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Old 08-26-2013, 09:17   #201
SDGlock23
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Originally Posted by Cycletroll View Post
SD,

Thanks for the input. I did manage to find some 250 XTP's. Should have them before the end of the week. Your result of 5 jugs and .65-.70 in water correlates exactly to what I'm looking for.
I've driven the 200 Gold Dots a bit. Are ideal at 1100 (.85), start looking like the infamous octopus meteorite at about 1200.

I'm going to do wetpack tests with all of these once I get a good cross section but I suspect that the 250 XTP will do perfectly.

BTW, the 260 Speer has a long bearing surface, seats deep in the case (bulging it a bit) and doesn't expand at all at 950-1000. It really seems like a bullet best suited to .454 Casull velocities.

I'll let you know how the 185 Barnes work out.
I suspected as much with the 200gr Gold Dot. I didn't set high expectations for it since it's .45 ACP designed bullet. Works great with the ACP, maybe not so much with more velocity behind it. I did run a 200gr XTP to around 1350 and it held together somewhat well, a few small shards of lead came off it but otherwise intact and large expansion for an XTP. Penetration was 2 jugs...ouch. Explosive but certainly not something I would want for field work.

Thanks for the heads up on the 260gr Speer also. I'll just narrow my search down for the 240gr Sierra, and you never know, a box of them might just show up somewhere...eventually.
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:57   #202
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
I suspected as much with the 200gr Gold Dot. I didn't set high expectations for it since it's .45 ACP designed bullet. Works great with the ACP, maybe not so much with more velocity behind it. I did run a 200gr XTP to around 1350 and it held together somewhat well, a few small shards of lead came off it but otherwise intact and large expansion for an XTP. Penetration was 2 jugs...ouch. Explosive but certainly not something I would want for field work.

Thanks for the heads up on the 260gr Speer also. I'll just narrow my search down for the 240gr Sierra, and you never know, a box of them might just show up somewhere...eventually.
Ya, based on what I've found I think the 250 XTP is going to be the best balance of expansion penetration and weight. Glad I found some
I have found anecdotal claims that the Nosler and Sierra JHP's are not that tough but the 150gr Nosler .40's I pushed to 1400 did quite well so who knows?
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:13   #203
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I've been reading and pretty impressed with you guys and your knowledge in this interesting subject. Let me just ask a simple question because I'm new to all this and still learning. Is the 45 Super out of the G21 pretty accurate at 25 yards? 50 yards? (all other things considered, shooter skill, etc)
I'm debating whether to modify for 45 Super or 40 Super. I just somehow have a feeling the 40S is more accurate because of the smaller projectile but I could be completely wrong.
Hey Roger, thanks for the interest.
As to accuracy: my personal experience after handloading for Glocks and pistols in many calibers for many years is that the .45 cal Glocks and the .357 Sig Glocks are the most inherently accurate. In general Glocks are not match grade guns but will shoot better than most people can hold.
I have had three shot groups off the bench at 30yds of 3/4" with both my G21 and my G31 with heavy for caliber high pressure hand loads.
I've never loaded .40 Super but am turned off on the caliber for several reasons: 1st, there are very few bullet designs that will tolerate the velocity the necked .40 caliber cases are capable, 2nd: I've been told it is a cartridge that has a lot of muzzle blast. It's a bottleneck cartridge that essentially does what 10mm does in a more laborious to load case. 3rd: For a G21 platform the .45 Super/Rowland just stomps the crap out of those puny little .401 bullets LOL

I use the Super/Rowland platform out of a Glock for a tough, lightweight field gun for hunting. I may end up in the position to need a finishing shot on deer, elk, antelope, cougar, or black bear. I feel much more comfortable lobbing .45 cal bullets in the 230-300gr weight for those size animals. If one graphs the ballistics of the Rowland vs pretty much any other lightweight pistol round it hits a lot harder at 100-200 yds than any of them. Heavy bullets do more work at lower velocities.
I am in the process of milling the slide on my G21 to install a Trijicon RMR red dot so that I can reliably make hits past 100 yards. Using a 3MOA dot on a S&W 629 I can make reliable hits at 150yds; I have no doubt I will be able to do the same with the G21.
Hope this helps.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:04   #204
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Originally Posted by Roger G23 View Post
I've been reading and pretty impressed with you guys and your knowledge in this interesting subject. Let me just ask a simple question because I'm new to all this and still learning. Is the 45 Super out of the G21 pretty accurate at 25 yards? 50 yards? (all other things considered, shooter skill, etc)
I'm debating whether to modify for 45 Super or 40 Super. I just somehow have a feeling the 40S is more accurate because of the smaller projectile but I could be completely wrong.
I find the G21 to be highly accurate as a whole, but as you know, peoples skill levels are different and someone else may not find it as accurate. I would say if you're familiar enough with the trigger system on a Glock to be accurate with it, then you will most likely find the G21 to be a sufficiently accurate for hunting applications. If you were spend the extra cash to get something like a fitted BarSto barrel (expensive) then that would also give you an edge in accuracy, although in stock form I think it works well as is.

