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Old 11-13-2012, 01:20   #126
NoJoy
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Good to know thx! Can I get away with shooting the Super out of a Stock Gen 4 21 (with stock duel recoil spring) by just changing out the stock barrel for the KKM barrel with comp?
Sorry if you have already answered a simuliar question.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:07   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reflex264 View Post
what is you overall length with the 265? Reflex264
1.185 - 1.186"
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:08   #128
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Originally Posted by woodsloafer View Post
Dougader,

Appreciate your load data and pictures of the WFNGC bullet... I am going to try that bullet out.

The Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC hardcast slug ...What dia. did you get... .451?

Thanks,

Jerry
Hey Jerry, Mine is .451"
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:38   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJoy View Post
Good to know thx! Can I get away with shooting the Super out of a Stock Gen 4 21 (with stock duel recoil spring) by just changing out the stock barrel for the KKM barrel with comp?
Sorry if you have already answered a simuliar question.
Yeap that will work NoJoy.
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Old 11-20-2012, 00:53   #130
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Ok thx appreciate it!
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:12   #131
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More fresh .45 Super data from Gen4 G21 w/4 port KKM barrel (barrel itself w/threading is 5" long)

New Starline brass and CCI LP:

230gr FMJ, 9.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,185 fps (15 fps ES!!) That's 717 ft-lbs!

230gr FMJ, 9.8gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,229 fps (37 fps ES) That's 771 ft-lbs!

"255gr" Beartooth WFN, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1,179 fps (13 fps ES!) That's 772 ft-lbs (it really weighs in at 250gr, not 255gr)

"280gr" Beartooth WFNGC, 8.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 1,065 fps (24 fps ES) That's 693 ft-lbs (it's a 275gr, not 280gr)

Notes: brass looked good on all loads. I had no previous data on the 280gr WFNGC, so I used 8.0gr. I feel 8.2gr would have been safe, even possibly 8.4/8.5gr. That should get me the 1100 fps I'm after, but I'm not disappointed since 1,065 fps is pretty close and it's still gonna kill quick and penetrate well.
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Old 02-09-2013, 16:05   #132
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I'm going to load up some 200gr next with Longshot. I'm going to keep them a little below starting charges for the 460 Rowland, like above with the 230gr as the starting charge for the 460 Rowland is 10.0gr. Have I ever mentioned that Hodgdon .45 Super data is a joke?
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:01   #133
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.45 Super w/200gr TMJ @ 1.225" (New Starline brass and CCI LP primers) average from 5" KKM was 1,310 fps. Not quite what I got using Power Pistol, but overall not bad at all.
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Old 03-09-2013, 14:33   #134
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Too nice of a day to pass up! I had a few ideas in my head and wanted to see the results. Temperature between 55-60 degress outside and the gun is my normal, Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel (5") with 22lb RSA (gen3). CCI LP primers and new Starline brass was used.

Working with Power Pistol and Longshot today:

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,104 fps (20 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,128 fps (38 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,124 fps (12 fps ES!)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,164 fps (22 fps ES)

I like that the 250gr XTP has a somewhat short OAL, quite a bit shorter than my other 250gr HP, the Speer Gold Dot aka "Deep Curl". I was wanting over 1,100 fps and I got it, but was still curious as to how much, if any, it would expand at that velocity. I had to seat the bullet to 1.190" in order for it to chamber in the KKM, as 1.200" was just a hair too long, literally.

I think where the .45 Super/460 Rowland shine is not with .45 ACP designed bullets, although they can be pushed a little bit and still be okay. I think it's with the heavier 250gr+ bullets. Those bullets are usually designed tougher than ACP style bullets yet out of the Super/Rowland you don't have to worry about pushing them too fast because the bullets will take it. I believe the XTP is rated up to 1500-1600 fps, which you'll never see in a Super/Rowland.

