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Old 11-18-2011, 00:14   #1
ncvarmint
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Help! 357 sig ammo problems with bullet setback

Hello all,
I bought a G32 last week and have yet to shoot it. But i was looking at the ammo i bought with it and noticed some looked short in OAL.
Remington fmj - they were all about 1.110 in oal and i saw they are supposed to be about 1.135. so i pushed 2 round's againt's a table and with very little force i pushed the bullets in the case as far as they could go until they hit the powder.

The fiocchi ammo was 124gr fmj ammo. All but was round was 1.135-1.140 in oal. So i decided to chamber a round 3 times, and to my surprise that round went from 1.135 to 1.080 in oal. Is this normal in the caliber. I do know that can be dangerous. Should i see if the gunshops will give me my money back for this stuff. I am skeptical about the 357 sig now. Starting to think i should have got a 40s&w.
please help me
trevor
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Old 11-18-2011, 00:43   #2
CanyonMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncvarmint View Post
Hello all,
I bought a G32 last week and have yet to shoot it. But i was looking at the ammo i bought with it and noticed some looked short in OAL.
Remington fmj - they were all about 1.110 in oal and i saw they are supposed to be about 1.135. so i pushed 2 round's againt's a table and with very little force i pushed the bullets in the case as far as they could go until they hit the powder.

The fiocchi ammo was 124gr fmj ammo. All but was round was 1.135-1.140 in oal. So i decided to chamber a round 3 times, and to my surprise that round went from 1.135 to 1.080 in oal. Is this normal in the caliber. I do know that can be dangerous. Should i see if the gunshops will give me my money back for this stuff. I am skeptical about the 357 sig now. Starting to think i should have got a 40s&w.
please help me
trevor

Man I hate to hear this, but it was my experience years ago as well... Now so no one get upset here, I am not cuttin down folks choice of having their 357sig.

I had one, a 31 ( i think it was), and I started out buying ammo for it before i could afford the dies and everything else to add to my reloading set up. The ammo even at Bass Pro shop was remington and some were dropped down into the case. I looked before i left the store and gave them back.

I had the set back problem with is cartridge way to much. Then started hand loading my own. been loading over over 40 years, but I will tell ya I guess i am not smart enough to load for the 357 sig. I did all I knew and my experience would allow. But I would have them set back hitting the feed ramp, or while giving the light push as you did on the loading bench with the nose of the bullet against it, the bullet would plop back in the case. I did everything. No luck

I called Speer, as I was using their manual as a loading guide for that cartridge at the time, and he explained to me that at the "factory," they use a certain adhesive (sp) in the small mouth of the bottle neck to aid in holding the bullet in place, on and on.

I never could master it to any degree of perfection, and grew to hate that bullet barely being in the neck of the cartridge, so that, and the fact i just did not see i need for the caliber any way over my snubby 357mags, i sold it..

There ya go. ha. I know some guys on here love them, and swear by them, and load for them... I have a real good friend who is a Narc, and he has put several people in the grave with his G33, and has nothing but praise for it.

I just could not justify it over a 3" Ruger SP101 357 mag with full throttle factory loads, 'and' my heavy hand loads as well. That i think was the real reason I sold it.


If there's anything in here for ya then good. If not, sorry. Perhaps someone smarter than me can help ya with the loading process. I did not have the patients for loading this little bottle neck. But as I said, the real reason was i saw no advantage to it over my 357mags.

No flaming please.. I just don't like the cartridge, like some don't like the 45 or the 40 or the 9, well this is the one I don't like. That simple.


Good luck amigo !




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Last edited by CanyonMan; 11-18-2011 at 00:53..
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Old 11-18-2011, 00:48   #3
ncvarmint
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thank you
I may try selling it, and getting a g23. I wonder if it will sell good being a od frame
trevor
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
Man I hate to hear this, but it was my experience years ago as well... Now so no one get upset here, I am not cuttin down folks choice of having their 357sig.

I had one, a 31 ( i think it was), and I started out buying ammo for it before i could afford the dies and everything else to add to my reloading set up. The ammo even at Bass Pro shop was remington and some were dropped down into the case. I looked before i left the store and gave them back.

I had the set back problem with is cartridge way to much. Then started hand loading my own. been loading over over 40 years, but I will tell ya I guess i am not smart enough to load for the 357 sig. I did all I knew and my experience would allow. But I would have them set back hitting the feed ramp, or while giving the light push as you did on the loading bench with the nose of the bullet against it, the bullet would plop back in the case. I did everything. No luck

I called Speer, as I was using their manual as a loading guide for that cartridge at the time, and he explained to me that at the "factory," they use a certain adhesive (sp) in the small mouth of the bottle neck to aid in holding the bullet in place, on and on.