As for which is more accurate, the .40 Super or .45 Super, I'm clueless! I have no doubt the .40 Super is accurate, but I don't know that it would have an advantage over the .45 Super in that regard or not. Unless you ran into some issues of a barrel not stabilizing a heavier bullet, I doubt you could tell much difference between them accuracy wise.

My two cents is that the .40 Super is an excellent cartridge, but maybe too good for it's own good. The downside, to me, of the .40 Super is that it relies on .40 S&W bullets and in turn drives them way too fast for optimal performance. Take UW's .40 Super 135gr JHP for example, even at 500 ft-lbs (.40 S&W) the bullet is already fragmenting. So what make a person think that at almost twice that energy (900 ft-lbs) the same bullet is going to do anything but essentially explode on contact? If there were good.400" JHP bullets to withstand the velocity the .40 Super dishes out, that would be great but they don't exist. The 220gr .40 Super would penetrate deeply, but a .45 hardcast is going to penetrate through and through and still cut a bigger hole.

The advantage that the .45 Super and 460 Rowland has is their ability to utilize .45 cal revolver bullets, which are designed to handle the energies that the .45 Super and 460 Rowland can dish out. This is what I think give them the distinct advantage over the .40 Super.

I hope others chime in with their opinion as well, I'd like to hear it.
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Old 08-26-2013, 16:06   #205
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I was just thinking that if the .40 Super had actually been a .41 Super and designed to shoot .410" bullets that it would work much better. .41 Magnum bullets such as 170gr JHPs, 210gr XTP's, and 230-265gr hardcasts could be used and would be able to withstand the velocity/energy the cartridge offers.

I like the idea of a ".41 Super" 210gr XTP at ~1400 fps better than the .40 Super 200gr XTP at 1400 fps. Instead of a 165gr at 1600 fps you could have a 170gr at 1600 fps, or in place of a 220gr at 1350 you could have a 230gr at 1350, or maybe a 265gr hardcast at ~1200-1250 fps.
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Old 08-26-2013, 16:18   #206
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I was just thinking that if the .40 Super had actually been a .41 Super and designed to shoot .410" bullets that it would work much better. .41 Magnum bullets such as 170gr JHPs, 210gr XTP's, and 230-265gr hardcasts could be used and would be able to withstand the velocity/energy the cartridge offers.

I like the idea of a ".41 Super" 210gr XTP at ~1400 fps better than the .40 Super 200gr XTP at 1400 fps. Instead of a 165gr at 1600 fps you could have a 170gr at 1600 fps, or in place of a 220gr at 1350 you could have a 230gr at 1350, or maybe a 265gr hardcast at ~1200-1250 fps.
I'm going to be shooting these as soon as I receive my LWD 6'' 45-40S conversion barrel, 24#Wolff RSA and Wolff ex.pwr. mag springs for two G21 10 round mags. Hopefully, these hard cast rounds are tough enough to withstand the fast flight.

Actually, the more I think about it...may be I should just keep my G21 as a dedicated 460R/45Super/45ACP gun. Because I can imagine constantly breaking the locktite seal on the 460R barrel threads, just to put in a LWD 45-40Super barrel to shoot 40 Super, might damage the threads over time. What do you think?

http://www.underwoodammo.com/40Super...etboxof50.aspx
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Old 08-26-2013, 21:23   #207
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Originally Posted by Cycletroll View Post
Hey Roger, thanks for the interest.
As to accuracy: my personal experience after handloading for Glocks and pistols in many calibers for many years is that the .45 cal Glocks and the .357 Sig Glocks are the most inherently accurate. In general Glocks are not match grade guns but will shoot better than most people can hold.
I have had three shot groups off the bench at 30yds of 3/4" with both my G21 and my G31 with heavy for caliber high pressure hand loads.
I've never loaded .40 Super but am turned off on the caliber for several reasons: 1st, there are very few bullet designs that will tolerate the velocity the necked .40 caliber cases are capable, 2nd: I've been told it is a cartridge that has a lot of muzzle blast. It's a bottleneck cartridge that essentially does what 10mm does in a more laborious to load case. 3rd: For a G21 platform the .45 Super/Rowland just stomps the crap out of those puny little .401 bullets LOL

