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Old 10-21-2013, 21:04   #251
happie2shoot
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Fire lapping will leingthing your throat, that can be a good thing sometimes.

My LW G30 barrel shoots better than that and I have not fire lapped it, yet.
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Old 10-21-2013, 21:23   #252
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Some results.

I finally got back around to testing some .45 Super loads I did last year. The chrony was setup about 10 yards from the muzzle as I had some shade issues, so the velocities may be a little low. It was also cool (70F) but not cold.

Precision Delta 230gr FMJ
WLP
Starline .45 Super brass
1.265" OAL

Powders tested were VV-N350, Longshot and Blue Dot.

I ran them through 3 configurations, Stock G21 (w 22lb IMI RSA), G21 with 6" KKM hunting barrel and a Government sized 1911 (again with a 22lb recoil spring) with the N350, but was running low on time so just used the 1911 for the Longshot and Blue Dot, as I felt it was a middle compromise.

VV-N350

9.2gr - G21 - 1030fps
9.2gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1074fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1060fps
9.4gr - G21 - 1058fps
9.4gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1106fps
9.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1078fps
9.6gr - G21 - 1068fps.
9.6gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1121fps.
9.6gr - 5" 1911 - 1108fps.


Longshot

8.8gr - 5" 1911 - 1056fps
9.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1096fps.

Blue Dot

12.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
12.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1080fps
12.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1092fps.

None of the brass showed any signs of over pressure, primers generally looked OK, with some flattening generally as I moved up.

The VV-N350 had the lowest SD's (single digit in all the strings), I didn't keep them as everything was manual (old chrony), I really like this powder.

I loaded some more tonight starting at the max listed above and moving up in .2gr increments with each powder. I ran out of 230gr FMJ's after the N350 loads, so I switched to 230gr XTP's which require me to seat a little deeper so the 1911 will go into battery at 1.235" OAL (lack of freebore).

With the XTP's at 12.6gr of Blue Dot it felt like I was really starting to compress the powder and leaving a noticeable ring on the ogive, so that may be pretty close to all the powder I will be able to get into the case with the XTP's. I can seat the PD RN FMJ's out a little farther, but the wait right now is like 18 weeks, so it will be a while for these results.

If I get time, I am also going to do a work up for VV-N105. Not sure it will work all that well in the shorter barrels, but I am thinking for the 1911 and 6"KKM it may shine.

These results are for informational purposes. These loads are above max listed for .45 Super where available, so only extremely experienced loaders should attempt this kind of stuff and only after following your own careful load workups, THE ABOVE MAY NOT BE SAFE IN YOUR GUN.

Last edited by WeeWilly; 10-21-2013 at 21:25..
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:14   #253
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Interesting article SD; thanks for sharing!
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:41   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happie2shoot View Post
Fire lapping will leingthing your throat, that can be a good thing sometimes.

My LW G30 barrel shoots better than that and I have not fire lapped it, yet.
I've heard that as well Happie and I wouldn't mind if it did a little so I could maybe increase the OAL of some of the hardcast loads.

The one thing that struck me in the article was how poorly the 30 shot, or more likely how poorly they shot the G30. Of the several 30's I've had over the years and my new Gen4 version, none of them have shot THAT poorly, as a matter of fact they've been among the most accurate Glocks I've ever shot! I'm thinking whoever was behind the trigger in that article wasn't too familiar with the Glock trigger system.


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Originally Posted by Cycletroll View Post
Interesting article SD; thanks for sharing!
No problem CT, I thought it was interesting too. Heck, before I had only really heard rifle guys talk about lapping barrels for added accuracy.

I did fire lapp both the Bisley and my KKM barrel this past weekend, did it per the instructions for the most part. I ran some seasoning loads through the KKM but haven't seasoned the Bisley yet, I'll do that this coming weekend hopefully. I'll also try to accuracy test them both too this weekend, but I could tell even during fire lapping that the groups were getting smaller and smaller.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:03   #255
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Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
I finally got back around to testing some .45 Super loads I did last year. The chrony was setup about 10 yards from the muzzle as I had some shade issues, so the velocities may be a little low. It was also cool (70F) but not cold.

