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Old 09-21-2013, 14:01   #241
picketpin
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Originally Posted by vaquero aleman View Post
By the by, how and did you solve your problem with the comp coming loose?

Well, I have had some other projects and life going on so I haven't been back to the range with my G21 460 yet. I did as you said got heavy with the wrenches and added some blue locktite. All my other shooting I went pretty easy on tightening the combination together. As we know the Rowland is a handfull.

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Old 09-23-2013, 07:13   #242
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I broke down and bought a box of 185gr XTP's. I ordered them online, so they aint' here yet but I'll have something new to play with for a little bit.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:27   #243
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Firing Underwood 45 Super from my Glock 29.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=W6Mjk5Ryj_s
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Old 10-04-2013, 21:16   #244
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Cool vid aaquero aleman, there's a chance that had you been shooting two handed you might not have had the stoppages that you did. Nice setup BTW.
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Old 10-04-2013, 22:12   #245
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New Data

I got around to playing with some of the 185gr XTP's I had bought not too long ago. In general, I don't really care too much about light for caliber bullets, but then again, sometimes it's just fun to play around. I've now got all three .45 ACP designed XTP's, the 185gr, the 200gr and the 230gr.

The hollow cavities on them are all a little different, basically the 185gr is the most shallow of the three, and the 230gr is the deepest of the three. As you might expect, the 200gr is kind of in the middle, but all three are different. Hornady also rates the 185gr .45 XTP as being as tough as their 180gr .40 XTP, they claim both are good for 1450 fps.

I didn't just load up XTPs, but I also didn't have any 800x data for any of the XTPs, something I wanted to change. The only three powders I used today were Power Pistol and Longshot, but mainly 800x. Same setup as always, Gen4 Glock 21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel, using stock RSA.

All brass is new Starline brass primed with CCI LP primers. Temperature around 80 degrees and relatively humid. Because there isn't much data for the .45 Super, let alone "warm" .45 Super, here's the deal: ONLY USE IN GUNS PROPERLY SETUP TO HANDLE WARM .45 SUPER. Also, drop the loads a little bit and work up to them in your gun since your setup is likely different from mine. Velocities listed are averages.

185gr XTP, 12.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.240": 1,420 fps

200gr XTP, 11.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,393 fps

I'll get around to trying out some Longshot with 185gr, and for what it's worth the same amount of Longshot has always given higher velocity than Power Pistol in the Super, though PP is usually a bit more consistent.

Next are some 800x loads.

185gr XTP, 15.0gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,568 fps (1,010 ft-lbs)

200gr XTP, 14.0gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,455 fps (940 ft-lbs)

230gr XTP, 12.0gr 800x @ 1.250': 1,298 fps (860 ft-lbs)

275gr Hunters Supply, 10.5gr 800x @ 1.270": 1,190 fps (865 ft-lbs)

300gr Beartooth LFNGC, 9.8gr 800x @ 1.270": 1,147 fps (876 ft-lbs)

All of the 800x loads were very consistent, the 185, 230, and 275gr loads had single digit extreme spreads. A few notes about the loads, with the 200gr XTP, 13.8gr averaged faster (1470 fps) but wasn't consistent at all, with an ES of over 60 fps. I could have got more out of the 230gr XTP, but 1300 fps is plenty fast for a bullet Hornady rates for up to 1250 fps.

I didn't run any 250/255gr loads, mainly because I'm pleased with them running ~1,270 fps/900 ft-lbs, and trying to squeeze out a few more fps won't make any difference in performance.

I don't know really what purpose a 185gr JHP at 1570 fps serves, but it was fun to shoot...and loud.
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Old 10-06-2013, 13:21   #246
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Curious as to how the 185gr XTP holds up, especially since despite having worse sectional density than the 180gr XTP (.400"), Hornady rates them both capable of withstanding 1450 fps. So I shot one loaded with 12.0gr Power Pistol (avg. velocity of 1,420 fps) in some 1 gal. water jugs. Not scientific at all, but water acts like a hard barrier and is usually tough on bullets, and typically if it holds together in water it will likely hold together well in game. It decimated the first two jugs, and stopped in the fourth.

