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Old 06-25-2013, 18:30   #161
RWBlue
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I have never had a love for hard case in a semi-auto. The bullet profile is just like a FMJ and at handgun velocities the lead stays in the FMJ.

I might as well go FMJ or go to a heavy JHP which doesn't open.
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Old 06-25-2013, 19:49   #162
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
I have never had a love for hard case in a semi-auto. The bullet profile is just like a FMJ and at handgun velocities the lead stays in the FMJ.

I might as well go FMJ or go to a heavy JHP which doesn't open.

Well about the only thing negative that I've noticed about the hardcasts I've shot through my comped KKM is that they soot up the front something awful. The advantages I see though are that the hardcasts do have a better profile in terms of WFN type bullets, and their heavier weight increases penetration.

Now if I were to use a FMJ .45, I'd opt for the Hornady FMJ FN, which has the best profile of the FMJs. As for heavy JHPs, they can open up, just don't use any designed for 454 velocities or they won't.

A 240 XTP Mag would be a poor choice, but the 250gr XTP is a fine choice as it opens up nicely and penetrates deep moving along at near 1,200 fps muzzle velocity. The 250gr Gold Dot works very well too in the Super.
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Old 06-25-2013, 22:14   #163
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I guess that's what I'm trying to say here. An fmj doesn't have the same profile as a WFN hardcast bullet. The fmj has the profile of a LRN/RNL, however you want to call it.

If you check in with big bore handgun hunters they purt near universally tout the SWC Keith and/or WFN/WLN/LFN bullet profiles for hunting big game.

The 230 and 250 xtp's are what I would choose if I felt the need for a jhp bullet. The 250 Gold Dot is what I'd use for SD and smaller deer. For hogs, elk and black bear I'm choosing the WFNGC bullet.

IME the 265 WFNGC from Beartooth is surprisingly accurate. I noticed this when chronographing loads. I wasn't even shooting for group size and noticed the bullets cutting a ragged hole at 15 yards.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:10   #164
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I got my Beartooth 300gr LFNGC in the mail yesterday after a good long wait. It looks like a profile that's going to work well. Hoping to get some loaded up and chronographed before much longer.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:35   #165
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I got my Beartooth 300gr LFNGC in the mail yesterday after a good long wait. It looks like a profile that's going to work well. Hoping to get some loaded up and chronographed before much longer.

Please keep us posted on your load development and testing.

Thanks,

James
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:56   #166
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Please keep us posted on your load development and testing.

Thanks,

James
Yes please do
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Old 08-09-2013, 14:22   #167
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Yeah I sure will, since I know some of what I come up with can also help out those who load for the Rowland. Here are just a few pics I snapped when figuring out what will fit in the KKM barrel. I tried 1.280" and it fits, so I'm going to stick with that just so I can get a little extra room for powder. Plus I loaded some at that OAL and they do fit in the G21 magazine.

I don't really have any must reach velocity goals, but I'd like to get close to 1,100 fps. Whether that ever happens I have no idea, but considering I got almost 1,150 from a 275gr, I think 1,100 is feasible. The meplat (flat nose) isn't quite as large as the 275gr Hunters Supply, but it's very close.

Here's the bullet beside one loaded to 1.280" in .45 Super brass:

The 21 Club

Here is the BT 300gr LFNGC compared to the BT 200gr WFNGC. I love the 200gr WFGNC for the 10mm/warm .40's, but it looks small in comparison:

The 21 Club
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Old 08-09-2013, 22:46   #168
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Yeah I sure will, since I know some of what I come up with can also help out those who load for the Rowland. Here are just a few pics I snapped when figuring out what will fit in the KKM barrel. I tried 1.280" and it fits, so I'm going to stick with that just so I can get a little extra room for powder. Plus I loaded some at that OAL and they do fit in the G21 magazine.

I don't really have any must reach velocity goals, but I'd like to get close to 1,100 fps. Whether that ever happens I have no idea, but considering I got almost 1,150 from a 275gr, I think 1,100 is feasible. The meplat (flat nose) isn't quite as large as the 275gr Hunters Supply, but it's very close.