Precision Delta 230gr FMJ
WLP
Starline .45 Super brass
1.265" OAL

Powders tested were VV-N350, Longshot and Blue Dot.

I ran them through 3 configurations, Stock G21 (w 22lb IMI RSA), G21 with 6" KKM hunting barrel and a Government sized 1911 (again with a 22lb recoil spring) with the N350, but was running low on time so just used the 1911 for the Longshot and Blue Dot, as I felt it was a middle compromise.

VV-N350

9.2gr - G21 - 1030fps
9.2gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1074fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1060fps
9.4gr - G21 - 1058fps
9.4gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1106fps
9.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1078fps
9.6gr - G21 - 1068fps.
9.6gr - G21 w/6" KKM - 1121fps.
9.6gr - 5" 1911 - 1108fps.


Longshot

8.8gr - 5" 1911 - 1056fps
9.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
9.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1096fps.

Blue Dot

12.0gr - 5" 1911 - 1069fps
12.2gr - 5" 1911 - 1080fps
12.4gr - 5" 1911 - 1092fps.

None of the brass showed any signs of over pressure, primers generally looked OK, with some flattening generally as I moved up.

The VV-N350 had the lowest SD's (single digit in all the strings), I didn't keep them as everything was manual (old chrony), I really like this powder.

I loaded some more tonight starting at the max listed above and moving up in .2gr increments with each powder. I ran out of 230gr FMJ's after the N350 loads, so I switched to 230gr XTP's which require me to seat a little deeper so the 1911 will go into battery at 1.235" OAL (lack of freebore).

With the XTP's at 12.6gr of Blue Dot it felt like I was really starting to compress the powder and leaving a noticeable ring on the ogive, so that may be pretty close to all the powder I will be able to get into the case with the XTP's. I can seat the PD RN FMJ's out a little farther, but the wait right now is like 18 weeks, so it will be a while for these results.

If I get time, I am also going to do a work up for VV-N105. Not sure it will work all that well in the shorter barrels, but I am thinking for the 1911 and 6"KKM it may shine.

These results are for informational purposes. These loads are above max listed for .45 Super where available, so only extremely experienced loaders should attempt this kind of stuff and only after following your own careful load workups, THE ABOVE MAY NOT BE SAFE IN YOUR GUN.
Good report WW! I'm surprised that I haven't done anything with Blue Dot yet in the .45 Super, but it's good to see that you have. It also looks like between LS and BD that your velocities were very similar from the 1911.

The KKM barrel I use is right at 5" long and in looking back at what I've loaded with the 230gr Precision Delta FMJ using Longshot:

230gr FMJ, 9.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,185 fps avg (15 fps ES)

230gr FMJ, 9.8gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,229 fps avg (37 fps ES)

I noticed that with 9.2gr you were getting 1096 fps avg, which isn't too far off but it does seem a little bit low, also take into account you're loading them a little bit longer than me as well.

I have in past had some iffy numbers come through my chronograph, for instance one time I was shooting some 10mm 200gr loads using Longshot, and 8.4gr gave me about 1075 fps with a FMJ, but a different time I tried 8.5gr with a Nosler 200gr JHP and got 1,207!

I always make a habit of running some test loads through the Chrony first to make sure it's reading right, and often it's a 230gr FMJ loaded to 1.240" over 4.8-5.0gr WST which generally gives me between 825-845 fps from the 5" bbl.

Also make sure the battery in your Chrony isn't old and weak, and then make sure the steel rods are straight and not bent (I knicked one with a bullet one time bending it and it threw the velocities WAY off). Make sure it's level, I sit mine on a leveled tripod then use a level to make sure the Chrony itself is setting level, and as always make sure you're using good light. Overcast works well so you don't have to use the diffusers, but if it is sunny out, try and do it when the sun isn't casting shadows, any kind of sideways light can throw readings off a bit. If it is casting shadows, just sit the Chrony in the shadows, but make sure you've got open sky above.

Good to see your VV N350 data too, and I'd be very interested in seeing any N105 results! I've got some 3N38 but haven't tried it yet, but one thing is for sure, VV makes some fine powders and generally some of the most consistent I've ever used.

