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Old 08-12-2012, 16:56   #101
CanyonMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Glock View Post
I'm still having trouble with my G21SF cycling the .45 Super rounds here lately. I have a 22lb. ISMI recoil spring, SS guide rod, LW 6" non ported barrel.
I got the Wolff extra power mag springs, still jamming. It will fire a round and then jam at the feed ram. I think it's the profile of the bullet I'm using. I have been using Rainer 230 JHP slugs. They have a SWC shape to the nose and may be causing the jam.
When I first starting shooting .45 Supers in this set up a couple of years ago, I was using Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golder Sabre. Don't remember that happening with those bullets, more of round nose profile. I'll try to find some of those scarce and more expensive bullets and see how they work.


Hey amigo, I use 22# ISMI springs and a areo-tek SS rod in the G20/21. But, let me share this with ya. When I put the extra power wolff "mag springs" in, everything went south !!!

Same type issues your having. I put in NEW OEM springs (mag springs) and ALL was fine from then to now.

I know folks use them and no problems, i am happy for them, but I have always had issues with Wolff xtra power mag springs... Would never use them again.


Hope this helps in some way...


Good luck amigo !








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Old 08-13-2012, 14:56   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaquero aleman View Post
I had the same problem until I finally managed to get two standard magazine springs installed into one magazine. The double springs provide far more power than the Wolff extra power springs. Unfortunately, I can only get 11 rounds in my mags but they feed the 230gr 45 Super I got from Underwood Ammo without problems.

I managed to get two original mag springs into one of my OEM Glock mags that I'll use for the .45 Super rounds. Man, I see what you mean, it is STIFF, ought to keep the slide from out running the mag with this kind of pressure in the mags.
Looking forward to trying it out soon. If I can only get 7-8 .45 Supers in this mag I will be happy. Feed and function is what I need to turn this G 21SF into a great woods gun, along with my Gen 4 20 10mm.
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Old 08-13-2012, 20:41   #103
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Sounds great! I get 11 rounds in my double-sprung mags. Good luck.
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Old 08-13-2012, 21:11   #104
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I had to use my OEM mag loader to the get the rounds to load into the mag. Real strong spring pressure with the double springs.
Hopefully, this should cure the jamming after I fire the first round. I'll be getting some more 230 gr. JHP bullets soon, more of a round nose profile this time.

I enjoy the .45 Super round too much to let the jamming stop me.

Where there is a will, there is a way, as they say....
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Old 08-15-2012, 14:04   #105
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Warning: the following information is conjecture by a total amateur and may result in you blowing off your face! follow at your own Darwinian risk!

Over the last two years I have done extensive testing of hot loads out of my G21 (gen 3) with both the stock barrel and a standard (4.6") Lone Wolf barrel. I have also played around with lots of recoil spring combinations.
My opinion is that, up to the point you are edging into Rowland level pressures, the stock mag springs are fine. For anything more than +p level recoil a 22-24# spring is advisable. I think most people are having cycling problems at the upper end more from not holding the gun flat than not having enough spring. With high recoil and slide velocities unintended limp wristing results. Glocks are light and with high recoil impulse it is very easy to let the muzzle snap upwards which can lead to FTF problems.
I have duplicated many of the loads presented here as well as many with IMR 800x. ~1100fps with the Hunters Supply 275gr WFN is very doable with factory Win. brass and WLP primers and 800x.
The real issue with the G21 is chamber support (or lack thereof with the stock barrel. Hot +p or entry .45 super loads are all the brass will take (even Starline super brass) with the huge hogged out stock barrel. With a well supported chamber .460 Rowland level loads are possible with standard Win .45ACP brass. The issue with many aftermarket chambers is short throats. Sending JR at LWD your barrel with some dummy loads can result in more room to run longer COL and reduce pressure.
Longshot, Power Pistol, and 800x are the powers to go to. Blue dot gives decent numbers but gets peaky and will spike badly in cold weather. IMO it's dangerous for hot loads. If you use 800x or Longshot and work up slowly in the stock barrel you will get a very predictable increase in case head expansion at the six o'clock position. You can go much higher in a LWD or KKM barrel.
As many have noted, the G21 loaded with heavy hard cast is a fearsome woods gun. As far as I am concerned the Hunters Supply 275gr at about 1050 will do anything you need out of a handgun short of the great bears. This load shoots about an inch and to point of aim with my stock Meprolights and is well below max load for the gun and fairly mellow shooting. It sails through elk too
The next evolution is to have the slide inletted and mount a Trijicon RMR so you have a handheld carbine with easy hits out to 150yds
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Old 08-15-2012, 19:16   #106
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SHE RUNS, SHE RUNS!! I tried the 2 mag springs and all problems went away. I can get 11 in the mag and 13 with +2 mag extenders. I used 1 stock spring and 1 Wolff spring together in each mag, the Wolff springs are coiled a little different so they fit inside the stock spring. I am now thinking about getting some springs for the 25 round mags and cutting them to the necessary size to function and maybe I will be able to get 1 more round in the mag.
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Old 08-18-2012, 19:57   #107
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I don't know if this will help you, but I had to use two standard mag springs in each mag for my 21. I had the same feeding issues with 45 Super and 460 Rowland. It did not fix the 460 Rowland but 230gr @ 1100fps runs like a charm with the doubled mag springs. I also run a Sprinco with an upgraded sub spring and a 22# recoil spring. It will feed 8 out of 10 on the 460 Rowland and feeds the Super with no problems. Good luck.

