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Old 05-21-2015, 10:18   #1
danbocog
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Bad Winchester SP Primers

A few months ago a GTer posted photos of badly tarnished Win. Primers. I had just a few weeks prior to his post had picked up 5,000 of the first win. primers that I had every bought. After seeing his post I inspected several sleeves of 100 and noticed that mine were shiny to very dark in the same sleeve. When I first loaded the primers I had several failures to fire. Blamed it on the 4 lb. striker spring that had I installed in my G22. Replaced the factory 6 lb. spring.
Yesterday I fired 200 rds. and had 7 failures to fire. Kept these rounds an loaded them again. four fired on the second try, two fired on the third try and one fired on the fourth. The round that required four strikes was literally cratered from the striker.
All of the cartridges were inspected before the additional attempts to fire. Primers were seated level and flush with the case. These do not appear to be old stock as the outside box and all internal packaging is like new.
Anyone else having similar problems. Lot number on outside of individual sleeves is HGL393G
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:53   #2
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I've never used Winchester primers, primarily because of the things I read in this forum about them.

One guy said, "When I see a store only has Winchester primers, I react the same way as if they have no primers..... I don't buy any".

Complaints have been that they get crushed during installation as they're not uniform in shape? And of course, "they don't fire".
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Old 05-21-2015, 13:37   #3
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I'll use them for practice, but I wouldn't think of using them in a match. Winchester primers have ruined a lot of thousand dollar weekends for lots of guys. Seems like their QC went South about five years ago. I used to use them, but in the last five years I've had failures at a rate of about 1 in 100, on average.
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Old 05-21-2015, 14:48   #4
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Winchester primers have gone south a long time ago, more than 5 years ago. I have had better luck with Wolf primers than Winchester. But then I only use Wolf primers in practice. For matches Federal primers. Even then I have come across two Federal bad primers. One no anvil and one no compound.
Primers need to be seated where they are seated on the web not even or flush with the base of the case.
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Old 05-21-2015, 17:21   #5
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I used to load Winchester exclusively. I started running in to all sorts of QA issues and finally gave up. If they were all that was available I would use them, but with other choices, they are last on my list.
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Old 05-21-2015, 17:44   #6
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Winchester Bad

Had been very happy with the CCI primers that I had used since I started reloading. In my area primers are as scarce as pistol powders so they were bought because it was all that was available.
Should of known better. 90% of the time that I have a case to jam as it is inserted into the shell plate it is Winchester or GFl.
The case heads are out of round. I don't usually sort brass by headstamp, but it may save enough aggravation to make it worthwhile.
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:42   #7
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When I walk into a gun shop and they have a wall with 50,000 winchester primers and only winchester primers that shop is out of primers. SJ 40
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Old 05-22-2015, 07:24   #8
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There seems to be a consensus that Win. primers are to be avoided if possible by those that responded. I have also noted problems with Win. brass.
I have not found any Win 231 powder in about three years and for a long time it was my go to powder for light 40 S&W target/match loads. I have standing orders at several LGS and Gun Show vendors for four to eight lbs. if it becomes available.
Has poor quality control also affected their powder?
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Old 05-22-2015, 07:47   #9
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I prize Win brass and love W231.
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Old 05-22-2015, 08:10   #10
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Greeeaaaaat. I haven't bought Win primers for a few years. Never any issues in the past, but did observe them to be a bit inconsistently sized and shaped. Last week I bought a brick. Impulsively. Not sure why since I didn't really NEED sp primers. Of course I went ahead and loaded some match ammo. Should I be concerned?
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Old 05-22-2015, 08:28   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danbocog View Post
Had been very happy with the CCI primers that I had used since I started reloading. In my area primers are as scarce as pistol powders so they were bought because it was all that was available.
Should of known better. 90% of the time that I have a case to jam as it is inserted into the shell plate it is Winchester or GFl.
The case heads are out of round. I don't usually sort brass by headstamp, but it may save enough aggravation to make it worthwhile.
What? Are you saying you're having problems with Winchester BRASS?

You're the first I've ever heard with that complaint. Winchester primers, yes. But not their brass. That would be my match brass, and Federal primers match primers.

I've not been reloading in the past two years, not sure if something has changed... but 2009 through 2012 I was shooting ~15,000 rounds a year and never had the first problem with WIN stamped brass.
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Old 05-22-2015, 09:05   #12
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I have used Winchester primers for 30 years, still have some of the old silver ones that came in the white box, all work fine.

If I ever do have a problem with any I would contact Winchester and have them swapped out, first thing.
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Old 05-22-2015, 09:17   #13
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Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Greeeaaaaat. I haven't bought Win primers for a few years. Never any issues in the past, but did observe them to be a bit inconsistently sized and shaped. Last week I bought a brick. Impulsively. Not sure why since I didn't really NEED sp primers. Of course I went ahead and loaded some match ammo. Should I be concerned?
As much trouble as I had with them in the past, I would not use them in a match. Practice yes.
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Old 05-22-2015, 10:19   #14
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When I started to use the Win. SP primers, unlike the CCI primers I found that they were much more difficult to pick up. The primer fill tube had to be held perfectly vertical and centered over the primer. Using a 10X magnifier I examined a CCI and the Win. primers and noticed that the CCI had a more rounded dome. I considered this to be a minor annoyance until the misfires occurred.

