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Old 10-27-2012, 12:26   #121
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Try the Hunters Supply 275gr WFN. It is short and will fit in LW barrels. I've run it at 1100 fps. Works great.
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Old 10-27-2012, 13:56   #122
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Thanks, yes I had looked at that bullet as well and have heard good things about it.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:10   #123
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Some more data I got yesterday, all velocities are averages and shot from my Gen4 G21 w/KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Temp was around 50 degrees. Brass is new Starline and I use CCI LP primers.

I am also using a captured 22lb RSA, I use the Glockworx adapter ring for Gen4's Glocks. It works like a charm on all my Gen4 Glocks in case you want to use gen3 recoil spring assemblies in your Gen4.

230gr FMJ, 9.8r Power Pistol @ 1.250": 1174 fps

250gr Gold Dot, 8gr Power Pistol @ 1.215": 1031 fps (8 fps extreme spread!!)

255gr Beartooth WFN (250gr), 8.8gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1125 fps


Notes: Previously the 230gr XTP @ 1.260 averaged 1177 fps, and my Precision Delta 230gr FMJ bullets are longer than the 230gr XTP. Next round will be the 230gr XTP loaded to 1.240-1.250 w/10gr Power Pistol.

All brass looked good. The 250gr Gold Dot load was a soft shooter for sure and I feel going 8.2gr PP is safe. A quick note, just like the 230gr Gold Dot, I don't feel the 250gr Gold Dot is meant for real high velocities.

It's been my experience that the longer pedal (usually heavier weight) Gold Dots don't hold up as well as the shorter pedal ones. An example, a 165gr Gold Dot from my .40 cal Gen4 G35 w/KKM 6" G24 barrel averages 1400 fps with VV 3N38, but held together very well and very uniformly in water whereas the 230gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super driven to around 1200 fps completely came apart. The 250gr Gold Dot is the same, I've driven it faster than it's meant to out of a warm .45 Colt and it too came apart.

I feel both bullets (230gr and 250gr Gold Dot) should be kept under 1100 fps. So after chronographing the 250gr Gold Dots, I loaded up one more with 8.2gr Power Pistol @ 1.210" and shot it into some jugs. Penetrated 4 jugs and did a real number on the first two and split the bottom of the third. I know, I know, water jug "testing" isn't really testing, but IMHO if it holds together in water, it will likely hold together in critters. If it penetrates deep in water, you can rest assured it's a deep penetrator.

I'm guessing the impact velocity to be around 1050 fps, here's a pic:

The 21 Club

Soft shooting, deep penetration, expanded to an avg of almost .80 cal and and 8 fps extreme spread. Looks like my quest for the 250gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super is complete. Oh, the shredded bullet in the background is a 230gr Gold Dot driven to around 1200 fps.

The Beartooth 255gr WFN is a nice bullet, although I had to seat it deeper than I really wanted, it's not so bad. The reason is that it's a very short bullet for it's weight, shorter than my 230gr bullets. 1.175" was the longest OAL it would chamber in my barrel. However, since it's so short, the base of the bullet isn't protruding any deeper into the case than any other bullet despite it's shorter OAL. Next up, I'm trying 9gr Power Pistol seated to 1.170".
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:22   #124
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How does the KKM barrel with comp handle the recoil with the Super? Does it make a pretty good difference?
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:03   #125
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NoJoy, yes it does help out and certainly dampens the recoil. Not only does it help the recoil, but it seems to be a little easier on the brass. I think it along with the 22lb recoil spring slows the slide down enough compared to the previous stock length (4.6") KKM bbl, and as such, the brass doesn't have nearly the extractor bite on it as it used to.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:20   #126
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Good to know thx! Can I get away with shooting the Super out of a Stock Gen 4 21 (with stock duel recoil spring) by just changing out the stock barrel for the KKM barrel with comp?
Sorry if you have already answered a simuliar question.
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:07   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reflex264 View Post
what is you overall length with the 265? Reflex264
1.185 - 1.186"
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:08   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsloafer View Post
Dougader,

Appreciate your load data and pictures of the WFNGC bullet... I am going to try that bullet out.

The Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC hardcast slug ...What dia. did you get... .451?

Thanks,

Jerry
Hey Jerry, Mine is .451"
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:38   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJoy View Post
Good to know thx! Can I get away with shooting the Super out of a Stock Gen 4 21 (with stock duel recoil spring) by just changing out the stock barrel for the KKM barrel with comp?
Sorry if you have already answered a simuliar question.
Yeap that will work NoJoy.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:53   #130
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Ok thx appreciate it!
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Old 02-07-2013, 13:12   #131
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More fresh .45 Super data from Gen4 G21 w/4 port KKM barrel (barrel itself w/threading is 5" long)

New Starline brass and CCI LP:

230gr FMJ, 9.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,185 fps (15 fps ES!!) That's 717 ft-lbs!

230gr FMJ, 9.8gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,229 fps (37 fps ES) That's 771 ft-lbs!

