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Old 05-16-2011, 13:23   #1
Agent Tikki
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Having fun with a G20LS.....

Ordered some Full Power Swampfox ammo. There's a disclaimer stating it must be fired from a full supported chamber (read aftermarket barrel). Fired about 10 from a Glock 29, with a KKM 4" afermarket barrel, with 21# Wolf springs on an uncaptured steel rod. Fired 40 from a G20LS Lone Wolf solid top longslide with a 6" KKM barrel and a stock 17# ISMI captured steel recoil rod setup up. Frame is a G21SF with Glockworx Zev Fulcrum Trigger and a Factory - connector.

They're not kidding about this full power thing. Out of a box of 50 of 200 gr Hornady XTP, I had 1 case ruptures, 2 blown primers (completely missing from the ejected brass), about 10 bulged cases and 5 cases showing flattened primers. These are from the 34 out of 50 cases I was able to recover. Since I was testing out my new build (the long slide) I used most of the ammo on it. Question is, Should I be afraid to shoot this ammo? But it's so fun!

At the end of the box I had 3 FTFeeds on my G20LS and a huge smile on my face. I had more Nuclear Swampfox ammo, but a broken retainer washer on the G20LS's recoil rod ended my session. I discovered this when I field stripped it looking for damaged when I discovered the ruptured case. I had initially thought the added mass of the long slide allow me to run only a 17# spring. As it were it shot beautifully and smoothly except for the FTFs. Recoil was much more mild compared to the G29 even with only a 17# factory rated recoil spring. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say the G20LS was pleasant to shoot. The G29 was a b*tch to handle, tho I had no fte/ftf with it whatsover (but that's only out of 10 rounds)

I'm thinking that when I replace the washer on the recoil rod (hopefully with something a bit stronger), I'll try the 20# spring and I'll try my hand at polishing the feed ramp a bit on the barrel. Funny thing is, even when the retainer washer broke, it still held the spring in place and the gun was still functioning fine. God know how many round I fired after this happened. That's a Glock for ya. I'm assuming a heavier spring rate will slow down the slide speed a bit, and hopefully allow for smoothing feeding and less battering of the recoil rod washer.

I'm open to any suggestions if any of you guys have any input as to how I'm gonna get this bad boy up and running to 100%
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Old 05-16-2011, 14:05   #2
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I have a G20L open top, but I have a G20LS on the way. Another member asked me if I had bent or broken any locking block pins (he's shooting a G20LS), which I haven't, so I'm VERY interested to see if you experience this. Nice report, I can't wait to test my own. I think the extra power spring will cure your failures, because it did for me. With the stock spring in my G20L, the slide was moving way too fast for the stock spring to allow the extractor to catch the case rim properly shooting hot loads. Please post some pics when you get a chance.
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Old 05-16-2011, 16:44   #3
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Here you go Meathead, its still a work in progress, haven't decided on the finish for it. I'm leaning towards a CP2, fogive the pics, my phone doesn't have the greatest camera.

Do you thinking I should try and polish the feed ramp?


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Btw the sights are just a tempory thing, I'm really thinking long and hard about melting a red dot and using suppressor buis. I just had an extra set I put on for the time being.

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Old 05-16-2011, 17:08   #4
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Looking good tikki. I'm going with CCR's Cera-Hide on mine, but I like the black look. I'm also sticking with my Dawson Precision adjustable black rear & F/O front. I like the idea of a red-dot, but I'd probably use a Carver Mount/Aimpoint if I ever did that. I'd be interested to see if that melted in sight could stand up to a healthy diet of 10mm.

I haven't had any hang-ups at the feedramp, so unless that's where your rounds are hanging up, I'd leave it alone for now. Start with the spring, and then change one thing at a time to help narrow down the problem. Good luck man.
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:07   #5
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I would absolutely not shoot ammo that is blowing primers and rupturing cases. In my way of interpreting things, blown primers and case ruptures are small little clues that excess pressures might be in play. I think that the manufacturer would be interested in knowing what you are experiencing. He is a regular contributor here in the 10 Ring (Mudrush), so I imagine that he'll chime in before too long. If my hand loads exhibited such symptoms I would pull the bullets and redo.

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Old 05-17-2011, 10:08   #6
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Sweet looking long slide, by the way.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:42   #7
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I haven't had any hang-ups at the feedramp, so unless that's where your rounds are hanging up, I'd leave it alone for now. Start with the spring, and then change one thing at a time to help narrow down the problem. Good luck man.
Great advice, I'll play around with the spring rates first and see if things. Work out.