Although unscientific, I loaded one up with Longshot and shot it into lined up water jugs and it penetrated to the 5th jug, shedding a little weight and coming in at 242.3gr, impact velocity over 1150 fps. Interestingly, with the same sectional density, a 200gr .400" XTP from a 6" .40 S&W will do over 1200 fps and also penetrate to the 5th jug. Both would be great choices on game. By comparison, a .451" 200gr XTP (.45 ACP designed) will do over 1300 fps from the Super, but only penetrates 3 jugs, although it did expand bigger, which is to be expected. Picture of the 250gr XTP:

The 21 Club


I would have to say that I'm satisfied with a 250gr XTP leaving at over 1,150 fps, that's near 750 ft-lbs. To put that in perspective, that's as fast (or faster) than a .45 ACP 185gr +P and weights 65gr heavier, or the same speed as the 85gr lighter 165gr .40 S&W factory load.
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:27   #135
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I've got some more .45 Super I'm going to work up, but in the meantime I found a nice little load for the .45 ACP. Shot from a stock Glock 30 Gen4 (3.78" barrel):

250gr Missouri RNFP "PinBuster" hardcast, 7.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 910 fps avg, 3 fps extreme spread!

1.180 was the longest OAL that would chamber in the Glock barrel, I can load them a little longer out of the G21 KKM barrel but what I was looking for I found. And that is a load that packs a good punch, easily capable of dealing with most critters you would come into contact with in the woods, in the lower 48 at least! I feel this is a good solid load in a good carry-able package (G30).

Although I haven't tried them in the Glock barrel yet, the Beartooth 255gr WFN hardcast would be an even better option because 1) it's shorter than the Missouri RNFP and 2) has a larger meplat (flat nose) on it which is better if you want even more damage. As long as it cycled it would be a great choice too for those that only load for the .45 ACP.
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Old 04-26-2013, 18:48   #136
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Got some beautiful Hunters Supply 275gr FN hardcasts in the mail yesterday!

The 21 Club

Very good profile, I can even load them to 1.260" too so that's fantastic. I loaded some up today with them, mainly just to get a base. My goal is 1,100 fps from the 5" KKM, and I'm essentially there, just shy but that's easily fixed. Here's what I have for now:

275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.260": 1,078 fps (29 fps ES) That's a TKO rating of 19.1!

275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (16 fps ES!)

275gr Hunters Supply, 9.2gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (26 fps ES)

275gr Hunters Supply, 10.0gr Blue Dot @ 1.260": 1,009 fps (22 fps ES!)

I sure didn't expect Power Pistol, Longshot and 800x to give me almost identical results. What I'm going to do next is drop the oal to around 1.250" and with both Longshot and Power Pistol work some a 8.4gr, 8.6gr and even try 8.8gr.

Blue Dot did well, just not as well...likely needs more powder! However since there's really not any data out there most of this was just to get an idea of where to go next.

A few little things extra. For a good stout .45 ACP load, a week or two ago I loaded up 7.0gr Power Pistol under a Missouri 250gr RNFP "PinBuster" at 1.180". These are loaded at this OAL only because that's the longest that would chamber in the Glock 30 Gen4. This same load averaged 910 fps from the 3.78" Glock 30 and out of the 5" KKM today, it averaged 975 fps. That's a pretty stout .45 ACP, and honestly, I'm real impressed with this load. I suspect around 950 fps from the Glock 21. Very useful and very potent for sure, and it's caused me to have have a whole new respect for this ole warhorse of a cartridge, just fantastic.

One more. Probably the epitome of useless, but in case you have some 395gr Cast Performance WLNGC bullets laying around and a Ruger to shoot them in, from my 5.5" Bisley:

395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 19.0gr H110 @ 1.720": 1,007 fps (22 fps ES!)

395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 16.0gr Lil'Gun @ 1.720": 968 fps (18 fps ES!)

Not real fast, but it's almost 1oz of lead too. I'm sure I could drive it faster but I don't really see a point to it. Just another load that there is almost zero data for. I'm sure I with a 7.5" barrel one could get close to 1,100 fps. But my preferred heavy load for my 5.5" Bisley is:

330gr Beartooth WFNPB, 22gr Lil'Gun @ 1.625": 1,287 fps (29 fps ES)

BUT! This is a .45 Super thread and I'll have more before long.
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:56   #137
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I ran a few more this afternoon, very pleased with them. Will post up soon!
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:06   #138
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Okay here's the data from the other day. From Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Using new Starline brass and CCI LP primers.

I've used Longshot before with good results, but wanted to try more of it in the Super. Anyways, here's what I got.

250gr Speer Gold Dot, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.215": 1,122 fps (35 fps ES) That's 699 ft-lbs !