Here's the bullet beside one loaded to 1.280" in .45 Super brass:

The 21 Club

Here is the BT 300gr LFNGC compared to the BT 200gr WFNGC. I love the 200gr WFGNC for the 10mm/warm .40's, but it looks small in comparison:

The 21 Club
now you went and done it, I am going to have to try some
300gr lee gc in my 460 rowland
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:27   #169
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Those are some sexy looking bullets........I really need to get out more!!!

Did you go with the .451 or .452 diameter?

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Old 08-10-2013, 07:00   #170
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.452" Hondo and yes they are fine looking boolits, almost pains me to shoot some of them...almost!
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Old 08-10-2013, 14:37   #171
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Thanks. I will have to get some.
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Old 08-10-2013, 16:10   #172
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I just couldn't wait. Weather hasn't been too great, but I did get a short break to get out there and run a few of the 300gr loads and a few 275gr loads as well.

Here's the data I got today:

275gr Hunters Supply hardcast, 9.8gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,183 fps (17 fps ES!) 855 ft-lbs!!

300gr LFNGC, 9.8gr VV 3N38 @ 1.280": 1,056 fps (6 fps ES!)

300gr LFNGC, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.280": 1,071 fps (13 fps ES!)

300gr LFNGC, 9.0gr 800x @ 1.280": 1,077 fps (6 fps ES!)

300gr LFNGC, 9.3gr 800x @ 1.270": 1,125 fps (8 fps ES!) 843 ft-lbs!!

Glock 21 Gen4 w/KKM 4 port barrel (5") was used along with a 24lb RSA. New Starline brass and CCI LP primers.

There ya have it. I'm not done with it by no means, but this is today's data. 3N38 was purely off the top of my head as I had no idea where to start with it. I feel it has more potential in the Super, but I needed a base line of where to start and I've got it.

I wasn't really expecting much to be honest, but I was surprised at some of the numbers I got. 800x really shined today, which is kind of funny since I've not messed with but on two prior occasions in the Super and didn't expect what I got out of it today.

I didn't really think I'd see 1,100 fps, but I did and I have to say I'm happy that I actually surpassed that with 1,125 fps today. Brass looked good, a tad bit of extractor rash on the case rim, but not much. No bulging in the excellent KKM barrel.

I don't want to leave out mentioning the 275gr load. I another load idea in mind for it, but getting near 1,200 fps with a 275 bullet is almost unreal, really.

What about recoil? Yeah there is recoil no doubt. Going from shooting some 230gr @ 870 fps to a 275/300gr load above is noticeable. When you shoot the heavier bullets, the recoil gets noticeably more pushy. No function issues however!

800x got my attention today, and now I already have some 255gr Beartooth WFNPB hardcasts loaded up ready to go as well as some 250gr XTPs, just to see what 800x has to say about these. If the weather permits I hope to run some tomorrow, Lord willing.
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Old 08-10-2013, 17:08   #173
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you are my HERO, thanks for the info.

Many moons ago I was shooting some RCBS 325gr gc .458 bullets
sized down to .452 out of a 454 with a 45ACP cylinder in it.

Was using wc-820/ h-108/ aa#9 powder, could not get enough
powder in it to get a clean burn, was 1125fps with a 7.5'' barrel.
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Old 08-11-2013, 18:00   #174
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I would like to add a few more, got a chance to play with 800x and some 250/255gr bullets today. So I brought out the Chrony, put it on the tripod, leveled it all up and ran some test loads to make sure it's reading correctly. I'm pleased...

Gen4 G21 w/KKM 4 port compensated barrel and 24lb RSA. New Starline .45 Super brass and CCI LP primers.

250gr Hornady XTP, 10.8gr 800X @ 1.190": 1,256 fps (6 fps ES!) 876 ft-lbs!

255gr Beartooth WFNPB, 10.8gr 800x @ 1.170": 1,261 fps (5 fps ES!) 900 ft-lbs!

I never did mess with 800x much prior and now I wish I had! Over the past few days it's been very consistent and has turned the .45 Super into quite the powerhouse. The beautiful thing is, not only are the energy numbers high, but the bullets are heavy.