P.S. my "extra power" wolff mag springs are collecting dust.

Hey, thanks for for the tip on the double mag springs. I tried that today with my .45 Super loads and no JAMS. Not one. I only shot about 7 on one string of shots and three on another one. But, it quit jamming. Great tip to cure the jamming and keep the .45 Super's rockin along in my G21SF.
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Old 08-18-2012, 20:58   #108
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21Glock Your more than welcome, it was very frustrating for me and then someone gave me the same tip. Good Luck!
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Old 08-19-2012, 20:14   #109
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Originally Posted by vaquero aleman View Post
21Glock Your more than welcome, it was very frustrating for me and then someone gave me the same tip. Good Luck!

I'll keep this one mag rigged with the double springs for the .45 Super loads and my standard mags with one springs set up for my practice and SD loads.
Have you used a 24lb. recoil spring any with your .45 Super loads while using the double springs in your mag?
I'm using about 13.5 gr. of AA#7 behind a 230gr. JHP for around 1200 fps in my .45 Super loads. Definite difference from shooting hardball or standard .45 ACP rounds.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:50   #110
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I'll keep this one mag rigged with the double springs for the .45 Super loads and my standard mags with one springs set up for my practice and SD loads.
Have you used a 24lb. recoil spring any with your .45 Super loads while using the double springs in your mag?
I'm using about 13.5 gr. of AA#7 behind a 230gr. JHP for around 1200 fps in my .45 Super loads. Definite difference from shooting hardball or standard .45 ACP rounds.
I ordered a Wolff 20, 22 and 24# recoil spring and eventually left the 24# installed. Being a man that trusts very few people, I bought a fish scale from Wal Mart and tested my springs. I believe that the 24# is closer to a 22#, but it does just fine. The double sprung mags were my last modification. But, you have to understand, I have been engineering my G21 to fire .460 Rowland. The 45 Super loads I have been shooting are from Underwood Ammo and they are 230gr @ 1100fps. The Rowland loads are 230gr @ 1300fps and as soon as Underwood begins selling thier Rowland loads it will be 230gr @ 1350fps. I eventually purchased a "Sprinco" recoil reduction system to stop the slide from destroying the frame. The Sprinco "Corbon" unit was not strong enough for the Rowland so I returned it to the factory and they upgraded the sub spring for Rowland. So when I shoot 45 Super it is more like shooting medium range 10mm loads. And when I shoot 45 ACP it is like shooting a BB gun. But I have also skipped the compensator which Johnny Rowland says is necessary to shoot his .460 Rowland. I have an LWD 5.2" 45 ACP barrel that I cut down to 4.75" and reamed out to accept .460 Rowland(.460 Rowland cases are 1/16" longer than ACP). It is really pushing the limitations of the G21 to shoot 460 Rowland without a compensator but that is what I have. With the compensator installed it is just too much gun to carry comfortably. I intend to, eventually, purchase a solid top long slide and 6.61" barrel from LWD and a Yankee Hill Machine compensator, but that is down the road a bit. I believe that with the 6.61" barrel I can get a 185 grain bullet to leave the muzzle at about 1700 fps. Or a 230 grain bullet at about 1500 fps. And if I start re-loading I might be able to attain 45 Winchester Magnum velocity. Pretty hot, no?
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:08   #111
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I ordered a Wolff 20, 22 and 24# recoil spring and eventually left the 24# installed. Being a man that trusts very few people, I bought a fish scale from Wal Mart and tested my springs. I believe that the 24# is closer to a 22#, but it does just fine. The double sprung mags were my last modification. But, you have to understand, I have been engineering my G21 to fire .460 Rowland. The 45 Super loads I have been shooting are from Underwood Ammo and they are 230gr @ 1100fps. The Rowland loads are 230gr @ 1300fps and as soon as Underwood begins selling thier Rowland loads it will be 230gr @ 1350fps. I eventually purchased a "Sprinco" recoil reduction system to stop the slide from destroying the frame. The Sprinco "Corbon" unit was not strong enough for the Rowland so I returned it to the factory and they upgraded the sub spring for Rowland. So when I shoot 45 Super it is more like shooting medium range 10mm loads. And when I shoot 45 ACP it is like shooting a BB gun. But I have also skipped the compensator which Johnny Rowland says is necessary to shoot his .460 Rowland. I have an LWD 5.2" 45 ACP barrel that I cut down to 4.75" and reamed out to accept .460 Rowland(.460 Rowland cases are 1/16" longer than ACP). It is really pushing the limitations of the G21 to shoot 460 Rowland without a compensator but that is what I have. With the compensator installed it is just too much gun to carry comfortably. I intend to, eventually, purchase a solid top long slide and 6.61" barrel from LWD and a Yankee Hill Machine compensator, but that is down the road a bit. I believe that with the 6.61" barrel I can get a 185 grain bullet to leave the muzzle at about 1700 fps. Or a 230 grain bullet at about 1500 fps. And if I start re-loading I might be able to attain 45 Winchester Magnum velocity. Pretty hot, no?
Thanks for info. I'll probably just use my 24lb. when I shoot .45 Supers, just to make sure I keep the slide off the frame as much as possible. Now that I have it not jamming anymore.
The .460 Rowland should turn your 21 into a real cannon!
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Old 08-22-2012, 19:41   #112
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Vaquero Aleman, did the factory give you any idea of the weight of the upgraded sprinco unit?