I use the Super/Rowland platform out of a Glock for a tough, lightweight field gun for hunting. I may end up in the position to need a finishing shot on deer, elk, antelope, cougar, or black bear. I feel much more comfortable lobbing .45 cal bullets in the 230-300gr weight for those size animals. If one graphs the ballistics of the Rowland vs pretty much any other lightweight pistol round it hits a lot harder at 100-200 yds than any of them. Heavy bullets do more work at lower velocities.
I am in the process of milling the slide on my G21 to install a Trijicon RMR red dot so that I can reliably make hits past 100 yards. Using a 3MOA dot on a S&W 629 I can make reliable hits at 150yds; I have no doubt I will be able to do the same with the G21.
Hope this helps.
Thanks. That does help a lot. I just decided tonight to order my 460 Rowland conversion kit! I'll return the LWD 45 threaded barrel and LWD compensator I was going to shoot 45 Super out of.
I'm going 460 Rowland!
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Old 08-27-2013, 16:46   #208
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Roger, if you're going to hand load no need to return what you have. You can load to Rowland levels in .45 Super brass. The internal (powder capacity) dimensions are the same. Then you can also shoot standard .45 ACP in your barrel.
The only reason to buy a Rowland chambered barrel is if you're going to be buying factory ammo only. Frankly that really limits your choices and is quite expensive.

The Lone Wolf barrel and comp along with 24# recoil spring is what I use in my G21. Works great!
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Old 08-27-2013, 19:43   #209
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Roger, if you're going to hand load no need to return what you have. You can load to Rowland levels in .45 Super brass. The internal (powder capacity) dimensions are the same. Then you can also shoot standard .45 ACP in your barrel.
The only reason to buy a Rowland chambered barrel is if you're going to be buying factory ammo only. Frankly that really limits your choices and is quite expensive.

The Lone Wolf barrel and comp along with 24# recoil spring is what I use in my G21. Works great!
I am going with factory ammo only. Currently, I'm not a reloader. I will save all 45 Super brass though as I continue to learn and perhaps will be in the future.
The 460Rowland intrigues me as it is truly .44Magnum power. My research is showing I can shoot 45Super and 45ACP out of the 460R barrel. (weaker 45acp may require a lighter spring) I like these options. Once, I discovered 460R ammo comparably priced to 45Super, I was interested. You're right, 460R set-up will initially cost about $125 more than LWD barrel, LWD comp, Wolff RSA set-up...but going with the most powerful and "Ammo Test" YouTube videos demonstrate how incredibly effective that 460 comp is! He said it doesn't blow stuff back in your face. (unlike LWD comp. according to him)
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Old 08-27-2013, 20:48   #210
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The 460Rowland intrigues me as it is truly .44Magnum power.
Not really. Then again, I reload and my 44mag is at full 44mag levels.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:13   #211
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Not really. Then again, I reload and my 44mag is at full 44mag levels.
True! I load for .44 mag too and I can push heavier stuff faster than with Rowland (especially if you are shooting a Ruger-I prefer Smiths and am quite happy with the power level)

Truth is that Rowland is mid level .44 mag comparable and in a lighter, higher capacity platform.


Roger- you can shoot regular dimension .45 in a Roland barrel; doesn't mean you should. The ACP and Super case are shorter which means they won't headspace on the case mouth in a Rowland barrel but rather relies on the extractor to maintain headspace. Reliability can suffer and more importantly bullet jump can cause excessive leading which can elevate pressures which can cause kaboom. If you are going to shoot the shorter cases in your Rowland barrel I highly recommend you keep it to ACP pressure levels with jacket bullets. Lead hard cast at Super levels could cause problems. It's probably not as risky as shooting .40 in a 10mm barrel (much higher pressure round with worse setback problems) but it's still not ideal.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:54   #212
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True! I load for .44 mag too and I can push heavier stuff faster than with Rowland (especially if you are shooting a Ruger-I prefer Smiths and am quite happy with the power level)

Truth is that Rowland is mid level .44 mag comparable and in a lighter, higher capacity platform.


Roger- you can shoot regular dimension .45 in a Roland barrel; doesn't mean you should. The ACP and Super case are shorter which means they won't headspace on the case mouth in a Rowland barrel but rather relies on the extractor to maintain headspace. Reliability can suffer and more importantly bullet jump can cause excessive leading which can elevate pressures which can cause kaboom. If you are going to shoot the shorter cases in your Rowland barrel I highly recommend you keep it to ACP pressure levels with jacket bullets. Lead hard cast at Super levels could cause problems. It's probably not as risky as shooting .40 in a 10mm barrel (much higher pressure round with worse setback problems) but it's still not ideal.
Thank you so much! In all my research thusfar, I have not come across these important facts. Much obliged.
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Old 08-30-2013, 18:59   #213
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This is a heavy 44 load.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...ct_detail&p=54