Keep us updated WW!
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Last edited by SDGlock23; 10-23-2013 at 07:06..
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Old 10-23-2013, 13:20   #256
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Good advice all around

Thanks for the advice SD, good stuff. I am not sure I will get up as high velocity wise as you have achieved, that is some spicy meatballs right there.

The use of known calibration rounds on the chrony is a good idea. My chrony in general has been pretty consistent if I keep a close eye on how the light is hitting it as the day wears on.

I did have it set quite far away on these tests as the sun position required it. I think maybe it affected the results on the low side. It is also pretty nerve wracking shooting through the goal posts that far away.

I will get a chance to see what the seating depth differences might mean as I had to switch to XTPs for my current tests as I ran out of the RN 230gr FMJ's, the XTPs have to be seated much deeper. The shoulder brake jams into my lands on my 1911 if it sits too high above the case mouth.

I did get pretty good results from the N350. I am thinking the N105 may be a little slow for the fat case of the .45. I use it a lot in my hot 10mm loads, using 12.5gr as my SD/hunting load with a 180gr slug in that caliber. 3N38 might be the ultimate powder for the 45 Super in hotter loads. If you end up testing it, make sure you let us know. I have so many powders laying around, I decided I am going to use up everything I have before starting any new orders.

I want to start testing some WFNGC's and really appreciated your posts on the Bear Tooth's. I only saw one listed under the .45 Auto, were you buying the ones under the 45 LC listings?

Thanks again for all the advice.

Last edited by WeeWilly; 10-23-2013 at 14:06..
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Old 10-23-2013, 21:49   #257
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Unless you have a lot of Blue Dot and are attached to it I would ditch it for Super. It gets finicky at max loads (which are lower than Longshot, Power Pistol and 800x) and can spike dangerously in cold weather with max loads. I worked up a lot of Blue Dot loads in my stock G21 barrel and ended up abandoning it for the afore mentioned powders.

BTW, I just finished shooting a bunch of test loads into my new Clear Ballistics Gel. Way Cool!
I will work on a report but it may be a few days; there is a lot of info. Also I took video which probably isn't very good as I'm new to the skill. I also have to figure out how to edit it (IMovie pointers anyone?) to make it concise.

The short of it is that the 250gr .452 XTP is stellar as is the 185gr Barnes XPD (1210fps and 1475fps respectively). These were shot out of a G21 with LW fully supported barrel with compensator and 24# RSA.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:47   #258
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Originally Posted by Cycletroll View Post
Unless you have a lot of Blue Dot and are attached to it I would ditch it for Super. It gets finicky at max loads (which are lower than Longshot, Power Pistol and 800x) and can spike dangerously in cold weather with max loads. I worked up a lot of Blue Dot loads in my stock G21 barrel and ended up abandoning it for the afore mentioned powders.

BTW, I just finished shooting a bunch of test loads into my new Clear Ballistics Gel. Way Cool!
I will work on a report but it may be a few days; there is a lot of info. Also I took video which probably isn't very good as I'm new to the skill. I also have to figure out how to edit it (IMovie pointers anyone?) to make it concise.

The short of it is that the 250gr .452 XTP is stellar as is the 185gr Barnes XPD (1210fps and 1475fps respectively). These were shot out of a G21 with LW fully supported barrel with compensator and 24# RSA.
I have read others post similar issues with BD. I think Alliant actually pulled their load data with BD and 41 Mag because of something one of the ballisticians saw when testing that combination. I have never seen anything myself, although I admit to very little experience in .45 Super. I have a ton of experience with BD in other calibers like .44RM, .357Mag, 10mm, even 9mm Luger, with no adverse glitches.

I really look forward to your video. One of the things I like to understand is how bullets designed for a given caliber perform when pushed harder. I think if guys that like nuclear loading knew what was happening with their bullet of choice when pushed beyond design limits they may not be loading as hot.
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Old 10-24-2013, 20:41   #259
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Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
I have read others post similar issues with BD. I think Alliant actually pulled their load data with BD and 41 Mag because of something one of the ballisticians saw when testing that combination. I have never seen anything myself, although I admit to very little experience in .45 Super. I have a ton of experience with BD in other calibers like .44RM, .357Mag, 10mm, even 9mm Luger, with no adverse glitches.

