GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-27-2010, 11:23   #1
PaulMason
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,213
SHTF or TEWAWKI unknown - When do you kill the unarmed and uninvited?

The killing part was to get some attention. It is not telling or suggesting what you should do.

The question is: What do you do and when do you do it.
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
This is what you know
1. You have prepped and have everything you need for 1 year for you and your family that is living with you only
2. You live in a rural area more than 1 tank of gas away from a major city, but there are towns closer
3. Your house has a 100yd clear field of view around it; beyond that is bush and trees
4. You have a scoped rifle, and the skills to hit a rabbit out to 200yds.
5. You have a few close friends (15 adults - that includes the adults in your friends families - or less, not close by) who have prepped but not as well as you. They might need your help and some of your supplies.
6. You discussed with these friends before the current situation about helping each other out if SHTF or TEWAWKI. And you have discussed it since SHTF or TEWAWKI occurred but none of you have been tested
7. The SHTF or TEWAWKI cause is not biological or contagious.
8. SHTF or TEWAWKI appears to be nationwide
9. It is day 50 of SHTF or TEWAWKI it started with a nationwide electrical blackout, and progressed to oil refinery problems - fuel shortages, some communications out - cell phone, internet. Gradually since day 1 food deliveries were delayed. Over the next 49 days shortages and hunger, then starvation, closing of businesses, food riots, increase in crime, rioting and fires occurred.

What you do not know
A. You do not know if this is SHTF or TEWAWKI so civil, law, authority might be reestablished in the future
B. You do not know who or what caused the SHTF or TEWAWKI

Here is what is what you see
1. It is sun rise of day 50 of SHTF or TEWAWKI
2 You look out your window and see the following at 100 yards with your binoculars
a. A man is looking at your house, small garden, chicken coop and, tilled fields through his binoculars
b. A total of 15 people
3 men 30 - 35 yo
3 women 30 - 40
2 teenage girls
2 teenage boys
4 children - 2 boys, 2 girls
1 baby in one of the women’s arms

Here is what happens
100 yards - they all put down their backpacks and what they are carrying down in a pile and begin to walk to your house in a line so you can see them all.

80 yards - they all stop, take off their jackets - show they are empty, raise their shirts, turn fully around - show nothing is concealed, do the same with their pants and the children

60 yards - your armed roving patrol runs up to the group and stops the group. (you and your friends put 4 patrols together - 2 day, 2 night - this is the one closest to you, they only walk, also have fixed locations with some good sight lines – not great, this is flat land)

60 yards - the patrol stops the 3 adult men and 2 women but adult mother and child with others continue walking towards the house. The adults tell your patrol that they need food, water and a place to stay. They saw what was developing in the cities and got out. Your patrol radios you with this info.

40 yards - the young people continue walking

20 yards - the young people continue walking

0 yards - you are behind a secure door, the young people are at your door saying - we need food, water, shelter – especially for the children, they continue to talk though the door and tell you stories about the savagery and hunger in the cities.
They are from a church group day care center. The children are not theirs but those of mothers and fathers that have been killed by criminals and medical problems.


Like many in the cities they were able to get buy with the dwindling food in the stores and homes for awhile. Then they were able to use some of the food in the church. When they saw things were not getting better, they took the church's van as far as they could and then walked. They have learned to work together and have survived by traveling at night and being as quiet as possible.

The tell you that they can not walk any further and are not moving any further.

They tell you there are more like them behind coming.

What do you do and when do you do it?

Last edited by PaulMason; 02-27-2010 at 11:35..
PaulMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 11:36   #2
why
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,132
The over/under on this thread degenerating is 7. 12 for thread lock.
(and yes, i do know this wasnt a helpful post)
why is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 11:42   #3
Davegrave
Dapper Dan
 
Davegrave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NW IN
Posts: 5,752


Kill all the men. Keep the children for field work and the women for housework and lovin.

/thread
__________________
YOU FORGOT YOUR BRIEFCASE!!!
Davegrave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 11:53   #4
Ronaldo
Ancient Member
 
Ronaldo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Free Republic of Tejas
Posts: 1,396
OP, you can play out these little scenarios for eternity but whatever you may come up with, it will NEVER play out the way you envision it.

What WILL happen is that you will decide, then and there, your course of action, which will depend on the exact circumstances at that time. No amount of "if - then" planning will substitute for the ambiguities you will experience when the moment arrives.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but that's how the world works.

You can improve the situation by continued practice with defensive (and offensive) tactics, so at least when you act, you will revert to your training.

