[Eurodriver]

See Post #8 for an Update to the thread below:



The setup: BCM 12.5" SS upper with free floating barrel and DD OmegaX 7" rail. I used a grippod for front support (No, I don't keep it on there) and a sandbag for a rear rest. I actually shot from the prone, but this is the only pic I have of the setup.



What I was shooting at: Paper targets at 300 and 565, and (2) 8" steel gongs at 565 (Not labeled)



Now, normally I do all of my shooting with M855 because thats what I have for SHTF...but I was having a really ****ty time trying to hit anything at 565 yards with the sustained 15mph winds (25mph gusts) we were having today. The inconsistency of this ammunition really showed with the winds as bad as they were. Groups at 300 were nothing to write home about, about 12". Still, 4 MOA with M855 at 300 yards is respectable...but nothing to write a thread about

The winds presented a problem, because I don't consider a 3 or even a 5 shot group a "group" at all. I don't even like to adjust my zero off a 3 shot group because you have no idea if the next 7 shots will be higher, lower, etc. I consider 10 shot groups a minimum for both judging precision and assessing an accurate zero.

With that said, I only had one box of Hornady 75gr ammunition. Twenty rounds. I had to confirm my zero was good at 100 with 5 rounds which left (2) 5-round groups at 300 and (1) 5 round group at 565. Unfortunately, zeroing took 8 rounds. I was shooting at the bottom target and the rounds were going below the entire target into the dirt. It took 2 rounds before I figured out what was even going on.

Here are the results, I didn't measure but I'm guessing 1.25 MOA max. They look a shade under 4".



Again, I consider 3 shot groups worthless but it is what it is. For reference the blue man is 14" wide.




Trying to zero my SCAR at 300...looks like I need to adjust a little left.


The SCAR 17 really impressed me at 565 as well. With Federal M80 ammunition I nailed the gong about 1/4 rounds. 8" at 565 yards works out to about 1.40 MOA. Not bad.

Optics used were 4x ACOGs.

[WoodenPlank]

Nothin' to complain about there, Euro. On a less windy day, I'm sure those groups would be tighter. I just wish I had a range here with those kinds of distances (not to mention the magnified optic to even have a prayer of seeing the target).

[MAJINKONG]

Sir Euro,

I presently have a noveske 12.5 gpr.

I have a T1 mounted, if i add an aimpoint 3X Mag, would it be possible to shoot at those
distances you are shooting?

[Gunnut 45/454]

I just stuck a 3X9 on my PSA and got it on paper at 50 yards today ,before the wind started blowing mach 90! I want to do some long distance with this rig -once I get it tuned to 100 yards I'll load up 69gr MK's and see what it will do! I agree anything lighter then 69 gr and the wind just blows them all around! Since mine is a 1:7" twist the 69 gr should shoot very well.

[Detectorist]

That's good shooting. I'm surprised that your scope has that much range to compensate for the drop.

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by MAJINKONG

Sir Euro,

I presently have a noveske 12.5 gpr.

I have a T1 mounted, if i add an aimpoint 3X Mag, would it be possible to shoot at those
distances you are shooting?

You will face TWO issues shooting at 300+ yards with an Aimpoint. The first would be magnification - that can be solved with a 3x or higher magnifier behind the optic. 3x is pretty marginal for 500+ yards, though.

The second issue will be dot size. The 4MOA dot in a T1 is going to cover a full 12" circle at 300 yards, and twenty inches (yes, 20) at 500 yards. At 500 yards, the dot will be bigger than most people's torsos, making hitting even a silhouette target or popper somewhat difficult. You can use the TOP of the dot as an aiming point, but that will not make a massive difference. The reticle of an ACOG is designed for longer distances in mind, and won't cover nearly as much of the target as an Aimpoint will.

This is somewhere an EO Tech with a magnifier will generally out-perform an Aimpoint, due to the smaller 1 MOA dot in the EO Tech covering significantly less of the target than the 2-4MOA dots in Aimpoints.

If you want to try to regularly make shots past 300 yards, though, I would suggest investing in a full-time magnified optic, like an ACOG or variable power scope.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

My compliments on this particular picture. It really captures the ACOG chevron reticle nicely, and also shows what long range targets look like through a 4x32 ACOG.

Nice shooting too, considering the weather conditions.

[Eurodriver]

Update 1/06

I went back to the range today. I am VERY impressed. The wind and mirage died down allowing me to actually get the rifle zerod effectively and these are the results...

For reference: Here are the two rifles I am shooting with.
A 12.5" BCM SS upper with a TA31 ACOG
and
A 10.3" (daniel defense 16" barrel cut to 10.3") with a Centurion 9" rail and Noveske receiver using an Aimpoint T1



Here is my "rest". Not very effective but its all I had. I don't normally shoot from a rest but I wanted to eliminate as much of me as possible. Remember, the point of this is to prove that SBRs aren't "useless" at long range, not that I am a good shooter.