I really look forward to your video. One of the things I like to understand is how bullets designed for a given caliber perform when pushed harder. I think if guys that like nuclear loading knew what was happening with their bullet of choice when pushed beyond design limits they may not be loading as hot.
Willy, your observation about design envelop is precisely why I never bought a 10mm. There are No bullets (other than hard cast) that can hold up to the velocity potential of the big 10mm case. I can exceed the structural integrity of most if not all .401 bullets loading hot in a strong, well-supported, properly sprung .40S&W. Usually in a smaller handier package.

.452 Bullets designed for .45 Colt and muzzle loaders are designed for the speeds you can get going in a .45 Super/.460 Rowland. Plus, they're just bigger in diameter, with more mass and just plain do more damage.

I have always been drawn to hot loaded .355-.357 bullets and of course .429-.452. I have some .40's but mostly don't care for it.

Interesting thing is that a 180gr .357 bullet at 1145fps penetrated exactly (22.5") the same as a 250gr .452 XTP; very similar wound profile just scaled down about 25%

I will post some pics of the gel block permanent cavities tomorrow. The video will take longer as I am a total newb to video processing/editing

PS, the 185gr Barnes XPD@1475 was quite impressive too! Huge initial permanent cavity and 20" of penetration and of course 100% wt. retention.
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Old 10-24-2013, 21:16   #260
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Willy, your observation about design envelop is precisely why I never bought a 10mm. There are No bullets (other than hard cast) that can hold up to the velocity potential of the big 10mm case. I can exceed the structural integrity of most if not all .401 bullets loading hot in a strong, well-supported, properly sprung .40S&W. Usually in a smaller handier package.

.452 Bullets designed for .45 Colt and muzzle loaders are designed for the speeds you can get going in a .45 Super/.460 Rowland. Plus, they're just bigger in diameter, with more mass and just plain do more damage.

I have always been drawn to hot loaded .355-.357 bullets and of course .429-.452. I have some .40's but mostly don't care for it.

Interesting thing is that a 180gr .357 bullet at 1145fps penetrated exactly (22.5") the same as a 250gr .452 XTP; very similar wound profile just scaled down about 25%

I will post some pics of the gel block permanent cavities tomorrow. The video will take longer as I am a total newb to video processing/editing

PS, the 185gr Barnes XPD@1475 was quite impressive too! Huge initial permanent cavity and 20" of penetration and of course 100% wt. retention.
I would probably sell my Model 29 if I could find any handgun that is as accurate and devastating. I can point shoot that darn gun almost as well as my best 1911 lining everything up real careful.

I use Barnes TTSX almost exclusively in my bolt hunting rifles, I need to get back around to some of their pistol bullets.

I wish I could help you with the video, but I am a complete luddite on such things as well. Can't wait to see it.

Last edited by WeeWilly; 10-24-2013 at 21:19..
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:01   #261
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I would probably sell my Model 29 if I could find any handgun that is as accurate and devastating. I can point shoot that darn gun almost as well as my best 1911 lining everything up real careful.

I use Barnes TTSX almost exclusively in my bolt hunting rifles, I need to get back around to some of their pistol bullets.

I wish I could help you with the video, but I am a complete luddite on such things as well. Can't wait to see it.
How about a Glock 30? Same exact size except potential for bigger bullets and more power and just as accurate. With a LW or KKM barrel and you can shoot .45 super+ Put a comp on it and you can shoot Rowland level loads.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:11   #262
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So here's some stills of the .45 Super(+) tests done this week. I used Clear Ballistic Gel (BB calibration of 3.2"). Testing conditions were at 6300' with temperatures in the low to mid 60's and dry. Didn't use denim because I know all these loads expand reliably and I'm really developing these for woods carry/hunting and primarily concerned with bullet toughness and penetration.
Test gun is Gen 3 Glock 21 With Lone Wolf (fully supported chamber) and a LW compensator and 24# RSA.The 21 Club

250gr (.452) Hornady XTP @ 1210fps:
The 21 Club
The 21 Club
The 21 Club
This load penetrated 22.5" in calibrated gel and made one of the longest permanent cavities I've seen in a handgun 1"+ wide by 11" long!