It held together just fine. I think its smaller hollow cavity helps it to hold together better than the deeper cavity 200gr XTP and 230gr XTP, both of which Hornady rates at up to 1250 fps. Despite it's not so good sectional density it really performed well, only one little sliver of lead came off. What's also somewhat interesting is that earlier I had shot a 180gr XTP, also rated for 1450 fps, out of my G23 w/KKm barrel using a load that averages 1,200 fps. It too stopped in the forth jug but shed a considerable amount of its weight in the process...so faster wouldn't really help matters (penetration) with that bullet.

I don't think the 185gr XTP is built for my 1570 fps Super loads, but it seems to hold up to 1400-1450 fps. I guess the point of this post is that it held together better than I thought it would, and penetrated fairly well too.

180gr .400 XTP @ ~1,200 fps:
The 21 Club


185gr .451" XTP @ ~1,420 fps:
The 21 Club
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Old 10-06-2013, 14:39   #247
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Good info SD.
BTW, I just ordered some Clear Ballistics Gel and will commence testing high end .45 Super/Rowland and .357 Sig/.40 loads in calibrated gel (may also throw in some bones, barriers, etc). Will post results as generated.

I'm really interested in balancing wound cavity with penetration for a woods carry so figured I better get some measurable data.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:35   #248
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I look forward to seeing your results Cycletroll, that should prove interesting!
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:57   #249
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Finally figured out this dagnab software. Couple of shots from my G29 shooting Underwood 45 Super. The first and second pic are actually the same 185gr round and the third is a 230gr:

The 21 Club

The 21 Club

The 21 Club
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Old 10-17-2013, 16:05   #250
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Nice fireballs!

I have a small project I've got going on, two really. One I have a comp ready to be made that should provide more recoil reduction and slide speed reduction. I don't have it yet, but it's close.

Second, I'm going to fire lapp a few barrels, starting with the Ruger Bisley .45 Colt, but also I'm going to run some through my KKM .45 barrel. There are some definite accuracy gains to be had from doing this, but also a side effect seems to be additional velocity.

For the Ruger, I've got the cylinder throats reamed correctly, but I'm using Beartooth's fire lapping kit to take accuracy up a notch. From reading several articles on it, accuracy increase is sometimes substantial.

However I'm also intrigued on how it would work in making the KKM barrel I use for the .45 Super even more accurate. I was beginning to wonder if perhaps it would be a waste of time, but I found an interesting article and now I'm pumped to get this done to the KKM G21 bbl. I'm really wanting to run big hardcasts in it, and being more accurate is never a bad thing.

Here's an article on fire lapping four different .45 pistol barrels, and pay attention not only to the accuracy gain, but look at the velocity increase. I'm planning on doing my KKM .40 barrels and when I get a KKM 10mm barrel, on that too. Here's the article, I thought it was interesting:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...h_notes.htm/63
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Old 10-21-2013, 21:04   #251
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Fire lapping will leingthing your throat, that can be a good thing sometimes.

My LW G30 barrel shoots better than that and I have not fire lapped it, yet.
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Old 10-21-2013, 21:23   #252
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Some results.

I finally got back around to testing some .45 Super loads I did last year. The chrony was setup about 10 yards from the muzzle as I had some shade issues, so the velocities may be a little low. It was also cool (70F) but not cold.

Precision Delta 230gr FMJ
WLP
Starline .45 Super brass
1.265" OAL

Powders tested were VV-N350, Longshot and Blue Dot.

I ran them through 3 configurations, Stock G21 (w 22lb IMI RSA), G21 with 6" KKM hunting barrel and a Government sized 1911 (again with a 22lb recoil spring) with the N350, but was running low on time so just used the 1911 for the Longshot and Blue Dot, as I felt it was a middle compromise.

VV-N350

9.2gr - G21 - 1030fps
9.2gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1074fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1060fps
9.4gr - G21 - 1058fps
9.4gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1106fps
9.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1078fps
9.6gr - G21 - 1068fps.
9.6gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1121fps.
9.6gr - 5" 1911 - 1108fps.


Longshot

8.8gr - 5" 1911 - 1056fps
9.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1096fps.

Blue Dot

12.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
12.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1080fps
12.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1092fps.

None of the brass showed any signs of over pressure, primers generally looked OK, with some flattening generally as I moved up.

The VV-N350 had the lowest SD's (single digit in all the strings), I didn't keep them as everything was manual (old chrony), I really like this powder.

I loaded some more tonight starting at the max listed above and moving up in .2gr increments with each powder. I ran out of 230gr FMJ's after the N350 loads, so I switched to 230gr XTP's which require me to seat a little deeper so the 1911 will go into battery at 1.235" OAL (lack of freebore).

