Why if you OC, have a good retention system, open carrier shot with own gun

Deaf Smith · 12-06-2011, 17:21

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...ns-ar-1510369/

Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

Yes to murders and it looks like the CCW carrier's gun was used in both, including the murder of the CCW carrier!

And that is the problem with OC. Cops use a duty belt and retention system that is strong enough to stop the snatch of even a drug crazed nutjob.

Think about it.

Deaf

Moderator Note: If you want to start a rude and insulting testosterone spewing contest about open carry, go somewhere else. Do it here and you'll not like the results.

If you want to discuss this event in a reasonable manner, you're welcome to stay.

IndyGunFreak · 12-06-2011, 17:29

Well, situational awareness is also important.

It sounds to me, like there was *at least* 2 weapons in the store, since they need to do ballistic testing to see if he was killed with his own firearm. They're also not sure if his gun was used to kill the other victim.

We may well have a case of "Concealed carry could have prevented this".

Very sad situation though, thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims.

Gunnut 45/454 · 12-06-2011, 17:41

Deaf Smith
Gee even cops with all there retension holsters get them taken away! When I OC I'm awear of everyone around me-Sounds like those two followed him and then pounced on him. Bad SA on his part. When there's no way to keep enough distance between me and others my hand is on the butt of my pistol. There is no way to snatch my pistol without getting an immediate punch to the face followed by many more! And it will most likely end with a bullet or two being added to the perps pain! CCW does pervent this! I hope both of those perps get the death sentence!

gunowner1 · 12-06-2011, 18:33

Always better to keep the firearm concealed while in a public place.

xmanhockey7 · 12-06-2011, 18:49

There are upsides and downsides to OC and CC. Also just like a citizen who OC or CC police can have their guns taken away.

Patchman · 12-06-2011, 19:00

To me, how a person chooses to carry (OC or CC) is the same as what a person chooses to carry (enough gun; enough ammo, etc...). Their choices don't affect me, so I really don't care. And if their choices don't work out, oh well... Lesson learned.

Incumbent upon the individual to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of all options, then make informed choices.

And even informed choices could later turn out to be very bad choices. Life sucks that way. Sorry.

Deaf Smith · 12-06-2011, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchman

Their choices don't affect me, so I really don't care. And if their choices don't work out, oh well... .

Choice does kind of affect you. Notice the 16 year old went off and tried to rob someone else and killed them with the CCW's gun. That could have been you or a loved one.

That is what the ballistics test is about. The other victim was in a car blocks off and robbed/shot dead.

The same 16 yr old is supposed to have done both.

And as for retention, yea cops now and then have someone TRY to snatch them. Mostly the thug fails.

Deaf

jp3975 · 12-06-2011, 19:18

You cant be "aware" and prevent this. For those that are hardcore about oc and carry to coffee shops and everywhere else...You're going to be "aware" of people in line behind you? If I want your gun and we're in Walmart...you're loosing it.

This is why oc is a bad thing. It makes other gun owners look bad when someone gets shot with their own gun. Just more fodder for the antis.

And really...when in town what does it accomplish? Looking cool? It should be concealed only imo. And not just because somebody will snatch your gun and kill you with it...but you'll definitely be shot in a robbery/ mass shooting if they see it before they start.

With CC its a surprise.

jp3975 · 12-06-2011, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmanhockey7

There are upsides and downsides to OC and CC. Also just like a citizen who OC or CC police can have their guns taken away.

But everyone knows police have guns. So they may as well oc. You have a great advantage if no one knows you have a gun.

cowboy1964 · 12-06-2011, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454

When I OC I'm awear of everyone around me-Sounds like those two followed him and then pounced on him. Bad SA on his part. When there's no way to keep enough distance between me and others my hand is on the butt of my pistol.

Would love to see the reactions you must get standing in line at the checkout at Wally World with your hand on your gun.

xmanhockey7 · 12-06-2011, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp3975

And not just because somebody will snatch your gun and kill you with it...but you'll definitely be shot in a robbery/ mass shooting if they see it before they start.