The 21 Club
This is the 1st of two 14" long Blocks. Bullet settled down to caliber size hole for the remaining 8.5" in the next block. Expanded diameter averaged about .68. Retained weight of 240gr.
This is not a max load and bullet seems like it can handle some more velocity. Will bump it up to 1250-1275 and see how penetration is affected. This is an accurate load and not too bad in recoil. Accuracy for three shots at 17yds:
The 21 Club

Last edited by Cycletroll; 10-25-2013 at 11:04.. Reason: added
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:07   #263
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How about a Glock 30? Same exact size except potential for bigger bullets and more power and just as accurate. With a LW or KKM barrel and you can shoot .45 super+ Put a comp on it and you can shoot Rowland level loads.
Sorry, I meant Model 29 as in .44RM Smith. It is the most accurate handgun I have ever shot, notwithstanding my old Smith Model 19.

I only use revolvers for hunting and really have not done much handgun hunting in quite a while.

My .45 Super loads have all been done in my G21 and 1911's.

Thanks for the photos. 1200fps for a 250gr slug is really hot stuff. Love the XTP, stout bullet.
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Old 10-25-2013, 13:19   #264
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Sorry, I meant Model 29 as in .44RM Smith. It is the most accurate handgun I have ever shot, notwithstanding my old Smith Model 19.
There is something about an old S&W revolver. Many people shoot them very well, including myself. Then again my old S&W in my collection I shoot well is a 22LR.
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Old 10-25-2013, 17:00   #265
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There is something about an old S&W revolver. Many people shoot them very well, including myself. Then again my old S&W in my collection I shoot well is a 22LR.

My old Model 19 was my most accurate handgun I ever owned. I was like Wyatt Erp with that gun. With my Model 29 nowadays, I am not as good, but I am not as good at anything as I was in the day when I used that 19.

I think the balance of this style gun makes a difference, maybe the lack the moving parts when the bullet is still in the barrel, also for my Model 29, the sight radius has to be a factor, it is pretty long.

Be that as it may, if headed to a gunfight, I wouldn't willfully pass up an autoloader with a full magazine.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:44   #266
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So here's some stills of the .45 Super(+) tests done this week. I used Clear Ballistic Gel (BB calibration of 3.2"). Testing conditions were at 6300' with temperatures in the low to mid 60's and dry. Didn't use denim because I know all these loads expand reliably and I'm really developing these for woods carry/hunting and primarily concerned with bullet toughness and penetration.
Test gun is Gen 3 Glock 21 With Lone Wolf (fully supported chamber) and a LW compensator and 24# RSA.The 21 Club

250gr (.452) Hornady XTP @ 1210fps:
The 21 Club
The 21 Club
The 21 Club
This load penetrated 22.5" in calibrated gel and made one of the longest permanent cavities I've seen in a handgun 1"+ wide by 11" long!

The 21 Club
This is the 1st of two 14" long Blocks. Bullet settled down to caliber size hole for the remaining 8.5" in the next block. Expanded diameter averaged about .68. Retained weight of 240gr.
This is not a max load and bullet seems like it can handle some more velocity. Will bump it up to 1250-1275 and see how penetration is affected. This is an accurate load and not too bad in recoil. Accuracy for three shots at 17yds:
The 21 Club
Good report CT! Everything you posted seems to match what I got with the 250gr XTP. Of course I don't have any ballistic gel, but I figured it would penetrate nice and deep and it looks like it did. It's good to see what it does in gel, that's a heck of permanent cavity it left behind!

Expansion at 1200 fps in the gel looks just like what I was getting through water, and to top it off, it looks like you're also getting some good accuracy out of it, that's a very nice looking 3 shot group.

