GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-19-2013, 19:58   #1
tjshea
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tampa
Posts: 180
Wished I was carrying

I have not been carrying lately because I have been battling multiple kidney stones and on pain medication. However today I wish I was.

While walking to the St. Pete pier on the sidewalk, I was brushed from behind by a bicyclist who the skidded and went down, almost taking my six year old son with him. He then got up, and yelled at us for not getting out of his way. Then told us that pedestrian's cannot get in the way of bikes. Then starts charging at us arms raised as if he is going to hit me, until I pull out my phone and start calling 911. He then takes off. All of this in front of a sign that states bikes must yield to pedestrians.

This guy was a lot bigger than I am. I am thankful that by taking an aggressive stance, and keeping a cool head took care of the situation. Had it gotten any more heated, I would have wanted to have a gun ready.

My wife has changed her stance, and will now be carrying when I can't.
tjshea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 20:04   #2
Opie 1 Kenopie
Regular Guy
 
Opie 1 Kenopie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Still Stuck in the Suck--Central CA
Posts: 1,851
Always good to be carrying, but it sounds like you did exactly the right thing in THIS case. Pulling a pistol on this "Richard" would've been too much. If lunatics deserved a good shooting or even just a brandishing, I'd be pulling my CCW pistol several times a day.
__________________
Opie
"You find it offensive? Well I find it funny. That's why I'm happier than you."
Opie 1 Kenopie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 21:28   #3
NC Bullseye
Senior Member
 
NC Bullseye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Foothills
Posts: 961
Deadly force because of yelling and shoving?

Having a six year old grow up with dad in prison doesn't sound like the best plan.

Maybe think about something like pepper spray for those cases where deadly force is not justifiable but an increased level of force is?
NC Bullseye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 21:44   #4
LASTRESORT20
LongTerm-Guy
 
LASTRESORT20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 6,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
Deadly force because of yelling and shoving?

Having a six year old grow up with dad in prison doesn't sound like the best plan.

Maybe think about something like pepper spray for those cases where deadly force is not justifiable but an increased level of force is?

*Good Points...but no one really knows when the "yelling and shoving?" turns into a beat down...which can cause serious headaches/damage or take a life...In this situation having a gun doesnt mean pulling the trigger.

~ "Then starts charging at us arms raised as if he is going to hit me" ~

And he could of easily....good thing he was "sacred" of `the phone`...not everyone is ....some have figured out they can over take someone before they Dial....and even if they do dial it would take awhile for safe results...by then damage would have been done and the bad guy would be long gone.
LASTRESORT20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 21:52   #5
Zeebra724
Senior Member
 
Zeebra724's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 365
Glad you and your son made it out OK; the most random things can make the day go a lot better or a lot worse sometimes; glad this biker didn't make his day or yours any worse than he did...
__________________
MOLWN LABE!
Zeebra724 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 21:59   #6
rick_p
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: TX
Posts: 14
Say you pull a gun on the guy because you are frightened of him. He backs down, you are happy, but a bystander calls 911 on you for pulling a gun. Perhaps the bystander genuinely believes that you were overreacting and makes a credible report to the police, to that effect. Is the law on your side here? I'm just asking. I don't know.
rick_p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 22:26   #7
Opie 1 Kenopie
Regular Guy
 
Opie 1 Kenopie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Still Stuck in the Suck--Central CA
Posts: 1,851
I hate it when bikers take over our public beaches too.

__________________
Opie
"You find it offensive? Well I find it funny. That's why I'm happier than you."
Opie 1 Kenopie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 22:40   #8
brokenprism
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie 1 Kenopie View Post
Always good to be carrying, but it sounds like you did exactly the right thing in THIS case. Pulling a pistol on this "Richard" would've been too much. If lunatics deserved a good shooting or even just a brandishing, I'd be pulling my CCW pistol several times a day.
Yes, in this case, but we don't know how big you are, what you weigh -- there is 'disparity of force' to consider, and had a much bigger guy started pounding you, it could have gone differently.
brokenprism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 23:23   #9
OldSchool64
Platinum Membership
Senior Member
 
OldSchool64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,767
Sounds like your wife is a keeper...
__________________
still living & learning
OldSchool64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 06:18   #10
Glockrunner
HOOYA DEEPSEA
 
Glockrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: SC
Posts: 4,778
Send a message via Yahoo to Glockrunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_p View Post
Say you pull a gun on the guy because you are frightened of him. He backs down, you are happy, but a bystander calls 911 on you for pulling a gun. Perhaps the bystander genuinely believes that you were overreacting and makes a credible report to the police, to that effect. Is the law on your side here? I'm just asking. I don't know.
None of us know all the facts so that call can't be made. But remember, whenever you pull a firearm, YOU CALL 911 ASAP and file a report. Most often the first person that calls is looked at as the victim. By not reporting it you can be considered a criminal in many cases until the whole situation is corrected (most likely in a court of law).
__________________
"As an OK State Trooper once told me, "Why shouldn't a "good" citizen be allowed to carry a gun, all the "bad" guys already do.""
Certified Glock Armorer
Glockrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 07:13   #11
Arc Angel
Deus Vult!
 
Arc Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 10,956
Blog Entries: 55
Drink lots of water - At least 4 quarts each day, and avoid salt, cheese, red meats, and most commercially processed foods. (McDonald's, Popeye's, and Kentucky Fried are definitely out! So is a lot of diner food.) Have you ever heard of Oral Chelation? You might want to read up on the subject.

http://www.extremehealthusa.com/Oral...Chelation.aspx

Last edited by Arc Angel; 05-21-2013 at 16:00..
Arc Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 08:03   #12
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 20,024
Does not sound to me that that incident would have been one for a firearm. I am glad to hear it worked out well for you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockrunner View Post
... Most often the first person that calls is looked at as the victim. ....
Do you by chance have a reference for that? My limited experience suggests that who called first has little to no bearing on how an incident is handled.
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.
Bruce M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 08:57   #13
Lord
Senior Member
 
Lord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 955
Sometimes it's not just about pulling the firearm. Here in TX, and drilled into us in the classes for CHL, we're told that the MINIMUM amount of force must be used. In this case, pulling your phone and calling LEO worked. Beyond that, the next step would be to simply SHOW the aggressor that you are armed. The goal here is to impress upon them and cause a degree of apprehension in the aggressor that would be enough to make him stop his course of action. If showing doesn't work, then the next step would be pulling/drawing to indicate intention; that you will stop the bg from continuing in his course of action. The last two stages, aiming and firing, are of course the last but carry with them the need for a convincing argument that you were indeed fearful for your life and the lives of others near you.

The mindset that must be avoided is "omg a potential crisis here, let me immediately draw my weapon without properly assessing the situation..." Uncle Ben said it best... "with great power comes great responsibility" and it holds true when you CCW. It's not only your situational awareness that must remain sharp, it's how you handle yourself when a situation goes down that is equally important.

Chalk this one up to kismet that you were not carrying. perhaps the planets were aligned properly that you were not able to be carrying that day. Who knows, but you have to remember to face force with equal force. While you may have been right in your position when it all went down, a severe disparity of force might have been your undoing.
__________________
Lord
G-19, PT-140 Pro, PT-111 Pro, Core-15
Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 09:08   #14
Kriterian
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Does not sound to me that that incident would have been one for a firearm. I am glad to hear it worked out well for you.






Do you by chance have a reference for that? My limited experience suggests that who called first has little to no bearing on how an incident is handled.
I can't remember which book but you can ask the author, Mas Ayoob in the self defense forums here. One of his teaching moments had two people in an altercation and the perpetrator actually called 911 first and blamed it on the victim.
Kriterian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 11:24   #15
rick_p
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: TX
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord View Post
Sometimes it's not just about pulling the firearm. Here in TX, and drilled into us in the classes for CHL, we're told that the MINIMUM amount of force must be used. In this case, pulling your phone and calling LEO worked. Beyond that, the next step would be to simply SHOW the aggressor that you are armed. The goal here is to impress upon them and cause a degree of apprehension in the aggressor that would be enough to make him stop his course of action. If showing doesn't work, then the next step would be pulling/drawing to indicate intention; that you will stop the bg from continuing in his course of action. The last two stages, aiming and firing, are of course the last but carry with them the need for a convincing argument that you were indeed fearful for your life and the lives of others near you.

The mindset that must be avoided is "omg a potential crisis here, let me immediately draw my weapon without properly assessing the situation..." Uncle Ben said it best... "with great power comes great responsibility" and it holds true when you CCW. It's not only your situational awareness that must remain sharp, it's how you handle yourself when a situation goes down that is equally important.