This is 300 yards with the 12.5" using Hornady Superperformance 53gr.



This is 200 yards with the 10.3" using M855 62gr Green Tip .mil ammo I was blown away by this. I was looking through my spotting scope after each round questioning myself "Is that really a new hole in the bullseye?" repeatedly...



Then I moved the 12.5" to 565 yards. For a target I taped two targets backwards on top of one another and one black 8" circle. I then drew in a "body". I wanted the target at this distance to be as clean as possible so I was not distracted. The BDC in the ACOG covers up the 8" circle at that distance.



This is the result with M855. I cannot stress this enough. This is not with match ammunition. I fired 10 rounds unsuppressed and then 10 rounds suppressed (unsuppressed are circled, suppressed are lined out. One round on each string of fire impacted the black) It appears that the group actually opened up a bit suppressed, but this was by no means scientific and that could have easily been user error. There was no real measurable shift in POI however.

[Eurodriver]

I love how people read the hell out of my threads but don't reply...

...then they go into another thread and talk about how they want a 24" barrel and a 24x optic for shooting at the 200 yard line.

[Alderak]

I'm no expert, but from what I've gathered, shorter=stiffer=less reverberation.

That said, I'm sure there is a sweet spot somewhere around 18-20in.

Do you know the energy your rounds would have left at that range from your barrel?
I'm certainly not going to volunteer to stand out there and catch it!

[Eurodriver]

Originally Posted by Alderak

I'm no expert, but from what I've gathered, shorter=stiffer=less reverberation.

That said, I'm sure there is a sweet spot somewhere around 18-20in.

Do you know the energy your rounds would have left at that range from your barrel?
I'm certainly not going to volunteer to stand out there and catch it!

I am guestimating around 1,400 FPS at 600 yards for 62gr 5.56mm (so slightly more at 565).

[eaglefrq]

I'm new to the AR's, but that is impressive. I have a carbine length and I just got my scope in today. Unfortunately, I won't be able to go to the range until next weekend.

The sight-in range I'll use is 100 yds, and I'm looking at joining a private range that has a 200 yd range. I can't wait to get out and play.

[Detectorist]

It would be a lot more impressive without a scope.

[Matthew Courtney]

Short stainless steel barrels are the most accurate barrels around. The trick is being able to shoot them precisely. Accurate ranging is critical to maximizing their precision potential, because lower velocities allow drop and drift to have a larger effect on POI.

If one knows the range, knows his rifle, and is a good marksman, 600 yards is very managable. Great job!

[Detectorist]

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

I love how people read the hell out of my threads but don't reply...

...then they go into another thread and talk about how they want a 24" barrel and a 24x optic for shooting at the 200 yard line.

Just wait 'till i get my hands on a new BCM AR A4 20" barrel. We'll see who's king of the hill.

[Shinesintx]

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

I am guestimating around 1,400 FPS at 600 yards for 62gr 5.56mm (so slightly more at 565).

On your 10.5 inch barrel I think its closer to 2300 fps, whereas a 16 inch barrel is at 2800 fps. Dont quote me on this, its been a year since I researched it.

Edit: I am talking about leaving the barrel. Have no clue as to what its doing by the time it hits the target.

[Eurodriver]

Originally Posted by Detectorist

Just wait 'till i get my hands on a new BCM AR A4 20" barrel. We'll see who's king of the hill.

Good luck. My BCM 20" was way less accurate than my 14.5" Midlength 6 months ago.

I sold the 20".

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by Detectorist

It would be a lot more impressive without a scope.

Did you miss the fact that the 10.3" only had an Aimpoint T1 mounted on it? No magnification, still dropping them in what looks like a 4" group at 200 yards.

[Detectorist]

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

Good luck. My BCM 20" was way less accurate than my 14.5" Midlength 6 months ago.

I sold the 20".

Did your BCM 20" have the same quality barrel, etc. as your mid length?

I've seen guys consistently hit man sized targets with an M16 at 600 meters.. using iron sights.

[CAcop]

Originally Posted by Shinesintx

On your 10.5 inch barrel I think its closer to 2300 fps, whereas a 16 inch barrel is at 2800 fps. Dont quote me on this, its been a year since I researched it.

Edit: I am talking about leaving the barrel. Have no clue as to what its doing by the time it hits the target.

According to this calculator http://www.handloads.com/calc/ with 2300 at the muzzle a 62 grainer will be 1068 at 600. 2800 mv at 600 y will be 1273 fps. Add about 100 fps and 75 fps respectively for a boatail.