With the XTP's at 12.6gr of Blue Dot it felt like I was really starting to compress the powder and leaving a noticeable ring on the ogive, so that may be pretty close to all the powder I will be able to get into the case with the XTP's. I can seat the PD RN FMJ's out a little farther, but the wait right now is like 18 weeks, so it will be a while for these results.

If I get time, I am also going to do a work up for VV-N105. Not sure it will work all that well in the shorter barrels, but I am thinking for the 1911 and 6"KKM it may shine.

These results are for informational purposes. These loads are above max listed for .45 Super where available, so only extremely experienced loaders should attempt this kind of stuff and only after following your own careful load workups, THE ABOVE MAY NOT BE SAFE IN YOUR GUN.

Last edited by WeeWilly; 10-21-2013 at 21:25..
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:14   #253
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Interesting article SD; thanks for sharing!
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:41   #254
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Quote:
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Fire lapping will leingthing your throat, that can be a good thing sometimes.

My LW G30 barrel shoots better than that and I have not fire lapped it, yet.
I've heard that as well Happie and I wouldn't mind if it did a little so I could maybe increase the OAL of some of the hardcast loads.

The one thing that struck me in the article was how poorly the 30 shot, or more likely how poorly they shot the G30. Of the several 30's I've had over the years and my new Gen4 version, none of them have shot THAT poorly, as a matter of fact they've been among the most accurate Glocks I've ever shot! I'm thinking whoever was behind the trigger in that article wasn't too familiar with the Glock trigger system.


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Interesting article SD; thanks for sharing!
No problem CT, I thought it was interesting too. Heck, before I had only really heard rifle guys talk about lapping barrels for added accuracy.

I did fire lapp both the Bisley and my KKM barrel this past weekend, did it per the instructions for the most part. I ran some seasoning loads through the KKM but haven't seasoned the Bisley yet, I'll do that this coming weekend hopefully. I'll also try to accuracy test them both too this weekend, but I could tell even during fire lapping that the groups were getting smaller and smaller.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:03   #255
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Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
I finally got back around to testing some .45 Super loads I did last year. The chrony was setup about 10 yards from the muzzle as I had some shade issues, so the velocities may be a little low. It was also cool (70F) but not cold.

Precision Delta 230gr FMJ
WLP
Starline .45 Super brass
1.265" OAL

Powders tested were VV-N350, Longshot and Blue Dot.

I ran them through 3 configurations, Stock G21 (w 22lb IMI RSA), G21 with 6" KKM hunting barrel and a Government sized 1911 (again with a 22lb recoil spring) with the N350, but was running low on time so just used the 1911 for the Longshot and Blue Dot, as I felt it was a middle compromise.

VV-N350

9.2gr - G21 - 1030fps
9.2gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1074fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1060fps
9.4gr - G21 - 1058fps
9.4gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1106fps
9.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1078fps
9.6gr - G21 - 1068fps.
9.6gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1121fps.
9.6gr - 5" 1911 - 1108fps.


Longshot

8.8gr - 5" 1911 - 1056fps
9.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1096fps.

Blue Dot

12.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
12.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1080fps
12.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1092fps.

None of the brass showed any signs of over pressure, primers generally looked OK, with some flattening generally as I moved up.

The VV-N350 had the lowest SD's (single digit in all the strings), I didn't keep them as everything was manual (old chrony), I really like this powder.

I loaded some more tonight starting at the max listed above and moving up in .2gr increments with each powder. I ran out of 230gr FMJ's after the N350 loads, so I switched to 230gr XTP's which require me to seat a little deeper so the 1911 will go into battery at 1.235" OAL (lack of freebore).

With the XTP's at 12.6gr of Blue Dot it felt like I was really starting to compress the powder and leaving a noticeable ring on the ogive, so that may be pretty close to all the powder I will be able to get into the case with the XTP's. I can seat the PD RN FMJ's out a little farther, but the wait right now is like 18 weeks, so it will be a while for these results.

If I get time, I am also going to do a work up for VV-N105. Not sure it will work all that well in the shorter barrels, but I am thinking for the 1911 and 6"KKM it may shine.

These results are for informational purposes. These loads are above max listed for .45 Super where available, so only extremely experienced loaders should attempt this kind of stuff and only after following your own careful load workups, THE ABOVE MAY NOT BE SAFE IN YOUR GUN.
Good report WW! I'm surprised that I haven't done anything with Blue Dot yet in the .45 Super, but it's good to see that you have. It also looks like between LS and BD that your velocities were very similar from the 1911.