275gr Hunters Supply Hardcast, 8.8gr Longshot @ 1.250":1,137 fps (15 fps ES!) That's 790 ft-lbs! (20.1 TKO rating)

I've got faster with the 250gr XTP but it's shorter than the 250 Gold Dot, which is a rather long bullet. The 1.215" OAL is the longest that will chamber in the G21 KKM barrel, the profile of the 250gr Gold Dot is more blunt, as it's a revolver bullet first and foremost.

However, what I got above is plenty fast, they will come apart in a hurry if driven too fast. To add, I loaded up a 200gr Gold Dot over 10.2gr Power Pistol and while I didn't chronograph it, I suspect to be hovering around 1200 fps from the 5" KKM since 10.5gr got me 1210 from the 4.6" KKM I used to have.

Bullet experienced some failure though since it shed several pedals which tells me ~1200 fps is a touch fast but not overly so, and while I know water jug testing isn't the be all end all of bullet testing, it's a media that's somewhat hard on bullets. So while that doesn't mean it will for sure come apart in flesh and bone, if it stays together in water there's a good chance it will in flesh.

I would say 1100 fps is plenty for the 250gr Gold Dot (and 230gr Gold Dot too). I'm pretty sure there aren't very many animals walking around that a 275gr hardcast at almost 1150 won't sail completely through. My goal was 1100 fps with the 275gr, and I'm beyond that so I probably won't be doing much else to that load, it's more than enough anyways. It's 25gr shy of 300gr and packs almost 800 ft-lbs along with it. Should work quite well
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:18   #139
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SD,
Nice to see you having fun with hotrodding the .45
Your workups are pretty much identical to the stuff I did a couple years ago with a gen 3 G21 with a stock length LW barrel. I really like Power Pistol, Longshot, and 800x too.
That 275 HS is a real thumper and I found it to be an awesome elk bullet at 1100fps.

The reason I posted was just to give a heads up about Blue Dot: Be Careful!
Blue Dot has a nasty tendency to pressure spike and can do so with temperature changes. I would not push Blue Dot as far as I would with the aforementioned powders.

Have fun and keep posting your results so we can make the 10mm crowd jealous
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:42   #140
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Cycle,

That's for the heads up, Blue Dot isn't a powder I've really messed with too much even though I have a couple of pounds of it laying around. Some swear by it, but I've been tickled with Power Pistol and Longshot and will likely stick to those I do have some 3N38 too, which could be interesting but I would have to start the data since there is no data for 3N38 in the .45 Super.

I may try some more 275gr data using a few different powders, but I've met my velocity goal, well exceeded it really. I haven't looked too hard for it, but if I can find a 300gr hardcast with a good profile I might work up some with those, just for kicks you know. Now that you mention it, 10mm guys are strangely silent when the .45 Super (or 460 Rowland) is brought up!
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Old 05-19-2013, 22:38   #141
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SDGlock23

Do you think these would be worty a try

http://leeprecision.com/6-cavity-452-255-rf.html

I have some cast and waiting to get my 460 barrel in the mail.
If you think they would be any good I will send you some, they are
250gr.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:56   #142
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Happie,

That looks like a good one to me, plus it says it will work in .45 Auto which makes me think the profile should work. The 250gr RNFP Missouri's look very similar to that, and they will cycle for sure. I'm not sure what OAL that Lee mould would work with in the Super, but the longer case of the 460 Rowland is especially beneficial for more blunt nosed bullets since the OAL of the 460 is the same of the .45 Super, which of course depends on bullet.

I've got some real blunt Beartooth bullets that I've had to seat kind of deep in the Super that would really benefit from the longer Rowland case since being blunt doesn't effect it as much. One day I may just break down and get a 460 barrel, but for now I'll have to be one of the few 45 Super guys
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:22   #143
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Just so people are clear, the only function of the longer case in the Rowland is to prevent higher pressure loads chambering in .45 acp guns not rated for it. The COL between .45acp, Super, and Rowland are all the same, and thus, the interior powder volume is the same (barring slight differences from variations in brass thickness).
I have loaded Standard Winchester .45acp brass to Rowland level loads (In a strong gun with a barrel with complete chamber support and strong recoil springs)

One does not need a Roland case/barrel to make Rowland level loads. One does need good brass (Winchester, or Starline) and a strong barrel with excellent 6 o'clock chamber support and of course adequate recoil management system i.e. strong recoil springs and a compensator.
Buying a complete Rowland "kit" is a great way to get a "tested and approved" system for shooting .451 bullets really fast at high pressures. It is not the only way to do it.
The main benefit of only shooting High pressure rounds in a Rowland case is that they won't fit in any old .45.
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Old 05-21-2013, 15:11   #144
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I've thought of this as well, since the cartridge OAL is the same, there really wouldn't be any real difference between the .45 Super and Rowland as long as the same OAL is used. I read an article about the 460 Rowland and Starline said 460 Rowland brass is made just like 45 Super brass, just longer.