But you will have to decide your course of action when the moment arrives, and be able to live with the consequences...

Ronaldo - living in a very uncertain world
__________________
'That which does not kill us, makes us stronger' - Nietzche

'Blood and Chocolate - in the dark, you can't tell the difference'
Ronaldo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 11:54   #5
cyrsequipment
Angry
 
cyrsequipment's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,531


I think the odds previously stated a VERY generous...

This is going to degrade rather quickly.

I don't have any desire to kill anyone, My goal with prepping is to keep myself alive and to NOT STAND OUT.

But if I fail at the not standing out part, I ain't gonna kill anyone unless they are a physical threat to me.
__________________
Shoot it until it stops.
cyrsequipment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 12:33   #6
PaulMason
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronaldo View Post
OP, you can play out these little scenarios for eternity but whatever you may come up with, it will NEVER play out the way you envision it.
Obviously, this is true for life in general. You never know what will happen when you wake up in the morning to go to work.

No bubbles burst.
PaulMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 12:57   #7
G29Reload
Tread Lightly
 
G29Reload's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,624
Tell them you're sorry to hear of their difficulites. Then explain their future:

-If you have a continuous supply of water, you will refill their containers.
-If you need some work done, tell them they can labor in barter for some things you can afford to spare.
-They can rest awhile after, but have to move along. You may camp at the far end of the property close to the road and no closer to us.

We do not have any other infrastructure to support you, and you have no right to squat here. That will be enforced, with force if you do not move along after a decent interval. We will signal that interval with warning shots if necessary.

OTOH, with more coming up the road behind them, if you don't remove them immediately, the word will get out on the road that you're a temporary haven. You might be best firing at their feet to stop their approach...no one wants to hang out with gunfire coming their way. PRIVATE PROPERTY...MOVE ALONG!

Last edited by G29Reload; 02-27-2010 at 13:26..
G29Reload is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 13:00   #8
whogasak47
JPFO-GOA
 
whogasak47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N E Louisiana
Posts: 1,006


Probably would make a good movie script. On a Public forum, that can be seen by anyone on the planet, i would consider answering ,"do not know never thought about it." Might make a good short story also.
__________________
Rule #1 Watch out for Number 1.
Rule #2 Remember your Number.

There is nothing wrong with a little shooting, as long as the right people get shot.
whogasak47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 13:24   #9
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 12,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
Tell them you're sorry to hear of their difficulites. Then explain their future:

-If you have a continuous supply of water, you will refill their containers.
-If you need some work done, tell them they can labor in barter for some things you can afford to spare.
-They can rest awhile after, but have to move along. You may camp at the far end of the property close to the road and no closer to us.

We do not have any other infrastructure to support you, and you have no right to squat here. That will be enforced, with force if you do not move along after a decent interval. We will signal that interval with warning shots if necessary.
This seems to be a reasonable plan. Unless you're completely heartless, you're going to feel compelled to offer this group SOME type of aid so you may as well set the boundaries and stick to them. If you're not prepared how you will react to their requests for help, the only other alternative is to try and hold them at the perimeter of your property, probably with some type of intimidation, and hope for the best.
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 13:36   #10
Glock30 Guy
XD40
 
Glock30 Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 465
If it was a real bad SHTF situation and was a national crisis, I'd have lots of signs posted at 50 yards all around my property with a very clear warning that anyone stepping past that point would be shot without warning. You were smart enough to prepare for this and they chose not to. Screw em.
__________________
(3) Springfield Armory XD40 SubCompact (.40 S&W)

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."
Glock30 Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 14:01   #11
mitchshrader
Deceased
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 26,577
When, IF, they represent clear and present danger. Deadly Infection vector, cannibals, ravenous hordes during famine, etc.

When you have to, and not until. With all the squeamishness you think you can afford.

However, I can say that survival odds would be enhanced by enthusiastic willingness to work for groceries, and severely degraded otherwise.
__________________
OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER "This guy is a flake, listen at your own risk"

Last edited by mitchshrader; 02-27-2010 at 14:04..
mitchshrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 16:28   #12
inzone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 507
old buckets

I have a gazillion really old buckets of food I nitrogen and 02 absorber packed, I put by over ten years ago or so....I have replaced all of them but i kept them anyway....I would give these poor refugees some of these old buckets, which are still quite edible by the way, and then send them on their way.... I am a Christian and also a prepper......
inzone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 17:39   #13
Kaceyx73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Upstate, SC
Posts: 257
Send a message via Yahoo to Kaceyx73
This kind of scenario reminds me of a really cheesy sci fi movie from the 90's called "Screamers." Intelligent machines use human replicas to infiltrate and destroy human colonies on other planets, by pretending to be children, women, and even wounded soldiers.