The KKM barrel I use is right at 5" long and in looking back at what I've loaded with the 230gr Precision Delta FMJ using Longshot:

230gr FMJ, 9.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,185 fps avg (15 fps ES)

230gr FMJ, 9.8gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,229 fps avg (37 fps ES)

I noticed that with 9.2gr you were getting 1096 fps avg, which isn't too far off but it does seem a little bit low, also take into account you're loading them a little bit longer than me as well.

I have in past had some iffy numbers come through my chronograph, for instance one time I was shooting some 10mm 200gr loads using Longshot, and 8.4gr gave me about 1075 fps with a FMJ, but a different time I tried 8.5gr with a Nosler 200gr JHP and got 1,207!

I always make a habit of running some test loads through the Chrony first to make sure it's reading right, and often it's a 230gr FMJ loaded to 1.240" over 4.8-5.0gr WST which generally gives me between 825-845 fps from the 5" bbl.

Also make sure the battery in your Chrony isn't old and weak, and then make sure the steel rods are straight and not bent (I knicked one with a bullet one time bending it and it threw the velocities WAY off). Make sure it's level, I sit mine on a leveled tripod then use a level to make sure the Chrony itself is setting level, and as always make sure you're using good light. Overcast works well so you don't have to use the diffusers, but if it is sunny out, try and do it when the sun isn't casting shadows, any kind of sideways light can throw readings off a bit. If it is casting shadows, just sit the Chrony in the shadows, but make sure you've got open sky above.

Good to see your VV N350 data too, and I'd be very interested in seeing any N105 results! I've got some 3N38 but haven't tried it yet, but one thing is for sure, VV makes some fine powders and generally some of the most consistent I've ever used.

Keep us updated WW!
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Old 10-23-2013, 13:20   #256
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Good advice all around

Thanks for the advice SD, good stuff. I am not sure I will get up as high velocity wise as you have achieved, that is some spicy meatballs right there.

The use of known calibration rounds on the chrony is a good idea. My chrony in general has been pretty consistent if I keep a close eye on how the light is hitting it as the day wears on.

I did have it set quite far away on these tests as the sun position required it. I think maybe it affected the results on the low side. It is also pretty nerve wracking shooting through the goal posts that far away.

I will get a chance to see what the seating depth differences might mean as I had to switch to XTPs for my current tests as I ran out of the RN 230gr FMJ's, the XTPs have to be seated much deeper. The shoulder brake jams into my lands on my 1911 if it sits too high above the case mouth.

I did get pretty good results from the N350. I am thinking the N105 may be a little slow for the fat case of the .45. I use it a lot in my hot 10mm loads, using 12.5gr as my SD/hunting load with a 180gr slug in that caliber. 3N38 might be the ultimate powder for the 45 Super in hotter loads. If you end up testing it, make sure you let us know. I have so many powders laying around, I decided I am going to use up everything I have before starting any new orders.

I want to start testing some WFNGC's and really appreciated your posts on the Bear Tooth's. I only saw one listed under the .45 Auto, were you buying the ones under the 45 LC listings?

Thanks again for all the advice.

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Old 10-23-2013, 21:49   #257
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Unless you have a lot of Blue Dot and are attached to it I would ditch it for Super. It gets finicky at max loads (which are lower than Longshot, Power Pistol and 800x) and can spike dangerously in cold weather with max loads. I worked up a lot of Blue Dot loads in my stock G21 barrel and ended up abandoning it for the afore mentioned powders.

BTW, I just finished shooting a bunch of test loads into my new Clear Ballistics Gel. Way Cool!
I will work on a report but it may be a few days; there is a lot of info. Also I took video which probably isn't very good as I'm new to the skill. I also have to figure out how to edit it (IMovie pointers anyone?) to make it concise.

The short of it is that the 250gr .452 XTP is stellar as is the 185gr Barnes XPD (1210fps and 1475fps respectively). These were shot out of a G21 with LW fully supported barrel with compensator and 24# RSA.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:47   #258
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Unless you have a lot of Blue Dot and are attached to it I would ditch it for Super. It gets finicky at max loads (which are lower than Longshot, Power Pistol and 800x) and can spike dangerously in cold weather with max loads. I worked up a lot of Blue Dot loads in my stock G21 barrel and ended up abandoning it for the afore mentioned powders.