Chalk this one up to kismet that you were not carrying. perhaps the planets were aligned properly that you were not able to be carrying that day. Who knows, but you have to remember to face force with equal force. While you may have been right in your position when it all went down, a severe disparity of force might have been your undoing.
Well put! I'm new to guns and I don't carry, but my instincts agree with your statements.
rick_p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 19:38   #16
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 20,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriterian View Post
I can't remember which book but you can ask the author, Mas Ayoob in the self defense forums here. One of his teaching moments had two people in an altercation and the perpetrator actually called 911 first and blamed it on the victim.

Any idea if that confused the police as to who was the real subject and victim for any length of time?
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.
Bruce M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 19:47   #17
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 8,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
Deadly force because of yelling and shoving?

Having a six year old grow up with dad in prison doesn't sound like the best plan.

Maybe think about something like pepper spray for those cases where deadly force is not justifiable but an increased level of force is?
He didn't say he was gonna cap him cause of 'yelling and shoving'. The guy was twice his size, fist upraised. If he had kept coming and started get to close then yep, use deadly force.

It's called disparancy of force. And if it was in Texas he would be 100 percent justified.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

Last edited by Deaf Smith; 05-20-2013 at 19:48..
Deaf Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 19:55   #18
4Rules
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjshea View Post
...This guy was a lot bigger than I am. I am thankful that by taking an aggressive stance, and keeping a cool head took care of the situation. Had it gotten any more heated, I would have wanted to have a gun ready.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...S7Z-Sjc#t=135s
4Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 08:08   #19
Ducowti
Senior Member
 
Ducowti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post

....It's called disparancy of force...
Its called 'disparity' of force. Im not Merriam Webster but I don't believe 'disparancy' is a word.
Ducowti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 08:51   #20
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 20,024
I think we need to work "irresputably" in there. Irresputably there can be disparancy of force issues.
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.
Bruce M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 09:16   #21
katana8869
NativeFloridian
 
katana8869's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Occupied Territory
Posts: 736
"Maybe think about something like pepper spray for those cases where deadly force is not justifiable but an increased level of force is?"

This ^^^ From what the OP described a little Saber Red would have been good to go both legally and from the standpoint of protecting both himself and his child. I keep one of the little ones in my pocket at all times for just these types of occasions and I would have damn sure sprayed the a-hole esp. if my daughter or wife were present.
__________________
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." - Wyatt Earp

"Tomorrow's battle is won during today's practice."
- Samurai maxim

Last edited by katana8869; 05-21-2013 at 09:20..
katana8869 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 15:23   #22
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 8,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducowti View Post
Its called 'disparity' of force. Im not Merriam Webster but I don't believe 'disparancy' is a word.
Fair enough, but it is still a disparity' of force and thus he would be well inside the law to use force, or lethal force, if need be.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 15:46   #23
floorburn_21
.40 ftw
 
floorburn_21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by katana8869 View Post
"Maybe think about something like pepper spray for those cases where deadly force is not justifiable but an increased level of force is?"

This ^^^ From what the OP described a little Saber Red would have been good to go both legally and from the standpoint of protecting both himself and his child. I keep one of the little ones in my pocket at all times for just these types of occasions and I would have damn sure sprayed the a-hole esp. if my daughter or wife were present.

I've been sprayed with Sabre and it just pissed me off more. About 2 minutes later I couldn't handle it, but it was more than enough time to show my Use of Force instructor I could handle it.

By the way, 2 minutes is plenty of time to get beat to death. The majority of serious assaults I've seen were done with feet and fists in a short period of time.
__________________
I've been maced, teargassed, tazered and beat on. I'm still more scared of my dad's disappointment than anything in this world.
floorburn_21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 15:47   #24
Lord
Senior Member
 
Lord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
He didn't say he was gonna cap him cause of 'yelling and shoving'. The guy was twice his size, fist upraised. If he had kept coming and started get to close then yep, use deadly force.

It's called disparancy of force. And if it was in Texas he would be 100 percent justified.

Deaf
It's called a "disparity of force", and in TX he would NOT have been justified. Read my previous post. Force must be met with equal force, or the minimum amount of force necessary to stop the bg.
__________________
Lord
G-19, PT-140 Pro, PT-111 Pro, Core-15

Last edited by Lord; 05-21-2013 at 15:48..
Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 16:02   #25
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 20,024
Sounds to me like it would not be a clear cut case of disparity of force and might require substantial legal fees. As such this incident might be one of those in which retreat might be the best, or at least, the least expensive choice.
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.
Bruce M is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:14.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,234
349 Members
885 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42