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Old 07-10-2012, 10:45   #1
scarecrow734
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WFNGC Hardcast or TMJ or FMJ

would someone mind explaining the differenct between these rounds. and what would be more effective coming out of a G29 as a woods gun.

1) doubletap 230gr. WFNGC Hardcast
2) underwood 200 Grain Total Metal Jacket
3) buffalo bore 220 gr. Hard Cast
4) buffalo bore 200 gr. F.M.J.

im sure i am beating a dead horse i did search. i have been reading all morning.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:22   #2
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Forget all of those, and get the DT 200gr WFNGC. They should clock around 1100fps out of your G29, and it's my bullet choice for the woods (although I load my own using Beartooth's). The WFNGC is a better bullet because of its wide meplat (nose). They hit hard, plow through flesh/bone like a cookie cutter, and doesn't need nuclear velocity to penetrate. The 230gr WFNGC is too long, heavy & slow for my taste, and all the other bullets you listed have a similar profile (Truncated Cone). The TC profile of that BB 220 & 10mm FMJ/TMJ's make the bullet tend to penetrate, but just slip through without causing much damage. The TC's also tend to deflect more if/when they hit bone. The WFNGC just leaves a nasty wound in a straight line.

I know you said you searched, but we have discussed this at length here several times recently. Everyone has their own opinion, but most of us are in the same neighborhood anyway.


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Old 07-10-2012, 11:29   #3
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1) Probably won't stabilize and will most likely be inaccurate.
2) Completely covered in a copper jacket with no exposed lead. This was developed for indoor shooting to reduce smoke caused by an exposed lead base.
3) Marginally stabile.
4) Copper jacket with exposed lead base, the traditional jacketed bullet design.

The largest issue with heavy bullets is they won't stabilize in the barrel. They are too long for the rate of twist in the rifling. When they exit the barrel, they aren't a perfect spin, but are a "wounded duck". Think of a quarterback throwing a football. A short barrel like a G29 won't help matters either since the bullet is in contact with the rifling for a shorter time than a longer barrel. That being said a bullet isn't immediately stabilized when it exits the barrel. The bullet actually stabilizes a few feet downrange.

I imagine your biggest threat in the woods would be a black bear. In that case, I would recommend a 180gr jacketed bullet like the XTP or Gold Dot.

Cast bullets are best left to hunting with practical firearms more suited to the task. The term hardcast is really nothing more than a marketing term meaning harder than pure lead and harder than the next guy's bullets. Harder isn't always better.
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:14   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
1) Probably won't stabilize and will most likely be inaccurate.
2) Completely covered in a copper jacket with no exposed lead. This was developed for indoor shooting to reduce smoke caused by an exposed lead base.
3) Marginally stabile.
4) Copper jacket with exposed lead base, the traditional jacketed bullet design.

The largest issue with heavy bullets is they won't stabilize in the barrel. They are too long for the rate of twist in the rifling. When they exit the barrel, they aren't a perfect spin, but are a "wounded duck". Think of a quarterback throwing a football. A short barrel like a G29 won't help matters either since the bullet is in contact with the rifling for a shorter time than a longer barrel. That being said a bullet isn't immediately stabilized when it exits the barrel. The bullet actually stabilizes a few feet downrange.

I imagine your biggest threat in the woods would be a black bear. In that case, I would recommend a 180gr jacketed bullet like the XTP or Gold Dot.