I'm having frame contact with a 24# Wolff spring. I'm pushing 185xtp's north of 1,350fps. The 21 cycles good...no issues.

I've been thinking of trying to modify a 1911 28# spring to see if that could help with the contact.
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Old 08-22-2012, 20:49   #113
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Vaquero Aleman, did the factory give you any idea of the weight of the upgraded sprinco unit?

I'm having frame contact with a 24# Wolff spring. I'm pushing 185xtp's north of 1,350fps. The 21 cycles good...no issues.

I've been thinking of trying to modify a 1911 28# spring to see if that could help with the contact.
If your talking about spring weight, the recoil spring that they provide is 17# but the sub-spring is a different story. I use a 22# recoil spring with my Sprinco and they never actually told me what the weight of the sub-spring is, but my Wal Mart fish scale puts it around 35#. I originally purchased the Glock 20/21 "Corbon" model but I had to send it back to them and I told them my ammo was 230gr @ 1350fps and they said they would install a sub-spring that would handle that Power Factor. Of course the ammo that I purchased was from GA Arms and it is a 230gr @ 1300fps. As soon as Underwood gets it listed I will be buying my 460 Rowland from them, because it will be full power 230gr @ 1350fps, from a 5 inch barrel I am assuming.

I did not follow any rules in modifying my 21 to fire Rowland.

I am pleased to note, that in its present configuration, my 21 feels like I'm shooting 10mm when I shoot 230gr @ 1100fps. It handles 45 Super like most handle 45 ACP.

This is my 460 Rowland thread:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1409265
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Old 08-24-2012, 15:49   #114
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Sprinco unit ordered. Allen is a good guy to work with. V.A., he remembered you, so I reminded him of what you were looking for and had him duplicate it. Thanks for the tip, should be here next week.
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Old 08-24-2012, 16:44   #115
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Sprinco unit ordered. Allen is a good guy to work with. V.A., he remembered you, so I reminded him of what you were looking for and had him duplicate it. Thanks for the tip, should be here next week.
Sounds great! I would definately like to read about your results. I've pretty much only shot the 230gr in Super and Rowland so I don't have as much trigger time with the lighter stuff yet.
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Old 09-18-2012, 19:15   #116
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I finally shot my G21 with the new Sprinco setup. I marked the slide with a paint marker to see if there was frame contact and there was none. (I also put it in my G20 and it performes flawlessy there too)

I used previously loaded ammo that had 185gr Hornady XTP and AA#7. Velocities were in the 1325fps range. The cases and primers looked great with room to go up.

I would like to see if I can safely make 1400fps.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:58   #117
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all your info on the 45 Super, I've been reading up on it and I decided to go in but I have a few questions.

What are the basic things to buy?

I have a Gen 3 21 with a Storm Lake threaded barrel already (looking at selling it to buy a 6" though)

Thanks!
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Old 09-26-2012, 14:04   #118
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The 6" storm lake is the stuff. Mine shoots 10 shot 1" groups at 25 yards off of bags.