I'd be interested in seeing what one running a little faster would do, you would likely gain expansion but I'm curios whether penetration would increase or decrease.
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Old 10-26-2013, 15:58   #267
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Thanks SD,

I'm going to drive it a bit faster, 1250-1275 or so. I'm guessing it will shed another 10gr of wt or so and penetrate another couple inches. The heavier XTP's designed for higher velocities don't seem to expand really radically; they just keep pushing back and shedding their edges.
I do want to maintain a very accurate load so that hits past 100 yards are feasible so the load velocity I end up with may be dictated by accuracy. I'm going to have this G21 milled to put a Trijicon RMR on it so I can make reliable hits to 200 yards. I've done this with a S&W 629 and would like the lighter weight and greater capacity of the .45 Super.
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Old 10-26-2013, 16:07   #268
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So here's some more .45 Super test results:

185gr Barnes XPD loaded in Win brass with Win LP and 800x powder

Same day as the above test: 6300', 65 deg.

Velocity out of Comped G21 with LW barrel: 1475 (893 ft. lbs)
Penetrated 20" in bare calibrated Clear Ballistics Gel

The 21 Club
The 21 Club
The 21 Club

The initial permanent cavity is wider than the 250gr XTP but is quite a bit shorter and overall penetration is less but still very impressive:
The 21 Club
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Old 10-26-2013, 22:46   #269
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A few more tests.

So I did a few more this morning.

The tests were with Blue Dot, Longshot, VV-N350 and VV-N105.

I used 22lb recoil springs with both guns, 5" 1911 and G21SF, otherwise they were stock configuration.

I used new Starline brass, Winchester LP, and a combo of PD 230 FMJ/RN and 230 XTP's.

The chrony was a little closer this time. The deeper seating depth of the XTP 230 made a noticeable difference in velocity. These slower powders seem to like a little tighter space to work in.

I was having one of the days with accuracy (on my part), so I will need to take the most promising loads back out again and see what was the load and what was me.

I have not done the spreadsheet input yet to get the actual averages, ES and SD's, so the numbers are averages done in my head. Not exact, but pretty close.

The VV-N350 had similar results to last time:

9.4gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - Stock G21 - 1058 fps
9.4gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - 5" 1911 - 1091 fps
9.6gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - Stock G21 - 1062 fps
9.6gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - 5" 1911 - 1108 fps
9.8gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - Stock G21 - 1080 fps
9.8gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - 5" 1911 - 1124 fps

The brass looked fine from both guns, I may go a little higher next time.

VV-N105:

11.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1026 fps
11.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1057 fps
11.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1036 fps
11.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1089 fps
11.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1047 fps
11.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1110 fps
11.8gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1074 fps
11.8gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1138fps

The brass looked fine from both guns, I may go a little higher next time. I did have a couple of mis-feed's with the 1911 in the 11.8 string, I need to test this a little more to figure out what is going on. When I get up above about 1135fps with the 230gr slug, thing started getting weird feed wise in the 1911 using N105.

I was getting some serious dents in the case from my ejection port using the VV-N105, so much for my fancy ejection port contour, combined with the feed issues, I may fool with a few more spring and see if I can tune the hotter N105 loads to be a little easier on the brass and improve feed reliability.

Longshot:

9.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1070 fps
9.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1119 fps
9.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1101 fps
9.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1138 fps
9.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1109 fps
9.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1167 fps

The brass looked good and feed was fine in all test and both guns. The SD's are going to calc out low with these loads, accuracy was excellent on an otherwise lousy day for me behind the trigger.

Blue Dot:

12.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1088 fps
12.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1150 fps
12.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1091 fps
12.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1169 fps

The brass looked good and feed was fine in all test and both guns. The SD's were really low in the 12.6 test with Blue Dot (something that I usually don't see with this powder). I have not calculated it yet, but the ES was like 9 fps, so the SD's are going to be really small.

Some generalizations I am coming to with this caliber is more barrel generally makes a big difference. The stock G21 barrel just isn't long enough to get these big slugs going with the slow powders required to get the most out of things. There was a noticeable jump in velocity with the 5" 1911 over the stock Glock barrel, only .4" increase had an outsized impact on performance on most powders. I forgot my KKM 6" barrel for my G21, but I suspect the velocity jumps between sizes will keep going up for a while as length is added.

Another thing I noticed (thanks to SD for that insight) is the seating depth of the XTP (deeper so they would chamber in my 1911), really helps with velocity, again with these slower powders less free space makes an outsized impact not only on velocity but consistency of velocities. I plan to do some back to back tests with seating depth to see how much and with which powders seating depth is most important.