Cite please??? Oh wait I have one!
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...bbery-kennesaw

**RussP** · 12-06-2011, 20:04

For those not familiar with Richmond, this occurred about 4 blocks from the Richmond PD 2nd Precinct.

That neighborhood has been a rough one since the mid to late 60s. It is certainly not a place I'm comfortable being after dark now.

There is a followup story here: http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...in-ar-1505438/

In the story the victim's wife said he got a gun this year for protection because of an incident years ago that she said had made him feel defenseless.

What was he doing at that location, some will ask. Well, he lived in apartments 650 yards from the station. Might say that was the neighborhood convenience store.

This is an example, sadly, of why I stick to my personal rules for open carry. I open carry only when and where appropriate. In this case, the "when" is the more important criteria. I do not open carry from about 30 minutes before sunset and not until 30 minutes after sunrise. That is just where my comfort level is.

As far as situational awareness, it appears Tyler was followed into the store and immediately attacked. Just illustrates situational awareness is a full time job.

jp3975 · 12-06-2011, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmanhockey7

Cite please??? Oh wait I have one!
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...bbery-kennesaw

Kinda hard to disarm two people open carrying...and of course the robbers have to be willing to kill. If they are, you're dead.

In any case, of course it will deter some folks. But any idiot can walk behind you in a public setting like a store or restaurant and take it.

jack76590 · 12-06-2011, 22:55

Finally happened man open carrying has gun grabbed and is shot with own gun.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...ns-ar-1510369/

Moderator Note: I merged jack76590's thread with a previously posted thread to keep the discussions together.

kensteele · 12-06-2011, 23:10

So the victim was chasing after the suspect when his gun was taken?

Schrag4 · 12-06-2011, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensteele

So the victim was chasing after the suspect when his gun was taken?

I read it to mean that the victim had his gun stolen then chased after the thief. Dunno. It wasn't very clearly written.

FM12 · 12-06-2011, 23:19

Apparently OC didnt prevent this!

brausso · 12-06-2011, 23:21

For **** sake what is wrong with people?

Lock that little **** up and throw away the keys

TDC20 · 12-06-2011, 23:43

This is why I prefer concealed carry over open carry. Had the victim been carrying concealed, two people would be alive today, including himself. The savages would have passed him over and he would have never even known how close he was to danger.

Why is it that juvenile records are sealed? Maybe for shoplifting or something minor like that, but anyone sociopathic enough to be committing violent felonies at age 13...why hide something like that? I think the public has a right to know and identify criminally dangerous people, regardless of age, especially if the courts are not going to lock them up..

Anyway, the courts have dropped the ball on this one and now two people are dead. -1 for open carry.

Atomic Punk · 12-06-2011, 23:59

CC would have prevented this?

or a good retention holster?

Foxtrotx1 · 12-07-2011, 00:48

Open Carry: Tactical Failure.

***HerrGlock*** · 12-07-2011, 01:31

I'm all set up to be amused. I feel badly for the guy but now, after a few million people open carried for a few hundred man-years those that feel somehow morally superior to those who open carry finally, FINALLY have ONE instance where someone was killed with his own gun.

It's going to be interesting to see how many believe this vindicates their position.

JuneyBooney · 12-07-2011, 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schrag4

I read it to mean that the victim had his gun stolen then chased after the thief. Dunno. It wasn't very clearly written.

That is what was written and I guess it shows the need for a back up weapon to be used to get your gun back if it is stolen. Poor guy should have been carrying "concealed" in that part of town.

FireForged · 12-07-2011, 10:01

Quote:

It sounds to me, like there was *at least* 2 weapons in the store, since they need to do ballistic testing to see if he was killed with his own firearm. They're also not sure if his gun was used to kill the other victim.

not really, it could mean that initial indications are that it was his own gun but they are professional enough not to assume that is the case until they have evidence to support or negate that belief.

FireForged · 12-07-2011, 10:12

A person in a public place is not always going to be able to control the environment around them or the proximity of others. I mean, you cant go through a store and demand a 10 foot "reactionary gap". There are "issues" that exist when OCing that do not when CCing. The dynamic lends to a interesting debate.