If you have a sec, I'm running into another problem. I'm running this setup on a G21 frame. When I have the G21 slide on, my trigger pull (a Zev Fulcrum competition, with a factory 4.5 connector) is nice and smooth. When I put my my G20LS slide on, its gritty and inconsistent. I've polished the firing pin safety on both and polished the hook at the end of the firing pin...but this gritty trigger won't go away. It was NOT there when I took it to the range 2 days ago. I only noticed it Yesterday when I field stripped it and cleaned it....really strange. Any thoughts? Maybe I a problem with the firing pin and related parts? I pulled firing pin....everything looks ok......
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:42   #8
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Sweet looking long slide, by the way.
Thx! and thx for the heads up, I'm contacting Mudrush and seeing of there is something we can work out!
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Old 05-17-2011, 13:53   #9
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Originally Posted by Agent Tikki View Post
If you have a sec, I'm running into another problem. I'm running this setup on a G21 frame. When I have the G21 slide on, my trigger pull (a Zev Fulcrum competition, with a factory 4.5 connector) is nice and smooth. When I put my my G20LS slide on, its gritty and inconsistent. I've polished the firing pin safety on both and polished the hook at the end of the firing pin...but this gritty trigger won't go away. It was NOT there when I took it to the range 2 days ago. I only noticed it Yesterday when I field stripped it and cleaned it....really strange. Any thoughts? Maybe I a problem with the firing pin and related parts? I pulled firing pin....everything looks ok......
That is strange. All I can think of is a small variance between the frames. I had a Vanek Classic Grand Master Trigger Kit in my G20SF frame/G20L slide. It advertised a 2# trigger pull, but it never got under 4# according to my gunsmith's gauge. I sent it back to Charlie, and he said that the Jager Firing Pin had a little drag, so it had to be shaved down a little. I got it back, and still no better than 4#. I even tried it with my factory slide, and got the same result. I sent it back to him for a refund, and I'm perfectly happy with my stock trigger now. He said it must have been because of my particular SF frame, because it gauged @ 2.5# in a SF frame he had in his shop. The good thing about that whole ordeal is all the dry-firing I did trying to fall in love with that Vanek, really sharpened my trigger finger with the stock trigger. I wish I could be more help.
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Old 05-17-2011, 14:03   #10
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Oops, I guess I didn't read that clearly.

If it happens when you change uppers, something on the G20LS has to be dragging. I wonder if you could mark the slide or trigger assembly somehow (chalk, dry erase pen?) to see where it's making too much contact. It could be something with the firing pin channel, maybe give that a good cleaning and see if that helps. The FP channel could be slightly out of spec too, since it is an aftermarket slide. Is there any way to polish the inside of the FP channel? Is that a bad idea?

Good luck man, I hope you figure it out soon. Keep us posted on your progress with it.
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Old 05-17-2011, 14:14   #11
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I believe at this point that the issues are caused by primarlily the 17lb spring.

It's allowing the lockup to open and the case to start moving out of the chamber while the pressure is still fairly high.

The longer barrel is just adding to the length of time the pressure stays high magnifyling the issue.

The primers will stay in fine with the stronger spring. I recommend a 22lb or higher.

The word rupture is kinda of gross word to describe the brass.

It cracked on the side. This is due to the anealing process, or lack of it on that piece of brass, I would say. Improperly annealed brass can't expand when fired becasue it is too hard. It cracks instead.

I had this issue with many pieces of top brass in the past and am not using it now because of this issue. I replaced several thousand rounds due to this issue.

I saw it on all types of ammo, not just the 200gr hot stuff.

It was a real PITA.

All the other issues are spring/timing related and magnified by the longer barrel.

Just a little tuning is needed.
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Old 05-17-2011, 14:40   #12
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I think I'm gonna try and clean out that Firing pin channel liner and dissamble the firing pin assembly and clean it down. I was gonna try and lighten the pull on it anyways by lightening the firing pin and changing out a lighter firing pin spring.
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Old 05-17-2011, 14:41   #13
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Originally Posted by mudrush View Post
I believe at this point that the issues are caused by primarlily the 17lb spring.

It's allowing the lockup to open and the case to start moving out of the chamber while the pressure is still fairly high.

The longer barrel is just adding to the length of time the pressure stays high magnifyling the issue.

The primers will stay in fine with the stronger spring. I recommend a 22lb or higher.

The word rupture is kinda of gross word to describe the brass.

