they want to get into my locked gun safe then? It's locked. The suspects didn't touch any of the contents.... Also why did they ransack a room that the suspects never went into? They even ransacked my wifes "Naughty drawer!".. LOL

And to make matters even worse, the LEO's on the scene found a S&W 9mm on the floor of my kids room. When the Crime scene tech picked it up, she shot a hole through my wall and couch.... They bought me a new couch....

Ok. Questions done. I got my firearm back. Got 3 more safes, and an alarm that calls ME, and not the cops.

Again, no hate. But who's in charge there???
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Old 01-02-2013, 22:26   #59
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Prior to1986, class 2 manufacturer makes a 5 gallon bucket full of M-16 auto sears and marks them all with serial numbers. He submitted all the paperwork to BATF several times and they continue to "lose" the paperwork. So he sends it in a diplomatic pouch from his senator's office directly to BATF.

A few weeks later, agents show up at his shop with pre-typed violations, do a bogus audit where"Bill" catches them trying to pocket auto-sears and as they leave, one great "advocate" of the 2nd amendment says "you complain too much."

Bill is issued a revocation of his FFL license, goes through hearings and U.S. District court where the judge rules that there were no violations, but she'll let the revocation stand.

So screw you and the rest of your buddy-so-called patriots and protectors of the 2nd Amendment. You are either naive and ignorant (or just plain stupid) or a bald-faced liar.
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Old 01-02-2013, 23:46   #60
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Wow! I'm not even going to bring up the SRT Supply frackus a few years back.

You guys can google that one...


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Old 01-03-2013, 17:38   #61
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Originally Posted by railfancwb View Post
Still waiting to hear that Gregory has been arrested and charged with violating DC's "high capacity" magazine ban. And I suspect one or more additional NBC:Meet the Press employees were involved. I doubt that Gregoru went to a LGS and bought it...all were probably sold out by that time.


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Must be nice to belong to the "I'm above the law" crowd. I wonder how one gets a fraternity card?

Oh, never mind. I just figured it out. You can join any one of the alphabet soup government agencies or become a member of the press. Then you're good to go. No laws apply.
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Old 01-03-2013, 18:22   #62
Jerry
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Originally Posted by GunHo198 View Post
Here's my question for the BATFE..

About 8 years ago while I was out of state, my home was broken into. I got a call from family, and quickly called a friend of mine on the LEO as he knew I have a large gun collection. He notified the officers responding to check on my collection. I had an FN FAL out of the safe as there wasn't any room for it. (My mistake). When they got there the FN FAL was sitting by the broken front door. The LEO's that were there spotted my ammo crate marke 81mm HE and called in the Bomb squad and the BATFE. As I'm driving back to my state, I'm on the phone with a Capt. of my LEO and she said my master bedroom was one of the few rooms the suspects did not enter. But she wanted to know what was in the locked ammo crate. I told her it's contents. Military maps, etc.. left over from my service and she could pop it open and check it out if it made her feel better. While all this was going on I had a friend go to my house to represent me, and take custody of my too scared to death dogs. Meanwhile he observed, the Leo run a K-9 through my house (which took a dump in my office), and saw BATFE and the LEO ransacking my house. Not only did they do a thorough ransacking, they even crawled under it through my crawl space to see if I had a hidden basement. (In Florida) In the end, BATF took my FN-FAL with them. The had asked me over the phone where my keys were to the gun safe, but I had those on me. However, someone attempted to drill out the lock, yet when the burglars saw the cops they ran off, and didn't leave behind any drills or tools. When I got home they were all gone and my home was trashed! I took pictures of every room including my master bedroom that was NEVER touched by the suspects. Every bed in my home was tossed including the Master bedroom. Every dresser drawer in the house was also tossed including the master bedroom. And to add insult to injury, when I called the BATFE about my FN-FAL, they said they didn't take it, it was my LEO. When I called my LEO, they said BATFE took it. I contacted my buddies in the LEO and one of them works in the evidence room and verified that it wasn't there, that BATFE infact did take it with them.

As you can see here, this leaves me with many questions.

So after I lawyered up. The guys on my LEO told me who to FAX my hate letter too. I faxed everyone from my LEO's internal affairs, BATFE internal affairs, Mayor, District, and state attorneys, and just about everyone else I could think of.

So my questions are:

Why didn't BATFE get a warrant to search my home? They had plenty of time as I was 8 hours away.

And why did the BATFE lie about having my FN-FAL?

Two days after my faxing furry, a BATFE supervisor was at my front door handing me my rifle. Yes he was polite and appologised, and he explained that his agents are not experts on firearms. Often they don't know what they are looking at, and take the firearm to their expert who examines the weapon to see if any crime has been committed. This I understand, but saying your agency doesn't have it, and also searching without a warrant is troubling.

I don't have any hate torwards the agency. My LEO friends said these were all Good Cops that just made bad choices, and the Capt. on the scene should have watched them closer as she's the one who should know better than all of them. They also explained that if the suspects touched something, then thats reason to examine the object. Fine then, but why did they want to get into my locked gun safe then? It's locked. The suspects didn't touch any of the contents.... Also why did they ransack a room that the suspects never went into? They even ransacked my wifes "Naughty drawer!".. LOL

And to make matters even worse, the LEO's on the scene found a S&W 9mm on the floor of my kids room. When the Crime scene tech picked it up, she shot a hole through my wall and couch.... They bought me a new couch....

Ok. Questions done. I got my firearm back. Got 3 more safes, and an alarm that calls ME, and not the cops.

Again, no hate. But who's in charge there???
First let me say that I'm really sorry to hear that this happened to you. Second let me say this is not the first story of this type I've heard of. Third, I'm glad you hold no animosity against the ATF because the only visit I ever had from them 1973 was actually handled professionally and courteously. However I've heard of too may horror srories since for me to have love for the BTAF&E. They keep adding letters.

I was at the range today. I was going back and forth to the rifle rack as I was sighting in a scope and testing loads for different rifles. Shot five change rifles, shoot five change rifles. At on point I turned around and there was a "gentleman" standing there with a windbreaker on that said FBI. AND HE WAS LOOKING AT ME!. Jerry I says... here we go. I just said hi. He said hi, are those two scopes the same. I said they are. They are both Night Force. However one is a higher power than than other and one has a target radical and the other a hunting redial. He smiled and said "OH". I swapped out rifles and sat at the bench. When I looked back he was gone.
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:17   #63
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The only thing I'll add to this, after hearing many, many stories that always end badly concerning this particular alphabet agency.

Any person, who works for, with, or in any way with them, is a traitor to this country, and should suffer the fate of a traitor. I feel the same about the IRS.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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