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Old 12-09-2011, 08:56   #21
JuneyBooney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViennaGambit View Post
Honestly, I think it will come down to the officer...

I know here in AZ, TECHNICALLY you cannot be within 1,000 feet which includes driving by - schools are everywhere so it is almost impossible to drive through the valley and not be in violation every few miles...

This is a major argument for getting your CCW in AZ as it allows, you just cannot carry on school property.
That law can be averted because there are houses within 1000 feet of schools. Mainly it is being on school property ie in the building during school hours.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:32   #22
Sam Spade
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Other posters have hit the legalities very well. I'll add a practicality:

Local cops do not enforce federal law.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:39   #23
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CA permit holders are exempt from any Gun Free School Zones. We can even carry on school grounds K-12 and colleges/universities.
Really? In California, the land of the super paranoid antigunners? Will wonders never cease! Well, you're certainly more free is this instance than most of the other states.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:42   #24
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Can an off duty cop ccw or open carry in or on school property?
If they are licensed by the state which the school zone is in yes they can. As far as this law is concerned open or concealed carry doesn't matter. Even if you are transporting the gun per state law (lets say state law requires it to only be in a case without a CCW). If you only have it in the case you are violating GFSZA. Now if you put it in the case, locked, in the trunk you're legal per federal law.

Now in a state like Michigan if you own a handgun you have a license to carry whether it be the so called "purchase permit" (per state law it's actually a license to purchase, possess, carry, and transport a pistol) or CPL. So really officers in Michigan that own handguns are exempt for it completely.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:19   #25
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Originally Posted by TexanRon View Post
Can only speak for Texas, but, driving through a schoolzone is no problem, i.e., going from point "A" to "B", without stopping. It is the being on the school property that is prohibited. YMMV.
I thought if you had a CHL in Texas you could legally carry on school property just not inside the school itself?
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:23   #26
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I ended up reading the laws on this subject on in.gov website and it said that as long as the person is licensed to possess a firearm they are allowed be on school grounds to drop off or pick someone up as long as the gun stays in their vehicle. So i guess that would mean legally this does not permit a gun with 1000 feet of school property for any other reason. I guess the only way to know for sure is to ask a few different police officers. Thanks for the quick replies!
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Old 12-09-2011, 16:17   #27
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I ended up reading the laws on this subject on in.gov website and it said that as long as the person is licensed to possess a firearm they are allowed be on school grounds to drop off or pick someone up as long as the gun stays in their vehicle. So i guess that would mean legally this does not permit a gun with 1000 feet of school property for any other reason. I guess the only way to know for sure is to ask a few different police officers. Thanks for the quick replies!
DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!! As far as being able to carry on school grounds that is going to depend on state law. You can be within 1,000 feet of school legally, per federal law, as long as you have a license to carry from the state which the school is located. A friend I know who lives in Indiana says she sees dads all the time standing outside the school open carrying. From the sound of it they are in the parking lot. I'd suggest check out opencarry.org and going to the Indiana forum. People there tend to know what they're talking about. And if they talk about any laws ask for a cite. That's your best best. DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!!
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Old 12-10-2011, 07:13   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!! As far as being able to carry on school grounds that is going to depend on state law. You can be within 1,000 feet of school legally, per federal law, as long as you have a license to carry from the state which the school is located. A friend I know who lives in Indiana says she sees dads all the time standing outside the school open carrying. From the sound of it they are in the parking lot. I'd suggest check out opencarry.org and going to the Indiana forum. People there tend to know what they're talking about. And if they talk about any laws ask for a cite. That's your best best. DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!!
I wouldn't take legal advice from a police officer I was having an encounter with but I think asking police is a great idea at other times, who do you think actually enforces those laws? Now I'm not going to take it as Holy Gospel but if I get the same answer from multiple LEOs then I'm going to put a little more credence in it. I've spoken with LEOs from three states as well as a couple lawyers and have been told the same thing by all of them. Unless you are either stopped by a Federal LE agency or else do something stupid to get charged by the US Attorney it's a non issue.
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Old 12-10-2011, 12:30   #29
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I wouldn't take legal advice from a police officer I was having an encounter with but I think asking police is a great idea at other times, who do you think actually enforces those laws? Now I'm not going to take it as Holy Gospel but if I get the same answer from multiple LEOs then I'm going to put a little more credence in it. I've spoken with LEOs from three states as well as a couple lawyers and have been told the same thing by all of them. Unless you are either stopped by a Federal LE agency or else do something stupid to get charged by the US Attorney it's a non issue.
Firearms attorney is fine but not police. Just because they enforce the laws doesn't mean they know them. Go back 5-7 years in Michigan and there are a lot of cops who'd tell you OC is illegal in Michigan. Even though it's never been. I strongly recommend not taking legal advice from police and if you do look the laws up online to make sure they are correct. Just because a cop tells you something is legal doesn't mean you can do it. Suppose another cop catches you doing what that cop said was legal and you say "Well this other cop told me" won't hold up. Especially in court.
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Old 12-10-2011, 13:07   #30
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Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
Firearms attorney is fine but not police. Just because they enforce the laws doesn't mean they know them. Go back 5-7 years in Michigan and there are a lot of cops who'd tell you OC is illegal in Michigan. Even though it's never been. I strongly recommend not taking legal advice from police and if you do look the laws up online to make sure they are correct. Just because a cop tells you something is legal doesn't mean you can do it. Suppose another cop catches you doing what that cop said was legal and you say "Well this other cop told me" won't hold up. Especially in court.
If you have admissible evidence of what the other officer told you or the other officer will testify to the fact you may have a good defense.