When I get the actual averages, SD and ES's I will post them as a revision.

Some fun.

Warning: you should always work up your loads in your own gun. Using the above loads in your gun may not be safe. I use normal load workups with all powders, there are NO safe shortcuts!

Last edited by WeeWilly; 10-26-2013 at 22:58..
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:07   #270
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Originally Posted by Cycletroll View Post
So here's some more .45 Super test results:

185gr Barnes XPD loaded in Win brass with Win LP and 800x powder

Same day as the above test: 6300', 65 deg.

Velocity out of Comped G21 with LW barrel: 1475 (893 ft. lbs)
Penetrated 20" in bare calibrated Clear Ballistics Gel

The 21 Club
The 21 Club
The 21 Club

The initial permanent cavity is wider than the 250gr XTP but is quite a bit shorter and overall penetration is less but still very impressive:
The 21 Club
Looks like another solid load there CT. That's a real good velocity too for such a long bullet. I don't have one to compare it too, but the 185gr XTPs are quite short, so I'm impressed that you got 1475 from the considerable longer Barnes bullet.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:14   #271
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So I did a few more this morning.

The tests were with Blue Dot, Longshot, VV-N350 and VV-N105.

I used 22lb recoil springs with both guns, 5" 1911 and G21SF, otherwise they were stock configuration.

I used new Starline brass, Winchester LP, and a combo of PD 230 FMJ/RN and 230 XTP's.

The chrony was a little closer this time. The deeper seating depth of the XTP 230 made a noticeable difference in velocity. These slower powders seem to like a little tighter space to work in.

I was having one of the days with accuracy (on my part), so I will need to take the most promising loads back out again and see what was the load and what was me.

I have not done the spreadsheet input yet to get the actual averages, ES and SD's, so the numbers are averages done in my head. Not exact, but pretty close.

The VV-N350 had similar results to last time:

9.4gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - Stock G21 - 1058 fps
9.4gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - 5" 1911 - 1091 fps
9.6gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - Stock G21 - 1062 fps
9.6gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - 5" 1911 - 1108 fps
9.8gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - Stock G21 - 1080 fps
9.8gr - PD 230gr FMJ - 1.265" - 5" 1911 - 1124 fps

The brass looked fine from both guns, I may go a little higher next time.

VV-N105:

11.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1026 fps
11.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1057 fps
11.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1036 fps
11.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1089 fps
11.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1047 fps
11.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1110 fps
11.8gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1074 fps
11.8gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1138fps

The brass looked fine from both guns, I may go a little higher next time. I did have a couple of mis-feed's with the 1911 in the 11.8 string, I need to test this a little more to figure out what is going on. When I get up above about 1135fps with the 230gr slug, thing started getting weird feed wise in the 1911 using N105.

I was getting some serious dents in the case from my ejection port using the VV-N105, so much for my fancy ejection port contour, combined with the feed issues, I may fool with a few more spring and see if I can tune the hotter N105 loads to be a little easier on the brass and improve feed reliability.

Longshot:

9.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1070 fps
9.2gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1119 fps
9.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1101 fps
9.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1138 fps
9.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1109 fps
9.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1167 fps

The brass looked good and feed was fine in all test and both guns. The SD's are going to calc out low with these loads, accuracy was excellent on an otherwise lousy day for me behind the trigger.

Blue Dot:

12.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1088 fps
12.4gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1150 fps
12.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - Stock G21 - 1091 fps
12.6gr - XTP 230gr - 1.235" - 5" 1911 - 1169 fps

The brass looked good and feed was fine in all test and both guns. The SD's were really low in the 12.6 test with Blue Dot (something that I usually don't see with this powder). I have not calculated it yet, but the ES was like 9 fps, so the SD's are going to be really small.

Some generalizations I am coming to with this caliber is more barrel generally makes a big difference. The stock G21 barrel just isn't long enough to get these big slugs going with the slow powders required to get the most out of things. There was a noticeable jump in velocity with the 5" 1911 over the stock Glock barrel, only .4" increase had an outsized impact on performance on most powders. I forgot my KKM 6" barrel for my G21, but I suspect the velocity jumps between sizes will keep going up for a while as length is added.