It cracked on the side. This is due to the anealing process, or lack of it on that piece of brass, I would say. Improperly annealed brass can't expand when fired becasue it is too hard. It cracks instead.

I had this issue with many pieces of top brass in the past and am not using it now because of this issue. I replaced several thousand rounds due to this issue.

I saw it on all types of ammo, not just the 200gr hot stuff.

It was a real PITA.

All the other issues are spring/timing related and magnified by the longer barrel.

Just a little tuning is needed.


Thx ! I'm gonna try this out and report back to you Mudrush!
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Old 05-17-2011, 15:20   #14
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Thx ! I'm gonna try this out and report back to you Mudrush!
Did the rupture look something like this?

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Old 05-17-2011, 15:24   #15
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Originally Posted by Agent Tikki View Post
I think I'm gonna try and clean out that Firing pin channel liner and dissamble the firing pin assembly and clean it down. I was gonna try and lighten the pull on it anyways by lightening the firing pin and changing out a lighter firing pin spring.
I forgot to mention that I was getting light primer strikes every other round with the Reduced Power Striker Spring & Jager Ultra Light FP that came with my Vanek Trigger Kit. I know CCI350's aren't the softest primers, but that's what I run in all my 10mm/9x25 Dillon loads. I had to use the factory power Striker Spring to get all my primers to go bang, and that added about 12oz to the trigger pull.
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Old 05-17-2011, 16:36   #16
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Hrm, I think I'm gonna hold off of any trigger modifications for now. Focus on the feeding issues first, so I'm ordering some new recoil springs.




@Mudrush

Top row, fifth one from the left, that is exactly what it looked like. I've already pul and order in for a #22 and #24 spring, hope I can still rack the slide!
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Old 05-17-2011, 21:48   #17
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Hrm, I think I'm gonna hold off of any trigger modifications for now. Focus on the feeding issues first, so I'm ordering some new recoil springs.




@Mudrush

Top row, fifth one from the left, that is exactly what it looked like. I've already pul and order in for a #22 and #24 spring, hope I can still rack the slide!
Keep an eye on your locking block pins, another member here bent some Glock pins and broke a set of Titanium pins with his G20LS w/22# spring. I'm assuming you're getting Wolff springs, because the last time I looked ISMI's strongest offering was 22#? The Wolff springs aren't made to operate on an ISMI guiderod. From what I've read, the ISMI is smaller in diameter, and ISMI springs won't fit on a Wolff guiderod. Let us know how it goes, hopefully it's just an isolated case.
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:08   #18
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I had initially thought the added mass of the long slide allow me to run only a 17# spring. As it were it shot beautifully and smoothly except for the FTFs.
The primary reason, in the case of this ammo, that a spring upgrade is required, Is not to slow the slide down(that is the secondary), It is to
make sure that the slide is completely in battery and to increase the dwell time before unlocking. This is very important.

The added mass would contribute positively when moving rearward but negatively when moving forward. I would not recommennd shooting this ammo in a Glock firearm with less than a 22lb spring.

After that comes the slide speed adjustments for feeding.

The split in the side of the case is ugly, but harmless from a safety stand point.
although repeated issues like that can dirty the chamber and lead to an out of battery problem.
(I know, It can't happen on a Glock )But it really can.

It would end up looking like a blowout, even on a lone wolf barrel.

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Old 05-18-2011, 19:02   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudrush View Post
The primary reason, in the case of this ammo, that a spring upgrade is required, Is not to slow the slide down(that is the secondary), It is to
make sure that the slide is completely in battery and to increase the dwell time before unlocking. This is very important.

The added mass would contribute positively when moving rearward but negatively when moving forward. I would not recommennd shooting this ammo in a Glock firearm with less than a 22lb spring.

After that comes the slide speed adjustments for feeding.

The split in the side of the case is ugly, but harmless from a safety stand point.
although repeated issues like that can dirty the chamber and lead to an out of battery problem.
(I know, It can't happen on a Glock )But it really can.

It would end up looking like a blowout, even on a lone wolf barrel.
Hey Mike ...

I was just perusing this thread and it reminded me of an observation I made a while back regarding recoil springs and dwell time in Glock firearms.

With a 1911, the recoil spring doesn't do a single thing for keeping the slide "locked" (dwell time), contrary to popular belief. A recoil spring affects how fast the slide is decelerated (on the backstroke) and, moreso, how fast the slide returns to battery (frontstroke). The slide isn't even truly "locked" until the round is fired and the barrel and slide lock together at the radial lugs. Not even does a flat bottomed firing pin stop truly changes how the gun locks up (or its dwell time). The only thing that affects the time the slide stays closed is the slide's mass, which affects its inertia (ie, resistance to change in movement).