Of course, not putting yourself into a position where you need to defend your actions is much preferred.
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Old 12-10-2011, 14:16   #31
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If you have admissible evidence of what the other officer told you or the other officer will testify to the fact you may have a good defense.

Of course, not putting yourself into a position where you need to defend your actions is much preferred.
Negligence of the law is no excuse. Prosecution will say you are responsible for knowing the law and you'd have to be able to find that officer and get him on the stand. And you'd better have the time and money to defend yourself in court.
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Old 12-10-2011, 17:12   #32
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i think unless your in the school or on the school grounds i wouldnt worry about it....even walking on the sidewalk past a school...who's gonna know, who's gonna care

i think you may be thinking too much

when ive called the local cops about firearms issues they never have a clue...i called 2 weeks ago to ask about how close i shoot away from houses....i was transfered 3x....and finally they admitted they didnt know for sure, but the consensus between everyone there was around 200 yards....

i wondered why i even called...
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Old 12-10-2011, 17:15   #33
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Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
Negligence of the law is no excuse.
Being wrongfully informed by a sworn government employee who you reasonably believe knows the law is a potential excuse.

There is nothing "negligent" about listening to a law enforcement officer telling you something is legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
Prosecution will say you are responsible for knowing the law and you'd have to be able to find that officer and get him on the stand. And you'd better have the time and money to defend yourself in court.
The above portion of your post leads me to believe that you did not read my entire post. Here it is again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
If you have admissible evidence of what the other officer told you or the other officer will testify to the fact you may have a good defense.

Of course, not putting yourself into a position where you need to defend your actions is much preferred.
Note that I specifically stated "if" you have admissible evidence of what the officer told you or the officer will testify, that you may have a good defense.

Also note that I specifically stated not being in that position, where your action needs to be defended, is much preferred.


Personal example: When I was living in Indiana I was unsure if the word school, in the law, referred to colleges or just k-12. I emailed the state police and an Lt. responded, stating that it did not appear to apply to colleges. I saved that email. That would, if it came down to it, at least give me a leg to stand on.

I later asked a lawyer I met (was a college instructor of mine) who verified that.


Edit: Here is the email I received back:

Indiana code is available online on Access Indiana at
www.state.in.us/legislative/ic/code. Indiana code 35-41-1-24.7 defines
school property. This definition appears to exclude colleges and
universities. Therefore, the criminal statute for possession of a firearm
on school property does not seem to include colleges and universities.
However, pursuant to policy or handbook, colleges and universities may
prohibit possession of firearms. You may contact the particular college or
university of interest regarding a policy.

You may contact private legal counsel for further information.

______, Lieutenant
Indiana State Police




^^^I think that's a pretty good basis for a defense. Do you?
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Old 12-10-2011, 17:47   #34
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Hey if your willing to take legal advice from them go for it. You MIGHT be LUCKY enough to get off on charges should you receive wrong legal advice but I never would nor would I ever recommend anyone else.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:52   #35
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If I'm getting the same answer across jurisdictions, states and levels of LE then I am going to accept it. I will take the opinions of those that are out on the street enforcing the law over a single ten year old letter from the ATF that I had never seen until this week.
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:05   #36
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Why can't they just legalize carry in schools by permitted, peaceable adults and save lots of money on unnecessary, contradictory legislation?
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:59   #37
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Why can't they just legalize carry in schools by permitted, peaceable adults and save lots of money on unnecessary, contradictory legislation?
Because it's too logical and reasonable.
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:46   #38
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If I'm getting the same answer across jurisdictions, states and levels of LE then I am going to accept it. I will take the opinions of those that are out on the street enforcing the law over a single ten year old letter from the ATF that I had never seen until this week.
Chances are if a lot of them are telling you something it's true. But there's no doubt that to be within 1,000 feet of a school you need a permit from the state which you are in. It's very unlikely you will get in any trouble if you are especially in a state like Arizona or Indiana but it is possible.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:00   #39
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Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
In Kentucky, I can legally drop off little Johnny at school while CCW as long as I remain INSIDE my vehicle and do not brandish said weapon.
Same here in WA State. . Been that way for years and remarkably, no one has gone wacko, jumped outta their car and started shooting people.

Maybe people with CCW permits actually are for the most part, law abiding individuals!
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:03   #40
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Because it's too logical and reasonable.
Logical and Reasonable haven't been a part of the legislative process for many years now. . .
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