[Boxerglocker]

Great shooting....

What light/mount combo is that you have on the SBR? Do you have a close-up pick you could post?

[Eurodriver]

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker

Great shooting....

What light/mount combo is that you have on the SBR? Do you have a close-up pick you could post?

Check out this thread for information.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1390991

It is a Haley Strategic IWC Thorntail. They make them for 1" OD flashlights and Surefire Scount lights.

Originally Posted by Detectorist

Did your BCM 20" have the same quality barrel, etc. as your mid length?

I've seen guys consistently hit man sized targets with an M16 at 600 meters.. using iron sights.

Yes. Both were standard BCM uppers. The 20" had a KAC M5 rail and the 14.5" had MOE Handguards. Both had the same optic (TA31 ACOG). I was shooting about 1 MOA better with the 14.5" at 300 yards. I have since sold the 20".

I have done it too, Marines qualify at 500 yards with iron sights and the same ammunition. This is from the prone unsupported with nothing but a sling for tension. However, starting around 2008 all SNCOs and Officers, and since 2011 entire FMF units use ACOGs for qualification. The point is not that its impossible with iron sights, it isn't. I've said that many times here before. The point is that I am using a 12.5" barrel. Did you not see that 7 shot 300 yard group? Thats easily .75 MOA. At 300 yards. With an SBR and a 4x optic.

It also must be pointed out that for Marines the black on the long range Echo targets are 20"x40" and the 2 ring is about the size of the front profile of a minivan. My entire cardboard target was 24"x24".

Just to reiterate. No one it saying it can't be done with irons, I have done it. Almost every Marine has done it (which is why we giggle a little when people come on forums like this and say they need a 10x optic to shoot at 200 yards) the point is that you don't need a long barrel for long range precision...at least to 300 yards.

[Eurodriver]

Originally Posted by CAcop

According to this calculator http://www.handloads.com/calc/ with 2300 at the muzzle a 62 grainer will be 1068 at 600. 2800 mv at 600 y will be 1273 fps. Add about 100 fps and 75 fps respectively for a boatail.

M855 out of a 12.5" barrel is way more than 2300 FPS.

I should have chrono'd it while I was out there yesterday.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Eurodriver
Your right one don't need a long barreled gun to shoot distance. Heck I shoot Wissel Pigs ( Small ground squirrels ) at 200 yards plus regularly with a 22LR. Impressive group at 300 yards by the way! But when your talking about effective hits on BG's at long distance with the 5.56mm and short barreled gun we need to seperate making the hit VS. making a killing shot! As you proven making a killing shoot with a short barrel AR is more then possible out to 400 yards and beyond. The big but is how much damage one is doing at those distance. We all know Ball ammo needs velocity to perfom and get the tumbling needed to be effective. Match (OTM's) need a certain amount of velocity to fragment! Each has a velocity envelope of performance- beyond that your just punching a 22 caliber holes! We all know or should know that the shorter the barrel the shorter the range of EFFECTIVE bullet performance is!

[Detectorist]

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

Check out this thread for information.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1390991

It is a Haley Strategic IWC Thorntail. They make them for 1" OD flashlights and Surefire Scount lights.




Yes. Both were standard BCM uppers. The 20" had a KAC M5 rail and the 14.5" had MOE Handguards. Both had the same optic (TA31 ACOG). I was shooting about 1 MOA better with the 14.5" at 300 yards. I have since sold the 20".

I have done it too, Marines qualify at 500 yards with iron sights and the same ammunition. This is from the prone unsupported with nothing but a sling for tension. However, starting around 2008 all SNCOs and Officers, and since 2011 entire FMF units use ACOGs for qualification. The point is not that its impossible with iron sights, it isn't. I've said that many times here before. The point is that I am using a 12.5" barrel. Did you not see that 7 shot 300 yard group? Thats easily .75 MOA. At 300 yards. With an SBR and a 4x optic.

It also must be pointed out that for Marines the black on the long range Echo targets are 20"x40" and the 2 ring is about the size of the front profile of a minivan. My entire cardboard target was 24"x24".

Just to reiterate. No one it saying it can't be done with irons, I have done it. Almost every Marine has done it (which is why we giggle a little when people come on forums like this and say they need a 10x optic to shoot at 200 yards) the point is that you don't need a long barrel for long range precision...at least to 300 yards.

Yep, a Marine 'Marksman', the lowest category, is head and shoulders above the average Internet commando in terms of iron sights marksmanship. I didn't know they switched over to optical sights for qualification.

That's why when someone argues with me about the fact that Oswald was a poor marksman and couldn't have made the 60 yd shot, with a scope, no less, all I can do is scratch my head.

Is that range in Florida, close to Orlando?