Ok, its far fetched, maybe, but the point is there are so many variables in these scenarios that make it difficult to articulate an exact solution. Day 50? Definitely SHTF territory, and I would tend to agree with G29. At some point, forming relations with other survivors and starting over would be paramount, but I don't know if D-50 is far enough out to weed out the problems. The genetic qualities and skill sets of individuals in this scenario could mitigate much of the risk. Do they compliment your own group or are they just more mouths to feed? I might choose to let the women and children stay, while letting the men and teenage boys search for a better location, provided that they remain away from the road, work, stay in plain site, etc. If the men know some valuable skill of use in such a scenario, that might play into a decision.

I doubt many preppers have the resources to assimilate such a large group, especially on short notice, and giving such a group access to your resources without them "proving" their worth could prove suicidal. Again, D-50 to me is too soon to take in such a group, knowing that more is on the way shortly.

That isn't to say I wouldn't be inclined to help in some small way, but with the masses still migrating that early on I surely wouldn't be capable of doing much, and I sure as h*ll would not tolerate a FEMA style refugee camp forming on or near my 'stead.
Kaceyx73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 17:57   #14
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 13,137
Nuke them from orbit. . .

But seriously. . . Bad tactics on both sides! All of them approaching at once, in the open. That's just begging to be killed. Your patrol "running up to the group" is stupid also. Your guys need to keep at least 10 yards MINIMUM between them and the group. Preferably your guys remain behind cover. Too easy for 15 people to overpower 2-3 guys, armed or not. Then those folks will have weapons and hostages.

At some point you will need to take action to prevent them from getting closer. I'd try and keep them at least 50 yards away from any house. Just because you don't see any guns, doesn't mean they're not armed. Perhaps a few rounds of .22lr in the dirt right in front of them might change their actions. Yes that is risky as ricochet could cause injury. Maybe a high power pellet gun? But once you start down a path of aggression, you better be prepared to go all the way. .

But ultimately, you better figure out what your going to do. Once they're on your front porch, banging on the door and windows, your screwed. They could easily burn you out, or smash through multiple windows at the same time.

Their behavior is NOT passive. It is aggressive! They are not stopping despite being told to do so even when confronted by armed individuals. They are NOT following your orders. They are trying to set the terms of the engagement. Do what you have to do to keep them 50+ yards away, or give them food/water. . . Not much middle ground. I hate to sound cold, but they have no RIGHT to your supplies. if you wish to offer aid, that one thing. If they ask politely, that's fine also. But once you say NO. . . They need to behave and move on down the road. . If they are not going to follow simple commands such as "Stop! Don't come any closer." They probably won't listen to you when you say "here is some food, now go away". . They will be back asking for more.
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -

Last edited by wjv; 02-27-2010 at 23:18..
wjv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 19:00   #15
Kaceyx73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Upstate, SC
Posts: 257
Send a message via Yahoo to Kaceyx73
Sorry for getting sidetracked on my post. bcvojak, you are correct and that was my point with "Screamers." If you halt them away from the house, great, you can decide the terms of engagement. But if they ignore your demands to cease then they are your enemy.
Kaceyx73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 21:55   #16
fmfdocglock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,881
Pass

Think I'll pass on this thread.
fmfdocglock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 22:10   #17
engineer151515
_______________
 
engineer151515's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,253


Quote:
They tell you there are more like them behind coming.
I think your primary residence might have just become untenable.
__________________
"...dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." - Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
engineer151515 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 23:15   #18
mitchshrader
Deceased
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 26,577
JOKE MODE ON :

Hire them as security guards, 50c a day and all the trespassers they can eat.

JOKE MODE OFF.
__________________
OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER "This guy is a flake, listen at your own risk"
mitchshrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2010, 00:22   #19
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,984
Blog Entries: 1
Fire off warning shots at their feet from 100 yards out. If they don't get the hint, game on. Sad story or not, they are a threat to you, whether they mean it or not. You will be overrun by others if you don't stop it then and there.

Hate to be a hardliner but there is no sliding scale or slippery slope. You help them all, or you help none. You can't moderate it in that type of scenario.

P.S. What do the women look like?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2010, 00:52   #20
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 13,137
People don't need to be charging you with a knife in their teeth and a pistol in each hand to be deemed aggressive. Like the guy in the movie Carriers, who ran out of gas, so he parked his large SUV sideways across the completely road blocking it, so that any cars coming along would be forced to stop.