I cast a longer one of these for Rug. RH AND SRH and the Dan Wesson,
.5'' nose.
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Old 08-30-2013, 23:01   #214
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Already having the Lone Wolf long slide and long barrel for my G21, I decided to get another guide rod and the 24lb spring. Ordered some of BB 255gr cast from Midway to try it out. I also have the 10mm conversion barrel for this gun and the .22 conversion. Should make another nice addition to the set up to be able to shoot the .45 Super as well. This gun has also had a grip reduction from Robar.
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Old 08-31-2013, 11:44   #215
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Already having the Lone Wolf long slide and long barrel for my G21, I decided to get another guide rod and the 24lb spring. Ordered some of BB 255gr cast from Midway to try it out. I also have the 10mm conversion barrel for this gun and the .22 conversion. Should make another nice addition to the set up to be able to shoot the .45 Super as well. This gun has also had a grip reduction from Robar.
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Nice John, That is a Very versatile setup you have there! Nicely fitted to the case too!
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:48   #216
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Does anybody have stats for the pressure levels for the typical 45 Super loads, such as 185 grain @ 1300 fps and 230 grain @ 1100 fps? I know that the listed maximum pressure for 45 Super is 28,000 psi.
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:05   #217
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hope this helps

pressure levels for the 45acp,super and 460r,

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41


45 ACP, all bullet weights

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/de...Source=Hodgdon


45 ACP +P, all bullet weights

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/de...Source=Hodgdon


460 Rowland, all bullet weights

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/de...Powder&Source=
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:38   #218
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With deer season coming upon us, I'm wondering what to take into the woods this year. I didn't get anything last year, and only got to hunt part of one day. A guy who when with us fell and broke his leg so that cut things short. I've been going over my data, and I think I'm going to take the .45 Super out this year.

I narrowed it down initially to either a 230gr XTP at roughly 1200 fps (Hornady rates them for up to 1250 fps and I have a good Power Pistol load that hovers right around 1200 fps), 275gr Hunters Supply hardcast at 1175-1200 fps, a 250gr XTP at 1250+ or the 255gr Beartooth at 1250+. The wider meplat, heavy bullet weight and good velocity is why I think the 255gr BT will be just the ticket In 10mm I have a good recipe for a 200gr WFNGC Beartooth that will consistently average 1270 fps from the G20, but it's hard to pass up a 255gr .452" going the same speed.

I've got some loaded up and Lord willing I hope to go out this coming weekend and check for any accuracy issues, although I don't expect any. I have a few more recipes loaded up to try also. I was torn between the G21 .45 Super or the G20 10mm, or the G23 with some warm loads...decisions decisions.
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Old 09-10-2013, 13:51   #219
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With deer season coming upon us, I'm wondering what to take into the woods this year. I didn't get anything last year, and only got to hunt part of one day. A guy who when with us fell and broke his leg so that cut things short. I've been going over my data, and I think I'm going to take the .45 Super out this year.

I narrowed it down initially to either a 230gr XTP at roughly 1200 fps (Hornady rates them for up to 1250 fps and I have a good Power Pistol load that hovers right around 1200 fps), 275gr Hunters Supply hardcast at 1175-1200 fps, a 250gr XTP at 1250+ or the 255gr Beartooth at 1250+. The wider meplat, heavy bullet weight and good velocity is why I think the 255gr BT will be just the ticket In 10mm I have a good recipe for a 200gr WFNGC Beartooth that will consistently average 1270 fps from the G20, but it's hard to pass up a 255gr .452" going the same speed.

I've got some loaded up and Lord willing I hope to go out this coming weekend and check for any accuracy issues, although I don't expect any. I have a few more recipes loaded up to try also. I was torn between the G21 .45 Super or the G20 10mm, or the G23 with some warm loads...decisions decisions.
I'd vote for the 250XTP in case you hit bone or a shoulder. The 230XTP is kinda fragile at those speeds.
You might also consider a Barnes XPD @1400ish. It's a total lazer and I'm getting 1"groups @20yds off the hood of my truck. Tough bullet that always expands and I can't help but think that with much higher speeds it will create a big hydrostatic "hit" and then the petals will fold back and the post will sail through a couple more feet of critter.
It's what I'll be carrying in my G30 on my antelope hunt for finishers.
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Old 09-11-2013, 11:38   #220
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Here are above mentioned 4 loads loaded up next to each other. L-R it's the 230gr XTp, 250gr XTP, 255gr WFNPB and the 275gr Hunters Supply. I like my 300gr load but I don't think I need quite that much bullet on deer.

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I will look into that XPD bullet you mentioned Cycletroll, I've been intrigued by the all copper bullets but have yet to take the bait and try any. What weight XPB are you shooting?
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