My observation is that I've heard quite a few people insist that a Glock will stay closed longer with a heavier recoil spring.

I'm wondering if its due to the Glock's camming barrel system.... ? The strange thing is, it doesn't SEEM to be any different, fundamentally, than the camming barrel of the 1911. In fact, others have done tests and noticed NO difference in velocity numbers with different springs. Then, others have reported different results...

Any thoughts on this? (Sorry if you're not familiar with the 1911 design... but that's kinda where my question stems from)...
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:06   #20
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Ordered some Full Power Swampfox ammo. There's a disclaimer stating it must be fired from a full supported chamber (read aftermarket barrel). Fired about 10 from a Glock 29, with a KKM 4" afermarket barrel, with 21# Wolf springs on an uncaptured steel rod. Fired 40 from a G20LS Lone Wolf solid top longslide with a 6" KKM barrel and a stock 17# ISMI captured steel recoil rod setup up. Frame is a G21SF with Glockworx Zev Fulcrum Trigger and a Factory - connector.

They're not kidding about this full power thing. Out of a box of 50 of 200 gr Hornady XTP, I had 1 case ruptures, 2 blown primers (completely missing from the ejected brass), about 10 bulged cases and 5 cases showing flattened primers. These are from the 34 out of 50 cases I was able to recover. Since I was testing out my new build (the long slide) I used most of the ammo on it. Question is, Should I be afraid to shoot this ammo? But it's so fun!

At the end of the box I had 3 FTFeeds on my G20LS and a huge smile on my face. I had more Nuclear Swampfox ammo, but a broken retainer washer on the G20LS's recoil rod ended my session. I discovered this when I field stripped it looking for damaged when I discovered the ruptured case. I had initially thought the added mass of the long slide allow me to run only a 17# spring. As it were it shot beautifully and smoothly except for the FTFs. Recoil was much more mild compared to the G29 even with only a 17# factory rated recoil spring. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say the G20LS was pleasant to shoot. The G29 was a b*tch to handle, tho I had no fte/ftf with it whatsover (but that's only out of 10 rounds)

I'm thinking that when I replace the washer on the recoil rod (hopefully with something a bit stronger), I'll try the 20# spring and I'll try my hand at polishing the feed ramp a bit on the barrel. Funny thing is, even when the retainer washer broke, it still held the spring in place and the gun was still functioning fine. God know how many round I fired after this happened. That's a Glock for ya. I'm assuming a heavier spring rate will slow down the slide speed a bit, and hopefully allow for smoothing feeding and less battering of the recoil rod washer.

I'm open to any suggestions if any of you guys have any input as to how I'm gonna get this bad boy up and running to 100%
AT,

As someone who feeds Swampfox ammo to their G20 and G29s about 50% of the time I can tell you that I have faith in using higher power springs or recoil systems to combat the minor issue you've had. I have always had a Sprinco, DPM systems, or 20+ power spring and rod system available for both of my Glocks and not once have I ever experienced the issue you have. I'm sure that when your upgrade equipment comes in you will wonder why you didn't just purchase one a long time ago.

If you think your G29 felt punishing then try firing it without the Hogue grip. That aggressive backstrap ripped my hand and that was using a 18 or 19lbs system. Also depending upon how you grip your Glocks I would be careful with using any extended features. I hold with my left thumb forward and my right thumb over the back of my left when shooting. This at times would cause my right thumb to slip under the slide stop and cause me to lock back the slide. Early one when using high powered ammo I might accidently depress my extended mag release. I got read of both parts and now I never have the issue.

You know it's all apart of the equation to complete your weapon system. The right tools and the right training. A properly tuned and maintained platform, properly tuned and effective ammo, and the experience and training to make the system work for you when needed. Oh and never, NEVER get rid of your old parts if they still work. It doesnt matter how many of them you have. You never know when you or someone you know is going to need them. 20+lbs recoil systems dont like weak ammo very much and will show you just how low a tolerance it has for it so carry some things with you. Nothing sucks more than driving out to a range and having constant FTF or stovepipes to deal with cause you forgot to pack your #17 or #18 recoil system and your weapon is set for full power. LOL!

Nice looking upgrade you've done there. I've got two project slides planned, one stock length and one tactical length that I'm going to have Glockworx hook up for me. Both are going to have Trijicon Dual-illumination Red-Dots put on them with co-witnessed suppressor sights. The plan is to have a 100yrd+ offensive handgun.