I have read the article of using ACP cases to get 460 Rowland level performance out of a Ruger Blackhawk convertible, but I've not tried it using ACP brass in the Glock, since I do have a good bit of .45 Super brass. Starline does claim Super brass is stronger than .45 ACP brass, equally strong is the 460R.

My personal opinion has been that .45 Super brass is equally as strong as 460 Rowland brass. Some loads I've found do have to seat deeper than I prefer because they're revolver based bullets, which is why for those bullets the 460 can hold an advantage, but if the OAL can be kept the same on both, I don't see why the .45 Super couldn't handle a 460R level load in a comped gun with good support.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:14   #145
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The 21 Club


I too am working with the 45 Super in a G-21. My primers look like these after firing. Isn't this considered primer flattening? I am using Winchester Primers. I have been shooting 8.5 gr of Power Pistol with 230 XTP and see this. Is this normal? Should I use a different primer. I am using the reduced power striker spring, 24# Wolff recoil spring with their full length uncaptured guiderod, an a 6" KKM barrel. I have not cronographed this so I do not know what velocity I am getting. Would love to get near 1200 fps if it is feasable. I have also had some issues with feeding when I went up to 9.5 gr PP. I need to try Vaq's fix with the double mag springs.......I had been thinking of something like that but hadn't had time to try it. I have ordered some extra power Wolff mag springs but havn't received them yet. Seems that might not be enough spring unless I put a Wolff with a stock mag spring. So much to try, so little time. It seems we really need a 45 Super club.

I have read and reread this thread several times. I even have it on my Favorites tab. This is the most info I have found at any one place for the 45 Super period. It needs to be more accessable so other can find it. I tripped over it doing a google search...and I am a GT member!

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:36   #146
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My primers look like these after firing. Isn't this considered primer flattening?
It is hard to say the way the light is in the photo. But if I were to guess, I would say yes.

If in doubt, work up some light loads and look at those primers.

This being said, I don't think this is a good measure for 45 Super loads in Glocks.
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Old 06-17-2013, 18:49   #147
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It is hard to tell with that lighting, but as far as it being flattened, yes it's flattened a small amount but not badly. I don't generally have an issue with a little bit of flattening, but I've yet to have any loads exhibit severe flattening. Here's a pretty good example of a truly flat primer:

The 21 Club

The middle is flatter than the one on the left, but the one on the right is FLAT. Plus some primers are softer than others and may exhibit this sooner than others.

Your goal of 1200 fps with a 230gr XTP should be no problem with Power Pistol. You mentioned you had some issues at 9.5gr, which are probably similar to the issues I had when I shot .45 Super from a standard 4.6" KKM.

I got the comped barrel to help slow down the slide speed and it's definitely helped. 9.8gr PP was getting me right at 1175 fps (230gr) from my 5" comped KKM, so with an extra inch you should be there, and then some, that is if you can get your slide slowed down a bit. The same amount of Longshot (9.8gr) got me 1230 fps from the 5" KKM. If you run across some Longshot you might want to give it a try, it should get you 1200 fps at maybe a little over 9 grains.

You are right, there aren't very many sources AT ALL for .45 Super data out there, and it's good you found this!
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:49   #148
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The 21 Club
Good article.
http://www.massreloading.com/reading...ure_signs.html
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:41   #149
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That was a good article.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:53   #150
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Anybody tried the 200gr XTP on hogs? It should do fine.....if it is as tough as the 230gr XTP. I have always preferred 230 for a 45 auto but if the 200gr XTP will do then I could push it to 1200 fps and shoot a bit flatter that the 230. Anyone have accuracy differences between 200 vs 230 gr XTP? Inquiring minds want to know!
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