Cast bullets are best left to hunting with practical firearms more suited to the task. The term hardcast is really nothing more than a marketing term meaning harder than pure lead and harder than the next guy's bullets. Harder isn't always better.
Please explain why any of these bullets wouldn't stabilize. A typical Glock barrel is 1:9 twist, with the slowest aftermarket barrel around 1:20 (KKM). The 230 gr. WFNGC requires any rate faster than 1:33 to stabilize. Unless there's significant rifle stripping (which is nearly non-existent with properly sized handgun bullets), it will stabilize. I've recovered (recycled) tens of thousands lead (hard and soft) and jacketed bullets fired from Glock barrels, and none indicate any stripping. If the bullet isn't stable when it leaves the barrel, nothing that affects the bullet when it leaves the muzzle will cause it to stabilize (there are exceptions, but none apply to the bullets of discussion). In fact, the opposite is often the case: Leaves the muzzle stabilized, then becomes unstable in flight. This shouldn't be a factor with any of these bullets, within their practical range. If you are shooting unstable bullets, something else is wrong.
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Old 07-10-2012, 13:27   #5
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Look at high speed video footage bullets leaving the muzzle. Paper test your ammunition. Talk to suppressor manufacturers and ask them why they have so much baffle clearance. The answer is the bullet is not stabilized when it exits the muzzle, suppressed or unsuppressed. Neither is an arrow when it leaves the bowstring.
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Old 07-10-2012, 14:11   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meathead9 View Post
Forget all of those, and get the DT 200gr WFNGC. They should clock around 1100fps out of your G29, and it's my bullet choice for the woods (although I load my own using Beartooth's). The WFNGC is a better bullet because of its wide meplat (nose). They hit hard, plow through flesh/bone like a cookie cutter, and doesn't need nuclear velocity to penetrate. The 230gr WFNGC is too long, heavy & slow for my taste, and all the other bullets you listed have a similar profile (Truncated Cone). The TC profile of that BB 220 & 10mm FMJ/TMJ's make the bullet tend to penetrate, but just slip through without causing much damage. The TC's also tend to deflect more if/when they hit bone. The WFNGC just leaves a nasty wound in a straight line.

I know you said you searched, but we have discussed this at length here several times recently. Everyone has their own opinion, but most of us are in the same neighborhood anyway.
.


Right on... I agree with ALL of it ! Good post !



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Old 07-10-2012, 14:19   #7
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Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
Please explain why any of these bullets wouldn't stabilize. A typical Glock barrel is 1:9 twist, with the slowest aftermarket barrel around 1:20 (KKM). The 230 gr. WFNGC requires any rate faster than 1:33 to stabilize. Unless there's significant rifle stripping (which is nearly non-existent with properly sized handgun bullets), it will stabilize. I've recovered (recycled) tens of thousands lead (hard and soft) and jacketed bullets fired from Glock barrels, and none indicate any stripping. If the bullet isn't stable when it leaves the barrel, nothing that affects the bullet when it leaves the muzzle will cause it to stabilize (there are exceptions, but none apply to the bullets of discussion). In fact, the opposite is often the case: Leaves the muzzle stabilized, then becomes unstable in flight. This shouldn't be a factor with any of these bullets, within their practical range. If you are shooting unstable bullets, something else is wrong.
It gets interesting at around 4:15
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Old 07-10-2012, 14:40   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
1) Probably won't stabilize and will most likely be inaccurate.
2) Completely covered in a copper jacket with no exposed lead. This was developed for indoor shooting to reduce smoke caused by an exposed lead base.
3) Marginally stabile.
4) Copper jacket with exposed lead base, the traditional jacketed bullet design.

The largest issue with heavy bullets is they won't stabilize in the barrel. They are too long for the rate of twist in the rifling. When they exit the barrel, they aren't a perfect spin, but are a "wounded duck". Think of a quarterback throwing a football. A short barrel like a G29 won't help matters either since the bullet is in contact with the rifling for a shorter time than a longer barrel. That being said a bullet isn't immediately stabilized when it exits the barrel. The bullet actually stabilizes a few feet downrange.

I imagine your biggest threat in the woods would be a black bear. In that case, I would recommend a 180gr jacketed bullet like the XTP or Gold Dot.

Cast bullets are best left to hunting with practical firearms more suited to the task. The term hardcast is really nothing more than a marketing term meaning harder than pure lead and harder than the next guy's bullets. Harder isn't always better.


Hey freakshow,

Yep gotta agree here as well, although I do like the HC 200gr WFNGC in the G20 10mm @ 1300fps. Other than that as you probably know with me, I shoot the big bore revolvers more than anything with the HC bullets and they have always preformed excellent on all manner of game small to XX large ! ha.

The OP would be bettter served with a G20, If he just "has to pack a 10mm glock." In the woods I still prefer my 44mag/45LC.


Good word!
Well stay safe.