'Tac'
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:22   #21
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Hey Mike ...

I was just perusing this thread and it reminded me of an observation I made a while back regarding recoil springs and dwell time in Glock firearms.

With a 1911, the recoil spring doesn't do a single thing for keeping the slide "locked" or dwell time. A recoil spring affects how fast the slide is decelerated (on the backstroke) and, moreso, how fast the slide returns to battery (frontstroke). The slide isn't even truly "locked" until the round is fired and the barrel and slide lock together at the radial lugs. Not even does a flat bottomed firing pin stop truly change how the gun locks up (or its dwell time). The only thing that affects the time the slide stays closed is the slide's mass, which affects its inertia (ie, resistance to change in movement).

My observation is that I've heard quite a few people insist that a Glock will stay closed longer with a heavier recoil spring.

I'm wondering if its due to the Glock's camming barrel system.... ? The strange thing is, it doesn't SEEM to be any different, fundamentally, than the camming barrel of the 1911. In fact, others have done tests and noticed NO difference in velocity numbers with different springs. Then, others have reported different results...

Any thoughts on this? (Sorry if you're not familiar with the 1911 design... but that's kinda where my question stems from)...
Well, That's a deep and complex subject but, a recoil spring increase will have to affect the dwell slightly on all firearms to some degree it would seem. The rearward force has to go higher to over come it.

But the main reason, In my opinion for a recoil spring increase is to make sure the firearm is in full battery. All the other items come in as secondary.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:00   #22
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I'm going to have to back away from my ealier advice somewhat.

Yes the recoil spring is needed and would solve the issues if the firearm
was using a fully supported chamber barrel.

I did some testing with the kkm this weekend, Even though it is much
better than a stock glock, It is not as supported as a Lone wolf or even a storm lake.

I could get a bulge on the kkm but not on the lone wolf. I measured the ramp and
made a wax cast of it and the lone wolf and compared and there is substantial
difference between the two.

I am going to have to say that a kkm is not supported enough to meet the requirements of the ammo.

It will probably be fine but the bulge was there even with a 24 lb spring on the kkm.

I will be happy to swap out the ammo or take a return of the remaining ammo and give you a refund.

The barrel support and length are a little out of range of my ammo design.

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Old 05-23-2011, 13:38   #23
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You're a good guy, Mudrush. And your business practices are impeccable. Why anyone orders from Double Tap or anywhere else is beyond me. When I finally get around to buying some hot 10mm ammo, it will ONLY come from you (haven't bought any yet just because I've been spending all my gun money on reloading extras, bullets, etc.). It just kills me to see a brand that is CONSISTENTLY proved to be outright LYING on their velocity claims, be held in such high regard. Keep being honest, providing good customer service, and putting your customers first, and you will win in the long run. Your dedication to your customers was the main reason that it killed me to watch people jump on you in your recent thread.
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:00   #24
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Had a couple issues with my G20SL and I called up Dan @ Lone Wolf. Wow can't say enough about how great he was. He convinced me to send my slide back in, and he's reinstall my channel liner. He would also do a polish job on the fire controls, which I don't mind because, this will be a range gun, nothing more. Then he upsold me and conviced me to send in my new Leupold Delta Point RDS (I had originally planned to have a local gunsmith to do it). Not only did he CNC the slide to melt the RDS down into the slide, but he drilled two holes into the rear supressor sight, AND cut out two reliefs into the back portion of the slide to help give access for the hex wrench to the adjustment screws. Very nice detail, and an unexpected surprise. He then polished the feed ramp, and polished up the firing pin safety. The safety really looks alot different, but the end result is fantastic. I've already down a couple dozen dry fires and my trigger is just about the same as now as my factory slide, just like I wanted it. I'm ECSTATIC.

Thank you Dan, really appreciated it.

All said and done, it took about 11 days, from when I sent it out and when I got it back into my grubby little hands.

Gonna hit the rand tommorrow and kill some nasty paper targets.....

pRoN

The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring


btw the dot is really much bigger live, for some reason its about 1/2 the size in the photos, its a 7.5 moa triangular reticle. I'm hoping the upper tip is precise enough to use it out to longer distances 100+yards.
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Old 06-27-2011, 14:03   #25
nickE10mm
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Awesome pistol, Tikki!!!!
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10 Ring #1033 - Longslide #1045 - 10mm Loader #1066
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“Because a 9mm only kills your body… the 10mm kills your soul.”
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