This is .44 Magnum class performance. I'm not saying it's the equal of it because it isn't, but what I'm saying is, Remington, Federal and Winchester all offer .44 Magnum 240-250gr loads that are slower than my 250gr loads and with less energy than all 3 of my heavy .45 Supers (250-255gr/275gr/300gr). Hornady offers a 300gr .44 that lists 1150 fps (as does Federal), and I'm getting 1125 fps with a 300gr .452" from my .45 Super. Not better than the .44, but in the same general class for sure.

Brass looked good and the KKM comped barrel helped I'm sure, and even still recoil was there. I'm thinking if I could own one Glock, what would it be? My G21 would be it, it does everything very well, from target .45's, the ability to shoot all the good JHP defense bullets, and then I can take it out and let it roar with the .45 Super.
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Old 08-11-2013, 22:43   #175
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So now I will need some 800x or are you going to try AA#9 and
maybe go faster.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:26   #176
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So now I will need some 800x or are you going to try AA#9 and
maybe go faster.
Well I have some AA9 but to be honest, I've never warmed up to it. Well, not yet at least.

It may do a great job in the .45 Super, but I think my issue with it (so far) is that it takes a lot of powder and so far in the 10mm and .40 I've not got very good numbers at all using it, even with over book max charges. I know it's a slow burning powder, but it takes a lot of it, and the performance I've seen so far has disappointed me a little.

However, I will have to look into at least giving it a try in the Super, it may change my mind about the powder.
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Old 08-12-2013, 13:45   #177
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What is the lightest weight bullet that you would load, in 45 Super? I read, quite often, that the 10mm 135gr is a preferred weight, but I don't see people talk about a light weight 45 round.

Actually what got me curious is 40 Super loads with a 135gr. Couldn't 45 Super be loaded in a similar manner? I have read about a 45 caliber 165gr bullet, but what would be the lightest load in .45?
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Old 08-12-2013, 18:18   #178
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What is the lightest weight bullet that you would load, in 45 Super? I read, quite often, that the 10mm 135gr is a preferred weight, but I don't see people talk about a light weight 45 round.

Actually what got me curious is 40 Super loads with a 135gr. Couldn't 45 Super be loaded in a similar manner? I have read about a 45 caliber 165gr bullet, but what would be the lightest load in .45?
I would be a little bit wary of either a 165gr or a 185gr in a 45 Super load. It would be alright if the bullets used were designed to function at those velocities. I just don't know if anything that light in 45 cal is designed for those speeds.
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Old 08-12-2013, 18:21   #179
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I'm pretty sure a 165gr is the lightest JHP I've ever seen in a .45. I've seen 150-155gr hardcasts in .45 cal, but I think 165 is about it in JHP and honestly I don't know if they're available to reloaders.

That pretty much leaves us with the 185gr JHP. Rowland claims 1500 fps for 185gr, and I know it's been beat in the ground somewhat, but to me that's too fast. The 185gr .451" has slightly better sectional density than the 135gr .400" (.130 vs .121), but both lack in that dept.

Concerning the 135gr .400", I know that even at 1,300 fps (typical .40 S&W velocity), the bullet is already fragmenting somewhat. When you you jump up from 500 ft-lbs to 900 ft-lbs, nearly doubling the energy, the bullet is going to nearly explode on contact, resulting in poor penetration although it would be nicely explosive on vermin.

Same story with the 185gr, you go from 500+ ft-lbs to almost 1000 ft-lbs. If there was a bullet that would take those velocities and would be able to make use of those 900+ ft-lbs that would be great, but there isn't.

So to answer your question, yeah you can rock out a 185gr from a Super/Rowland at high speed, but I find it pointless. If it's just for fun, or small critter control fine. I would keep pretty much all .45 ACP designed JHP's to at or below 1,200 fps, just because that even at that speed, they're on the brink of too fast.

I guess that's why I'm liking the heavier .45 Super bullets. The 250gr XTP I loaded to over 1,250 fps has nearly 900 ft-lbs of energy and the good thing is, the bullet can handle it, as it's rated for up to 1,500 fps per Hornady. If one could get ahold of some 165gr .45 JHP's it would be fun at least to see what speeds could be achieved if nothing else
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Old 08-12-2013, 18:31   #180
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Good post, SD!

I am inclined to agree, a 45 Super load work-up with 165gr pills would be interesting. I have a hunch though there would be some serious bullet integrity issues.
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