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Old 07-10-2012, 15:14   #9
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Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
Look at high speed video footage bullets leaving the muzzle. Paper test your ammunition. Talk to suppressor manufacturers and ask them why they have so much baffle clearance. The answer is the bullet is not stabilized when it exits the muzzle, suppressed or unsuppressed. Neither is an arrow when it leaves the bowstring.
I have. I do. And I know the reason for baffle clearance, which isn't due to bullet stability. Bullet cant is part of the reason, which may be what you are referring. It is also necessary to accommodate gas pressure (the can would blow up without the clearance, or would be less suppressed). A bullet's cant isn't instability, unless it isn't stabilized. If a bullet leaves a barrel unstable, then stabilizes, it was an accident. If you throw a football wobbly, it stays wobbly. A football will rotate on the axis imparted to it by the person throwing it. A bullet will continue to rotate, on the axis of rotation the moment it is free of the bore. A bullet may correct it's cant, if its designed is aerodynamically favorable. A bullet with a more narrow nose has a CG further rearward, and is less likely to correct. Ideally, a bullet should have no cant. If it does, the cartridge and barrel selection is less than ideal. A full-wadcutter is generally more accurate, due almost entirely to its CG being closer to ideal. A WFN bullet, compared to RN, FP, etc. has the potential to fly more true, for the same reason. Shorter bullets of the same diameter and mass require less rotation rate (twist) to attain stabilized flight than longer bullets. This applies to handguns and slower rifles. The rules change considerably when about 2800 FPS is crossed (more aerodynamic affect, less centrifugal).

An arrow isn't a bullet, and their flight characteristics are very different. Bullets don't have fletching, which is what causes the stability and rotation of an arrow, after it leaves the bow. A bullet receives all the gun's affect before it exits the muzzle, and is only affected in flight by friction and gravity. It takes with it only what it was given between ignition/detonation and muzzle exit.
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Old 07-10-2012, 15:17   #10
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It gets interesting at around 4:15
Nice video. Not much different than my "unscientific" tests.
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Old 07-10-2012, 16:39   #11
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Nice video. Not much different than my "unscientific" tests.
What do you mean?
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Old 07-10-2012, 17:49   #12
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Originally Posted by Meathead9 View Post
Forget all of those, and get the DT 200gr WFNGC. They should clock around 1100fps out of your G29, and it's my bullet choice for the woods (although I load my own using Beartooth's). The WFNGC is a better bullet because of its wide meplat (nose). They hit hard, plow through flesh/bone like a cookie cutter, and doesn't need nuclear velocity to penetrate. The 230gr WFNGC is too long, heavy & slow for my taste, and all the other bullets you listed have a similar profile (Truncated Cone). The TC profile of that BB 220 & 10mm FMJ/TMJ's make the bullet tend to penetrate, but just slip through without causing much damage. The TC's also tend to deflect more if/when they hit bone. The WFNGC just leaves a nasty wound in a straight line.

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+1 to all this, good stuff.
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Old 07-10-2012, 17:55   #13
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The largest issue with heavy bullets is they won't stabilize in the barrel. They are too long for the rate of twist in the rifling. When they exit the barrel, they aren't a perfect spin, but are a "wounded duck".
Have you actually experienced keyholing from some of the heavy 10mm bullets? I never have, so I'm curious. I didn't think any of the 10mm bullets were too long for the twist rate of our barrels.

If the twist rate is too slow, you will get keyholing. Bad accuracy without keyholing is probably not a direct result of not enough twist rate.

I actually agree with dm1906 on most of this, except the stripping of the rifling; I have recovered some bullets that have partially stripped the Glock rifling, this has been with soft alloys and heavy loads. It's possible that's happening with the DT230 bullets, but I don't know.
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Old 07-10-2012, 18:09   #14
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What do you mean?
Well, you tell me. You quoted my reply, then attached the video. As I said, it's a nice video, as well as his others I've seen. Along with scientific methods, I also blow up a lot of stuff, including steel and cinder blocks, among many other things. It's easier for me than most, as I have a range not unlike his. Not very effective for testing a hunting round, as I've yet to run into a critter clad in steel or cinder blocks, or even paper, for that matter. It is fun, though.
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Old 07-10-2012, 18:39   #15
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Have you actually experienced keyholing from some of the heavy 10mm bullets? I never have, so I'm curious. I didn't think any of the 10mm bullets were too long for the twist rate of our barrels.