Some actions force confrontation. . . .

It's a difficult topic. If you chase someone off, whats to stop them from coming back at 3AM with a can of gas, and a box of matches.

If you feed them, they will very likely come back for more, and may get twice as indignant if you deny them more food, because now they actually KNOW that you have extra food.

Seems like the best three options are:

- Be well hidden to avoid such problems in the first place
- Be gray so no one will think that your worth bothering
- Be part of a well armed, well supplied 50+ person MAG

Here's something to chew on. .

Our church helps support a Bible College in Haiti. The earthquake hit on Tuesday, Jan 12. Here are excerpts from emails that were sent from the Pastors who were running the bible college. . .

Tuesday, Jan 12

Our houses are still standing, but most everything inside is broken and fallen over. Bolosse got hit hard. The Bible School was in session and the attic and office floors collapsed. Walls, houses are down all around us and walls and some of the houses have damage here on campus too. There are no cell phones or other phone services so most of them don’t have any news of their families So keep praying for this whole country. The school year for STEP is over -- none of the buildings can be used as the damage and loss is incredible.

Thursday, Jan 14 forwarded from Cindy's father

We had a Skype call this morning [with Bruce and Cindy]. They got no sleep last night. They have hundreds of Haitians in their yard. Cindy took out all the bedding she had but it only went so far. She gave the last of their food to them this morning but it could not feed over 200 people.

Thursday, Jan 14

Yesterday, Wednesday, our campus filled up even more. All our yards have become like one big campground. The men say we probably have about 2000 here now (if not more). Have you thought about where those 2000 are going to the bathroom? That's right...in our yards. We could have a real medical problem here real soon. Need to get some holes dug or something.

We realize what is going to be a problem for us all is clean drinking water and then food. We had just arrived back and I had only done a small market the day after we arrived and was planning on going out again to do more - so that never happened. Drinking water is more crucial though. We've been told that for city water there are broken pipes so we don't know if we'd get any anyhow, and we're not sure it would be safe to use even if we did get it. So, just these basic necessities are a prayer request.

Friday, Jan 15 forwarded from Cindy's father

We had a 25 minute call from Cindy and they have dug latrines but they need more for the 2,000+ they have on campus. It was dark at 6:30 when Cindy phoned and the campus is head-to-toe, body-to-body with over 2,000 guests sleeping for the night. No more room for any others to lie down. Some leave in the daytime and bring water as well as bringing more injured and dead bodies. They go out to their homes but will not spend the night in them. The roads are full at night with sleeping people. Drinking water is a critical need. Some go out in the daytime and are able to find food. All we can do is PRAY. The roads are such that aid will be difficult to get to them.

Friday, Jan 15
Last night we had more people come to the campus….if you can believe it. We have a tent up which is being used to put those seriously injured in. The dr. here on campus got some help yesterday from medical people that live in the neighborhood and they were doing what they could with the limited things available

Sunday, Jan 24

There has been some progress made. Some men from Samaritan’s Purse arrived up here on Friday and Bruce walked around with them so they could assess our water system here and plan how to set up some pure water systems. They came back both Sat. and today and we do have two systems for purifying water that are connected right into our water system. After the church service today here on campus, the people were told to bring their 1-gallon jugs so they could get some pure drinking water. Everyone was happy and grateful.

We had a medical team here through Friday and then two doctors with Medical Teams International based in Oregon came up on Saturday and will be returning Monday to live up here on campus to continue giving medical care. Again, the people are grateful for this aid.

Yesterday we were to receive a delivery of food aid accompanied by an armed UN escort. The community committee helping us organize all the displaced people who are here on campus had been given the task of dividing the people into groups, registering names, and appointing group leaders. At noon we asked all the group leaders to meet in our yard so David could explain to them what was happening and instruct them with the orderly procedure that had been planned to distribute the food. After waiting for 4 hours and trying to keep the group contained in our yard so the news didn’t get spread and others begin coming to the campus, we found out the aid was not coming. Needless to say, EVERYONE was disappointed! We felt so heartsick for all the Haitian people up here who needed the help and for hopes that were raised and then dashed. The aid group who had organized this left with promises of another day, but we were left to deal with situation here on the campus. We were so proud of the people up here. There were no angry outbursts and no apparent blaming us for nothing showing up. We trust God in knowing what is best for us all up here and for why this didn’t work out. Please pray for this to work out for another day if that would be best.
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -

Last edited by wjv; 02-28-2010 at 01:13..
wjv is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:55.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 593
128 Members
465 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31