"255gr" Beartooth WFN, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1,179 fps (13 fps ES!) That's 772 ft-lbs (it really weighs in at 250gr, not 255gr)

"280gr" Beartooth WFNGC, 8.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 1,065 fps (24 fps ES) That's 693 ft-lbs (it's a 275gr, not 280gr)

Notes: brass looked good on all loads. I had no previous data on the 280gr WFNGC, so I used 8.0gr. I feel 8.2gr would have been safe, even possibly 8.4/8.5gr. That should get me the 1100 fps I'm after, but I'm not disappointed since 1,065 fps is pretty close and it's still gonna kill quick and penetrate well.
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Old 02-09-2013, 17:05   #132
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I'm going to load up some 200gr next with Longshot. I'm going to keep them a little below starting charges for the 460 Rowland, like above with the 230gr as the starting charge for the 460 Rowland is 10.0gr. Have I ever mentioned that Hodgdon .45 Super data is a joke?
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Old 02-10-2013, 15:01   #133
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.45 Super w/200gr TMJ @ 1.225" (New Starline brass and CCI LP primers) average from 5" KKM was 1,310 fps. Not quite what I got using Power Pistol, but overall not bad at all.
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Old 03-09-2013, 15:33   #134
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Too nice of a day to pass up! I had a few ideas in my head and wanted to see the results. Temperature between 55-60 degress outside and the gun is my normal, Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel (5") with 22lb RSA (gen3). CCI LP primers and new Starline brass was used.

Working with Power Pistol and Longshot today:

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,104 fps (20 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,128 fps (38 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,124 fps (12 fps ES!)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,164 fps (22 fps ES)

I like that the 250gr XTP has a somewhat short OAL, quite a bit shorter than my other 250gr HP, the Speer Gold Dot aka "Deep Curl". I was wanting over 1,100 fps and I got it, but was still curious as to how much, if any, it would expand at that velocity. I had to seat the bullet to 1.190" in order for it to chamber in the KKM, as 1.200" was just a hair too long, literally.

I think where the .45 Super/460 Rowland shine is not with .45 ACP designed bullets, although they can be pushed a little bit and still be okay. I think it's with the heavier 250gr+ bullets. Those bullets are usually designed tougher than ACP style bullets yet out of the Super/Rowland you don't have to worry about pushing them too fast because the bullets will take it. I believe the XTP is rated up to 1500-1600 fps, which you'll never see in a Super/Rowland.

Although unscientific, I loaded one up with Longshot and shot it into lined up water jugs and it penetrated to the 5th jug, shedding a little weight and coming in at 242.3gr, impact velocity over 1150 fps. Interestingly, with the same sectional density, a 200gr .400" XTP from a 6" .40 S&W will do over 1200 fps and also penetrate to the 5th jug. Both would be great choices on game. By comparison, a .451" 200gr XTP (.45 ACP designed) will do over 1300 fps from the Super, but only penetrates 3 jugs, although it did expand bigger, which is to be expected. Picture of the 250gr XTP:

The 21 Club


I would have to say that I'm satisfied with a 250gr XTP leaving at over 1,150 fps, that's near 750 ft-lbs. To put that in perspective, that's as fast (or faster) than a .45 ACP 185gr +P and weights 65gr heavier, or the same speed as the 85gr lighter 165gr .40 S&W factory load.
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:27   #135
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I've got some more .45 Super I'm going to work up, but in the meantime I found a nice little load for the .45 ACP. Shot from a stock Glock 30 Gen4 (3.78" barrel):

250gr Missouri RNFP "PinBuster" hardcast, 7.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 910 fps avg, 3 fps extreme spread!

1.180 was the longest OAL that would chamber in the Glock barrel, I can load them a little longer out of the G21 KKM barrel but what I was looking for I found. And that is a load that packs a good punch, easily capable of dealing with most critters you would come into contact with in the woods, in the lower 48 at least! I feel this is a good solid load in a good carry-able package (G30).

Although I haven't tried them in the Glock barrel yet, the Beartooth 255gr WFN hardcast would be an even better option because 1) it's shorter than the Missouri RNFP and 2) has a larger meplat (flat nose) on it which is better if you want even more damage. As long as it cycled it would be a great choice too for those that only load for the .45 ACP.
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Old 04-26-2013, 18:48   #136
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Got some beautiful Hunters Supply 275gr FN hardcasts in the mail yesterday!

The 21 Club

Very good profile, I can even load them to 1.260" too so that's fantastic. I loaded some up today with them, mainly just to get a base. My goal is 1,100 fps from the 5" KKM, and I'm essentially there, just shy but that's easily fixed. Here's what I have for now:

275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.260": 1,078 fps (29 fps ES) That's a TKO rating of 19.1!

275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (16 fps ES!)

275gr Hunters Supply, 9.2gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (26 fps ES)

275gr Hunters Supply, 10.0gr Blue Dot @ 1.260": 1,009 fps (22 fps ES!)