If the twist rate is too slow, you will get keyholing. Bad accuracy without keyholing is probably not a direct result of not enough twist rate.

I actually agree with dm1906 on most of this, except the stripping of the rifling; I have recovered some bullets that have partially stripped the Glock rifling, this has been with soft alloys and heavy loads. It's possible that's happening with the DT230 bullets, but I don't know.
This is true, about the rifle stripping. I said "Unless there's significant rifle stripping (which is nearly non-existent with properly sized handgun bullets), it will stabilize". I haven't seen it, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. That brings us back to my other suggestion, that if it's happening, something else is wrong, and/or the cartridge, barrel, or weapon is less than an ideal match. Many calibers and weapons have issues with specific cartridges and accuracy. Some combinations just don't go together. It shouldn't be happening, under any condition. If it is, something needs to change.

The keyholing, I suspect, is not a "tumble", but more likely a canted bullet. The inaccuracy (and possibly the cant) is likely due to improper unlock timing. All of this points to the same suggestion made in the video: This cartridge is not ideal for his OEM Glock (mine or yours, or the conditions, may be different). A heavier RSA may yield a similar result as changing to the LWD barrel. I would like to repeat his test, just to confirm the reasons. He called the DT rounds "cheap", which is were we disagree. A buck a round is far from "cheap", in my book (maybe because I'm cheap).
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Old 07-10-2012, 18:42   #16
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wow wasent expecting all this but thanks! would there be any gain to upgrading the barrel in my 29 ?
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Old 07-10-2012, 19:07   #17
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wow wasent expecting all this but thanks! would there be any gain to upgrading the barrel in my 29 ?
Possibly. With no more information than you have, it may be an effort in futility, or an easy fix. There are a lot of ammo options available to consider, as well. Have a look at Underwood. This may be an issue with only the 230's, and the others may do well in your OEM pistol. It's my opinion that upgrading the barrel is a good idea, as long as you aren't compromising reliability.
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Old 07-10-2012, 19:25   #18
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Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
Well, you tell me. You quoted my reply, then attached the video. As I said, it's a nice video, as well as his others I've seen. Along with scientific methods, I also blow up a lot of stuff, including steel and cinder blocks, among many other things. It's easier for me than most, as I have a range not unlike his. Not very effective for testing a hunting round, as I've yet to run into a critter clad in steel or cinder blocks, or even paper, for that matter. It is fun, though.
What I meant by showing you that video, is that Hickok45 did have stability issues with DT's 230gr WFNGC using the stock barrel. His shots at the steel, I'm guessing around 25yds, were all over the place. It was probably a 3ft group and hit everything except the target. Also the paper target showed keyholing and horrible accuracy. The LWD barrel seemed to fix it though.
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Old 07-10-2012, 19:36   #19
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What I meant by showing you that video, is that Hickok45 did have stability issues with DT's 230gr WFNGC using the stock barrel. His shots at the steel, I'm guessing around 25yds, were all over the place. It was probably a 3ft group and hit everything except the target. Also the paper target showed keyholing and horrible accuracy. The LWD barrel seemed to fix it though.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Just saying that "instability" is an often misused term. There are several reasons that can, and do, cause what we saw in the vid. An actual case of bullet instability is not at the top of the list, and is often the least likely suspect. Not saying it isn't possible, or isn't actually happening, just that there are so many other factors to consider.
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Old 07-10-2012, 22:25   #20
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Forget all of those, and get the DT 200gr WFNGC. They should clock around 1100fps out of your G29, and it's my bullet choice for the woods (although I load my own using Beartooth's). The WFNGC is a better bullet because of its wide meplat (nose). They hit hard, plow through flesh/bone like a cookie cutter, and doesn't need nuclear velocity to penetrate. The 230gr WFNGC is too long, heavy & slow for my taste, and all the other bullets you listed have a similar profile (Truncated Cone). The TC profile of that BB 220 & 10mm FMJ/TMJ's make the bullet tend to penetrate, but just slip through without causing much damage. The TC's also tend to deflect more if/when they hit bone. The WFNGC just leaves a nasty wound in a straight line.

I know you said you searched, but we have discussed this at length here several times recently. Everyone has their own opinion, but most of us are in the same neighborhood anyway.


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100% Agree. Beat me to it.
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