I never could master it to any degree of perfection, and grew to hate that bullet barely being in the neck of the cartridge, so that, and the fact i just did not see i need for the caliber any way over my snubby 357mags, i sold it..

There ya go. ha. I know some guys on here love them, and swear by them, and load for them... I have a real good friend who is a Narc, and he has put several people in the grave with his G33, and has nothing but praise for it.

I just could not justify it over a 3" Ruger SP101 357 mag with full throttle factory loads, 'and' my heavy hand loads as well. That i think was the real reason I sold it.


If there's anything in here for ya then good. If not, sorry. Perhaps someone smarter than me can help ya with the loading process. I did not have the patients for loading this little bottle neck. But as I said, the real reason was i saw no advantage to it over my 357mags.


Good luck amigo !




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Old 11-18-2011, 02:00   #4
CanyonMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncvarmint View Post
thank you
I may try selling it, and getting a g23. I wonder if it will sell good being a od frame
trevor
Man amigo, I did not mean to scare ya into running out and selling your gun bud. Think on it and get some other opinions. As said there are plenty of folks who love the round. I don't for the reasons shared with yo. I would far rather have a G23 than a 357sig. I've had them all. I like the G22 and G23 very much. With 180gr Bonded bullets like WW PDX1, or Hornady 180gr TAP, or 180gr GD's etc, i do believe it is a god round and in all our testing it has proved itself especially with these rounds, and Ranger T-series 180's as well to be plenty good.

Not that everything the FBI does is great, or we have to drool over, ha. But they did choose the 40S&W and the WW PDX1 180 gr bonded bullet to use in their service. Any and all bullets can set back under certain conditions. But it has been my experience that the sig round is the worst about it...

As for the OD, I would not worry about that to much ask 525.00 for the gun and come down to 500,00. It should sell easy.


Again, good luck to ya bud. Give it some thought and do what "you" feel good about and are going to like and be comfortable and confident with.



Stay safe !




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Last edited by CanyonMan; 11-18-2011 at 02:01..
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Old 11-18-2011, 03:21   #5
Chunky Mayonnaise
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Its definitely odd to see that much setback. I personally have a 31, and newly acquired 32. I've shot a good amount of Speer Lawman 125gr, Winchester White box 125gr, Fiocchi 124gr, Speer Gold Dot 125, Winchester Ranger 125, and a little Georgia Arms canned heat through them. Thus far I've never experienced anything like what you're describing. Also bullet setback will occur with pretty much any caliber after multiple chamberings, and even with premium ammo (Speer GoldDots/Lawman). Before you give up on it, and sell it try something other than the Remington and see if you have better luck. Even the commercially reloaded Georgia Arms performed quite nicely for me, and its cheaper than the factory stuff.
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:13   #6
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I've found Remington UMC to be the worst FMJ for setback. The bullet is not shaped right and tapers to much. I've measured setback on them right out of the box.

You have to realize the bullet on the .357sig is only held by a short section of the case neck and can not be crimped at the base of the bullet to prevent setback. Some bullets hang up more on the feed ramp more than others also. I found not sling shotting the slide helps also. I don't make a habit of rechambering rounds much either. Just the way it is. Its not really a big deal if you pay attention and measure your rounds.
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:43   #7
ncvarmint
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i am thinking of shooting the box of remingtons, what is the most the bullets can setback, and still shoot safely. I was thinking as long as the are within 20thousanths.
trevor
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:46   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncvarmint View Post
Hello all,
I bought a G32 last week and have yet to shoot it. But i was looking at the ammo i bought with it and noticed some looked short in OAL.
Remington fmj - they were all about 1.110 in oal and i saw they are supposed to be about 1.135. so i pushed 2 round's againt's a table and with very little force i pushed the bullets in the case as far as they could go until they hit the powder.

The fiocchi ammo was 124gr fmj ammo. All but was round was 1.135-1.140 in oal. So i decided to chamber a round 3 times, and to my surprise that round went from 1.135 to 1.080 in oal. Is this normal in the caliber. I do know that can be dangerous. Should i see if the gunshops will give me my money back for this stuff. I am skeptical about the 357 sig now. Starting to think i should have got a 40s&w.
please help me
trevor
You are absolutely right! They should not do that and should be returned to the manufacturers.

In itself this is an excellent cartridge but it has reloading, and even loading, limitations. First, it should only be used with bullets which have parallel sides within the neck. Typical 9mm bullets are already tappering before that and are very hard for the case to get a grip on. The next problem is that the normal reloading process compresses the neck of the case onto the bullet by forcing a shallowly tapering cylinder past the neck. Because of the obstruction of the shoulder a conventional system either cannot move far enough to produce enough compression or must have a less shallow angle which tends to buckle the case. Factories should have more sophisticated equipment that avoid this problem and clearly your two examples had not used it or were using the wrong bullets. Perhaps they were very old stock!