BTW, I just finished shooting a bunch of test loads into my new Clear Ballistics Gel. Way Cool!
I will work on a report but it may be a few days; there is a lot of info. Also I took video which probably isn't very good as I'm new to the skill. I also have to figure out how to edit it (IMovie pointers anyone?) to make it concise.

The short of it is that the 250gr .452 XTP is stellar as is the 185gr Barnes XPD (1210fps and 1475fps respectively). These were shot out of a G21 with LW fully supported barrel with compensator and 24# RSA.
I have read others post similar issues with BD. I think Alliant actually pulled their load data with BD and 41 Mag because of something one of the ballisticians saw when testing that combination. I have never seen anything myself, although I admit to very little experience in .45 Super. I have a ton of experience with BD in other calibers like .44RM, .357Mag, 10mm, even 9mm Luger, with no adverse glitches.

I really look forward to your video. One of the things I like to understand is how bullets designed for a given caliber perform when pushed harder. I think if guys that like nuclear loading knew what was happening with their bullet of choice when pushed beyond design limits they may not be loading as hot.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:41   #259
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I have read others post similar issues with BD. I think Alliant actually pulled their load data with BD and 41 Mag because of something one of the ballisticians saw when testing that combination. I have never seen anything myself, although I admit to very little experience in .45 Super. I have a ton of experience with BD in other calibers like .44RM, .357Mag, 10mm, even 9mm Luger, with no adverse glitches.

I really look forward to your video. One of the things I like to understand is how bullets designed for a given caliber perform when pushed harder. I think if guys that like nuclear loading knew what was happening with their bullet of choice when pushed beyond design limits they may not be loading as hot.
Willy, your observation about design envelop is precisely why I never bought a 10mm. There are No bullets (other than hard cast) that can hold up to the velocity potential of the big 10mm case. I can exceed the structural integrity of most if not all .401 bullets loading hot in a strong, well-supported, properly sprung .40S&W. Usually in a smaller handier package.

.452 Bullets designed for .45 Colt and muzzle loaders are designed for the speeds you can get going in a .45 Super/.460 Rowland. Plus, they're just bigger in diameter, with more mass and just plain do more damage.

I have always been drawn to hot loaded .355-.357 bullets and of course .429-.452. I have some .40's but mostly don't care for it.

Interesting thing is that a 180gr .357 bullet at 1145fps penetrated exactly (22.5") the same as a 250gr .452 XTP; very similar wound profile just scaled down about 25%

I will post some pics of the gel block permanent cavities tomorrow. The video will take longer as I am a total newb to video processing/editing

PS, the 185gr Barnes XPD@1475 was quite impressive too! Huge initial permanent cavity and 20" of penetration and of course 100% wt. retention.
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Old 10-24-2013, 21:16   #260
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Willy, your observation about design envelop is precisely why I never bought a 10mm. There are No bullets (other than hard cast) that can hold up to the velocity potential of the big 10mm case. I can exceed the structural integrity of most if not all .401 bullets loading hot in a strong, well-supported, properly sprung .40S&W. Usually in a smaller handier package.

.452 Bullets designed for .45 Colt and muzzle loaders are designed for the speeds you can get going in a .45 Super/.460 Rowland. Plus, they're just bigger in diameter, with more mass and just plain do more damage.

I have always been drawn to hot loaded .355-.357 bullets and of course .429-.452. I have some .40's but mostly don't care for it.

Interesting thing is that a 180gr .357 bullet at 1145fps penetrated exactly (22.5") the same as a 250gr .452 XTP; very similar wound profile just scaled down about 25%

I will post some pics of the gel block permanent cavities tomorrow. The video will take longer as I am a total newb to video processing/editing

PS, the 185gr Barnes XPD@1475 was quite impressive too! Huge initial permanent cavity and 20" of penetration and of course 100% wt. retention.
I would probably sell my Model 29 if I could find any handgun that is as accurate and devastating. I can point shoot that darn gun almost as well as my best 1911 lining everything up real careful.

I use Barnes TTSX almost exclusively in my bolt hunting rifles, I need to get back around to some of their pistol bullets.

I wish I could help you with the video, but I am a complete luddite on such things as well. Can't wait to see it.

Last edited by WeeWilly; 10-24-2013 at 21:19..
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