Ron59, yes the culprit is Win. about 75% of the time. The case can usually be pushed by hand into the shell plate and continue. This is infrequent, only maybe one or two per 1,000 rounds. I pull the case at station No, 3 and inspect it. These cases are set aside and finish loading. I then seat bullet and complete the round and drop in case gauge. This is when I noticed that the case heads are slightly out of round. I have only recently started to use a Lee bulge buster die to salvage my Glockedup brass. I then take loaded round and run it back thru the bulge buster. I mark the case head so that I can discard after the next firing. Some of my 40 S&W brass has probably been through 25 or more loadings and could be 25 years old. I pickup all range brass and may have gotten some brass from someone that has hot loaded and distorted the case heads. Winchester is still the single most troublesome case for me.

Last edited by danbocog; 05-22-2015 at 10:22.. Reason: correct spelling
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Old 05-22-2015, 13:19   #15
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Do you have grease under the (Station 1 locator?)
Just shoot those rounds. I dont think I have ever heard of anyone using a Bulge Buster on loaded rounds. I dont know if it would do the same thing as running them back in a sizer die with the decapping pin removed or not. It does not work. A good way to get setback.
I loaded thousands of 40 rounds all range pickup and all fired in Glocks and never used or needed a bulge buster. Also 9mm, 45acp or 45 gap.
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Old 05-22-2015, 14:45   #16
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It is the rim of the case that is ever so slightly out of round. The resizing die cannot reach the rim. The bulge buster pushes the case from the bottom up thru the die. The bullet is not in contact with the die, so no setback. The push thru pin is only slightly smaller than the case so detonation of the primer is unlikely.
I purchased a Lee single stage press and bulge buster because of the high percentage of my brass [20-25%] would not go into the case gauge. The bulge buster is just the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die with crimping portion removed. The bulge buster is now just part of my preloading process. I now only spot check finished cartridges rather than all with the case gauge. The press operates so much smoother with this method as the sizing die on press only has to decap the primer.
Dillon no longer recommends grease under the station one locator, just keep it clean and free of powder residue.
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Old 05-22-2015, 17:08   #17
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It is the rim of the case that is ever so slightly out of round. The resizing die cannot reach the rim. The bulge buster pushes the case from the bottom up thru the die. The bullet is not in contact with the die, so no setback. The push thru pin is only slightly smaller than the case so detonation of the primer is unlikely.
I purchased a Lee single stage press and bulge buster because of the high percentage of my brass [20-25%] would not go into the case gauge. The bulge buster is just the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die with crimping portion removed. The bulge buster is now just part of my preloading process. I now only spot check finished cartridges rather than all with the case gauge. The press operates so much smoother with this method as the sizing die on press only has to decap the primer.
Dillon no longer recommends grease under the station one locator, just keep it clean and free of powder residue.
I know what a bulge buster does. And that it is just a FCD die. Cases that case gauge I have found will still fire in a Glock. Unless you forget to remove the bell on the case. Only spot checking rounds tells you nothing. You have to do every one. I only check match ammo. Waste of time for practice ammo.
Over 20 years and over 200,000 loading on a 650 putting grease under station one works a lot better than no grease. But you can do whatever you want. I know it works. I went through the same problem over 15 years ago.
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Old 05-22-2015, 18:19   #18
danbocog
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Glock Case Bulge

I'm not sure we understand each other. If the cases went into the case gauge no problem. It was the cases that would go into the case gauge to about 1/16 of an inch above the extractor groove that were the problem. Had nothing to do with the bell not being removed. The reject rate approached 25% of all loaded rounds of these there would be up to 15% that would not go into battery. I found this .unacceptable. I could have thrown all Glockedup brass away and bought new brass or try the bulge buster. It works.
The statement I made in regards to bad winchester brass was most evident when a case failed to be inserted into the shell plate. The cases could usually be pushed into place and continue to load normally. I like to know what causes a problem with an otherwise smooth running press. Miked the cases for OAL and diameter. It was not until I had seated and crimped the bullet and put it in the case gauge that the "out of round" rims were evident. To ron59's dismay a majority of them were/are Winchester. I don't know how putting grease under the station one locator will solve a problem with out of spec case heads.
Much of my brass has been loaded 25+ times and i know by the soot and powder residue on the cases that they are "work" harden, Possibly causing enough pressure problems to distort case rims.
Does anyone know of a cheap home remedy for pistol brass that needs annealing?
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Old 05-22-2015, 19:50   #19
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I understand what you are saying. If you have that problem I would say your sizer die is not adjusted right. It needs to go further down. Or use a Lee sizing die. I have loaded and shot many of thousands of 40 without using a bulge buster die. And all of my brass is range pickup and just about all of it was shot in Glocks and 99% of my shooting is all Glocks. And I have never had that kind of failure rate. That a round would not chamber. So your sizing die is adjusted wrong, your COL is too long, or you are not removing enough of the bell on the case.
I have the Redding R-X bulge buster and found it was a waste of time. But I no longer shoot or own any 40 Glocks anymore. I had 2 G22, G27, G23, G34, and a G42 and they all shot without using any Bulge buster. Also the people I shoot with we all started out using the 40 and none of them also ever used a bulge buster. And they also used range pickup brass.
The grease lets the station 1 to give up and down. Without the grease the case could hit the shell plate and the shell plate is not going to give. But with the grease, the station 1 can move. But like when I asked the same question. Was told if you remember the station 1 had grease installed when you bought the press. Where does it say not to put grease under station 1?
There are a lot of places you need to put grease, oil, and graphite that are not listed in the manual.
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Old 05-22-2015, 20:51   #20
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I prize Win brass and love W231.
Started reloading in the mid 80's. My mentor told me two things you must have if you ever expect to make good hand loaded bullets. Winchester primers and 231 powder. Haven't even heard of anyone picking up a pound of 231 powder in years. Like others, I have moved on to a more ready available powder and now that too is on the no have list! All on hand pistol primers both small and large are CCI or Federal. No complaints.
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