Another thing I noticed (thanks to SD for that insight) is the seating depth of the XTP (deeper so they would chamber in my 1911), really helps with velocity, again with these slower powders less free space makes an outsized impact not only on velocity but consistency of velocities. I plan to do some back to back tests with seating depth to see how much and with which powders seating depth is most important.

When I get the actual averages, SD and ES's I will post them as a revision.

Some fun.

Warning: you should always work up your loads in your own gun. Using the above loads in your gun may not be safe. I use normal load workups with all powders, there are NO safe shortcuts!
Good write up WW, next time remember to bring the 6" KKM along! When I used to shoot .45 Super from a 4.6" KKM G21, I would get some dented up brass when the 230's starting getting around 1100+. That's one of the reasons I went to a comped barrel so that it would help to slow the slide velocity down, which in turn doesn't bang up the brass like it did before.
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Old 10-28-2013, 16:45   #272
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
Good write up WW, next time remember to bring the 6" KKM along! When I used to shoot .45 Super from a 4.6" KKM G21, I would get some dented up brass when the 230's starting getting around 1100+. That's one of the reasons I went to a comped barrel so that it would help to slow the slide velocity down, which in turn doesn't bang up the brass like it did before.
Yeah, I think I have found the limits of the stock configuration. Along with bringing the 6" barrel along to see what these big mothers can do with more barrel, I will bring the heaviest spring I have also. I have never been a big fan of comps, so it is looking like I will have to be stopping here pretty quick in my quest for more. I have always avoided that 24lb spring because for whatever reason it seems to really transfer the recoil. I do have to say, on my all steel 1911 even the front and back strap checkering starts to feel unkind when I was getting into the upper reaches. I guess you can't be pushing 700 ft/lbs without a little recoil.

My goal was finding a good 1100 fps load for the 230's on my G21SF and also one for the 1911's. I think I have a few candidates.

Time to get on the notification list for some more Starline brass.

Now I just have to decide how many G20/G29's to sell...

Last edited by WeeWilly; 10-28-2013 at 16:50..
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:56   #273
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Whenever you get a chance, pick up some 800x, I think you'll be pleased with the results. From the more "sane" loads of a 230gr @ 1100 fps to the warmer 230gr at over 1300 fps, it's always been very consistent for me in the .45 Super.

I can understand not liking comps, and one idea that I had considered (and still may) is to take a 6" barrel and have it ported, it sticks out of the barrel anyways and I know there are places that will cut you a few ports in the end of it. Not really needed at the mid level loadings, but could likely help if you ever decide to go any warmer with your loads. With that said however, a 230gr at 1100+ is still potent medicine.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:48   #274
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
Whenever you get a chance, pick up some 800x, I think you'll be pleased with the results. From the more "sane" loads of a 230gr @ 1100 fps to the warmer 230gr at over 1300 fps, it's always been very consistent for me in the .45 Super.

I can not liking comps, and one idea that I had considered (and still may) is to take a 6" barrel and have it ported, it sticks out of the barrel anyways and I know there are places that will cut you a few ports in the end of it. Not really needed at the mid level loadings, but could likely help if you ever decide to go any warmer with your loads. With that said however, a 230gr at 1100+ is still potent medicine.
+1!!

800x is excellent for mid size cases and heavy loads. Very clean, consistent and accurate.
Doesn't meter for crap but usually with high tests loads one is hand weighing every charge anyway; at least I do
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:47   #275
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I have a part used bottle of 800x that I had experimented with in my 10mm loads. I will put it into the rotation for my Super tests.

In my 180gr 10mm tests it seems to do best in overall performance (notwithstanding its metering characteristics which make it a novelty powder from my perspective).

In my 180gr 10mm tests, I found I could do everything pretty much with Longshot as I could 800x and get better metering. The only difference I found performance wise between the two is 800x did seem to burn much more cleanly and was easier on the cases (less bulge, extractor rash, etc.), which is still a mystery to me why that was the case.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up guys, I will give it a try with the Supers, some fun.
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