For reloading there is a very simple and relatively cheap solution. That is a collet crimp die. In this the part around the neck of the case stays in place as the tapered cylinder slide past it. In this way a low downward force can produce a high crimping force which holds the bullet firmly, crimps evenly over the length of the neck and does not risk buckling the case. Lee Precision, Inc make such a die and they call it the Lee factory crimp Die. For the 357 Sig the number on the box, which I assume is their part number, is 90076. You don't need to use adhesive with this die and your bullets will not set back.

By the way, if you do reload you should set your equipment so that the cartridges seat on the mouth and not on the shoulder regardless of what many experts say.

If you want more information I can find the source for this but in the mean time, from what CanyonMan says there are perfectly good factory rounds out there that will not give you this problem.

I would entirely support your choice of pistol and cartridge and support keeping it. It would be worth investing in a 9mm conversion barrel and two 9mm magazines so that most of your practice is cheaper and easier. practiciing with Winchester DPX all the time would be a little excessive! if you are reloading of course the cost difference is negligible between 9mm and 357 Sig.

Good luck.

English

PS I would not shoot any of those rounds. Write to the manufacturers and see what they say.

Last edited by English; 11-18-2011 at 09:47..
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:57   #9
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Originally Posted by ncvarmint View Post
i am thinking of shooting the box of remingtons, what is the most the bullets can setback, and still shoot safely. I was thinking as long as the are within 20thousanths.
trevor
The thing is you don't know how much additional setback you'll get when you rechamber the already setback round.

If the round is more than .005" setback I use my Lyman Inertia bullet puller to bump the bullets back out to the factory overall length (+.004" -.002") and shoot them. I've done this on FMJ and on JHP rounds like the Speer GD and HST.

Last edited by dkf; 11-18-2011 at 09:58..
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:14   #10
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Ive noticed a lot of the Federal rounds i have have done this and then they wont chamber because it bulges the case.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:36   #11
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Quote:
By the way, if you do reload you should set your equipment so that the cartridges seat on the mouth and not on the shoulder regardless of what many experts say.
Actually, most "experts" will tell you the round headspaces on the case mouth. Reality, it really does headspace like any other bottleneck round. Proof? Set your dies up so the shoulder is not pushed back far enough, it won't chamber. Push the shoulder back too far, it seats too deep & you get a misfire if your chamber is slightly long or the brass slightly short. Remember many guys were reloading the 357sig using reformed 40 cases that were slightly shorter.
Yes, bullet setback is a big issue w/ any high pressure round, more so w/ the 357sig because there isn't much case neck. You can set dies up to reload it & maintain good neck tension. The cheaper ammo will often have problems w/ setback. Using the wrong bullet shape will increase setbacks. A 0.005" isn't hurting anything, get to 0.05" & thins start getting ugly fast. http://le.atk.com/pdf/357_SIG_Setbac...s-Pressure.pdf
SO either start reloading, buy a higher quality practice round (Georgia ARms is quite good) or instead of selling it, just buy a 40 bbl. BTW, using your bullet pullet to increase OAL only makes thing worse. Once you break neck tension, it only gets worse.
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Last edited by fredj338; 11-18-2011 at 10:38..
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:02   #12
ncvarmint
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thanks guys,
i will call the ammo company's and see what they say. i already have a glock 19, so i may get a 40 barrel, and carry it some.
will update on what the company's say
trevor
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:51   #13
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i use georgia arms ammo for the range and HST or GD for carry and have never had a setback issue yet using a 32 barrel in my 23.
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Old 11-21-2011, 13:32   #14
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I shoot mostly Speer and Federal in my G32 and haven't noticed any setback. But I like to shoot the top round of my carry ammo every range session, so it's rare that any round gets chambered more than a couple of times at most.

I thought the early setback issues were due to the use of bullets made for 9mm loading. Wonder if Remington or Fiocci is still doing that?
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Old 11-21-2011, 15:43   #15
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I'll have to try and post a pic of the remington bullet I pulled. I also pulled a 125gr. HST bullet and it had a cannelure on the bullet that was right smack dab in the middle of the case neck on the .357sig round. Kinda looks like it might be a 9mm bullet. The bullet came out with one whack which is the first .357sig round I pulled that only took one hit to pull the bullet. At least it measured .355" unlike the WWB .357sig bullet I pulled that only measured .353".

Last edited by dkf; 11-21-2011 at 15:44..
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