I sure didn't expect Power Pistol, Longshot and 800x to give me almost identical results. What I'm going to do next is drop the oal to around 1.250" and with both Longshot and Power Pistol work some a 8.4gr, 8.6gr and even try 8.8gr.

Blue Dot did well, just not as well...likely needs more powder! However since there's really not any data out there most of this was just to get an idea of where to go next.

A few little things extra. For a good stout .45 ACP load, a week or two ago I loaded up 7.0gr Power Pistol under a Missouri 250gr RNFP "PinBuster" at 1.180". These are loaded at this OAL only because that's the longest that would chamber in the Glock 30 Gen4. This same load averaged 910 fps from the 3.78" Glock 30 and out of the 5" KKM today, it averaged 975 fps. That's a pretty stout .45 ACP, and honestly, I'm real impressed with this load. I suspect around 950 fps from the Glock 21. Very useful and very potent for sure, and it's caused me to have have a whole new respect for this ole warhorse of a cartridge, just fantastic.

One more. Probably the epitome of useless, but in case you have some 395gr Cast Performance WLNGC bullets laying around and a Ruger to shoot them in, from my 5.5" Bisley:

395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 19.0gr H110 @ 1.720": 1,007 fps (22 fps ES!)

395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 16.0gr Lil'Gun @ 1.720": 968 fps (18 fps ES!)

Not real fast, but it's almost 1oz of lead too. I'm sure I could drive it faster but I don't really see a point to it. Just another load that there is almost zero data for. I'm sure I with a 7.5" barrel one could get close to 1,100 fps. But my preferred heavy load for my 5.5" Bisley is:

330gr Beartooth WFNPB, 22gr Lil'Gun @ 1.625": 1,287 fps (29 fps ES)

BUT! This is a .45 Super thread and I'll have more before long.
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:56   #137
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I ran a few more this afternoon, very pleased with them. Will post up soon!
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:06   #138
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Okay here's the data from the other day. From Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Using new Starline brass and CCI LP primers.

I've used Longshot before with good results, but wanted to try more of it in the Super. Anyways, here's what I got.

250gr Speer Gold Dot, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.215": 1,122 fps (35 fps ES) That's 699 ft-lbs !

275gr Hunters Supply Hardcast, 8.8gr Longshot @ 1.250":1,137 fps (15 fps ES!) That's 790 ft-lbs! (20.1 TKO rating)

I've got faster with the 250gr XTP but it's shorter than the 250 Gold Dot, which is a rather long bullet. The 1.215" OAL is the longest that will chamber in the G21 KKM barrel, the profile of the 250gr Gold Dot is more blunt, as it's a revolver bullet first and foremost.

However, what I got above is plenty fast, they will come apart in a hurry if driven too fast. To add, I loaded up a 200gr Gold Dot over 10.2gr Power Pistol and while I didn't chronograph it, I suspect to be hovering around 1200 fps from the 5" KKM since 10.5gr got me 1210 from the 4.6" KKM I used to have.

Bullet experienced some failure though since it shed several pedals which tells me ~1200 fps is a touch fast but not overly so, and while I know water jug testing isn't the be all end all of bullet testing, it's a media that's somewhat hard on bullets. So while that doesn't mean it will for sure come apart in flesh and bone, if it stays together in water there's a good chance it will in flesh.

I would say 1100 fps is plenty for the 250gr Gold Dot (and 230gr Gold Dot too). I'm pretty sure there aren't very many animals walking around that a 275gr hardcast at almost 1150 won't sail completely through. My goal was 1100 fps with the 275gr, and I'm beyond that so I probably won't be doing much else to that load, it's more than enough anyways. It's 25gr shy of 300gr and packs almost 800 ft-lbs along with it. Should work quite well
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:18   #139
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SD,
Nice to see you having fun with hotrodding the .45
Your workups are pretty much identical to the stuff I did a couple years ago with a gen 3 G21 with a stock length LW barrel. I really like Power Pistol, Longshot, and 800x too.
That 275 HS is a real thumper and I found it to be an awesome elk bullet at 1100fps.

The reason I posted was just to give a heads up about Blue Dot: Be Careful!
Blue Dot has a nasty tendency to pressure spike and can do so with temperature changes. I would not push Blue Dot as far as I would with the aforementioned powders.

Have fun and keep posting your results so we can make the 10mm crowd jealous
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:42   #140
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Cycle,

That's for the heads up, Blue Dot isn't a powder I've really messed with too much even though I have a couple of pounds of it laying around. Some swear by it, but I've been tickled with Power Pistol and Longshot and will likely stick to those I do have some 3N38 too, which could be interesting but I would have to start the data since there is no data for 3N38 in the .45 Super.

I may try some more 275gr data using a few different powders, but I've met my velocity goal, well exceeded it really. I haven't looked too hard for it, but if I can find a 300gr hardcast with a good profile I might work up some with those, just for kicks you know. Now that you mention it, 10mm guys are strangely silent when the .45 Super (or 460 Rowland) is brought up!
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