Think about your trigger as well. I am using a lone wolf housing with adjustable over travel stop, a 6#trigger spring, 3.5 connector, titanium safety button, polished factory striker and a siderlockt trigger. Mine is 1000X better than the factory trigger which greatly aids accuracy. reflex264
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Old 09-29-2012, 21:56   #119
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About 4 years ago I spent a lot of time on 45Super in my G21 but could not get feed reliability. After reading this, the double mag spring may be the answer I was looking for. I have two LW barrels,one standard length and one threaded 5.3". I believe the extra chamber support is needed as I got too many smilys with the OEM Glock barrel. I used both the 22 and 24lb ISMI captured recoil springs. Tried the shok buffs but they quickly got cut up so I pitched them. Tried the Wolf Xtra power springs but thought they were worse! I concluded then that the slide velocity was too too fast for the mag springs to to catch up, resulting in nose dives into the feed ramp and mag. I was using BB 230s at 1100fps. Gary Hindman at ACE in TX told me they had to port the barrel to get the 45Super to work in the G21. He also gave me the spring specs to use in my S&W 4506, which has worked flawlessly in 45Super, and will still work 100% in 45+P and standard press 45ACP.

Double mag springs looks like the answer! Thanks folks, will give it a go!
Hey CanyonMan, Tu 45Super or not Tu do?

Also: re the XTP 230 bullets. Factory Hornady 230 XTPs have a shoulder on the bullet that would jam in the barrel lands on my LW barrels but not in the Glock barrel. To use these XTPs in the LW barrel, the bullets would have to be seated deeper, or ream out the barrel lands slightly so the bullet doesn't kiss them so hard!

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Old 10-27-2012, 10:13   #120
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More data! I ran through an assortment of .45 ACP and .45 Super loads today. All shot from my Gen4 Glock 21 with 4 port KKM barrel (approx 5" in length). Listed .45 Super loads used new Starline brass and CCI LP primers. The velocities are averages.

10gr Power Pistol, 230gr XTP @ 1.260": 1177 fps (707 ft-lbs)

Previously I had loaded 9.5gr at a shorter 1.230" and got 1135 fps average out of my older stock length KKM barrel (4.6"), but it was also about 90 degrees outside, whereas with the data today, temps were around 50 degrees. My new KKM 4 port will accept XTP's loaded out to 1.260" (and longer, but I don't see going past 1.260") but my previous stock length barrel would only accept them @ 1.230".

My goal is 1200 fps with a 230gr JHP. If it was warmer out, I could have gotten it I think, but next up I'm going to try 10gr PP @ ~1.240-1.250". Brass looked good throughout all testing and I feel this is safe and should get me to, and even over, the 1200 fps mark. A note on bullets, I chose the XTP for several reasons. One I have more of them, and they're shorter than 230gr Gold Dots and I feel they might hold up the best at these speeds. The 230gr Gold Dot is definitely longer than the 230gr XTP, so loaded to the same OAL, powder charge would need to decrease, then work your way back up. I know it isn't scientific, but the 230gr Gold Dot @ 1175-1200 fps blows apart in water jugs, and I do mean completely blows apart, all the pedals sheared off except one what was barely hanging on.

On game, the Gold Dot probably wouldn't come apart quite as bad since water jugs have a tenancy to exaggerate expansion. Either way, the XTP and Gold Dot are my two go-to hollow point bullets for the .45 Super.

More data:
11.3gr Power Pistol, 200gr XTP @ 1.260": 1351 fps (810+ ft-lbs)
Very impressed with this, although it may be too much of a good thing. The biggest issue I see concerning the .45 Super (a problem made even worse in the 460 Rowland) is that I'm pushing bullets designed for .45 ACP velocities well above what they're "supposed" to be driven. This doesn't make it "bad", it just means that one should almost expect bullet failure. Just throwing that out there for thought.

The 200gr XTP and 200gr Gold Dot are very similar in length, and both are my pick for bullets most likely to hold together.

More:
9.5gr 800x, 230gr FMJ @ 1.260": 1080 fps (very consistent, extreme spread of 7 fps). I was uncertain of what to expect with this load, but it shot very well. Not the most powerful 230gr load, but still offers around 600 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

8.5gr Power Pistol, 250gr hardcast Missouri "PinBusters" @ 1.220": 1101 fps (673 ft-lbs) This bullet is hardcast and although I prefer other designs, this one should get the job done, and they're inexpensive to boot.


I've been curious of ~250gr bullets in the .45 Super, and it's something I plan on playing with more. Next up I'm going to do 250gr Gold Dots ("Deepcurl")and I'm going to order some Beartooth 255gr WFN bullets. The 250gr Gold Dot is very long, but it will feed if I seat it to a max OAL of 1.210", which is right around the canalure anyways. Data is non existent so I will have to work up a load for it, but that's almost the case with any .45 Super. My goal is 1050-1100 fps with it.

The Beartooth 255 WFN is a very short bullet for it's weight, so that could be very interesting. I know a guy on here has loaded up the Beartooth 265gr WFNGC and got it up to ~1150 fps. My goal for the 255gr WFN is ~1150 fps from my 5" KKM barrel, that's more than enough for any critter I would use, and if I need more the 454 Casull comes out.

Also I plan on coming up with some VV 3N38 data as well, it's been very impressive in my 6" G24 bbl and I feel it could be awesome as well in the .45 Super.
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