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Old 05-26-2011, 14:25   #76
Alaskapopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has them. You can like your DI ARs, but the market is moving in a different direction. From piston ARs like the H&K416s, LWRC, STAG, S&W, to SCARs, to ACRs, to XCRs, and so on and so on, the rifle world is changing. Cool and clean is better, no matter what a rifle's use, and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.

Of course the SEALs and Rangers and AFCCs are stupid in their rifle choices. Those poor, ignorant souls. They're probably having to rebuild their rifles every few weeks or so, with parts always breaking and stuff.
Yea all the Rangers SEALS are using piston AR's . You're full of it. (sounds like someone is playing too much Counter Strike on line and not enough time shooting real guns) The HK416 was tested by not adopted by the SF community. Also a weapons weight may mean nothing to you but you don't speak for the average anything. You have been sold on piston Koolaid. That is great enjoy your guns. If you have not heard about piston guns breaking down like POF guns and what not your head is in the sand. Then there is the carrier tilt issue. There are a lot of bugs to work out of the piston system as it applies to AR's before they are to be trusted, hence part of the reason why the military dropped the HK416 for general issue.
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Old 05-26-2011, 15:40   #77
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.
Maybe not to somebody that shoots their guns off a bench. If you train with your rifle, use it at work, or just have it slung for more than a couple hours, youíll find weight does matter.
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Old 05-26-2011, 17:21   #78
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ive built 5 from sherluk parts and never had any problem
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Old 05-26-2011, 19:11   #79
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Yea all the Rangers SEALS are using piston AR's . You're full of it. (sounds like someone is playing too much Counter Strike on line and not enough time shooting real guns) The HK416 was tested by not adopted by the SF community. Also a weapons weight may mean nothing to you but you don't speak for the average anything. You have been sold on piston Koolaid. That is great enjoy your guns. If you have not heard about piston guns breaking down like POF guns and what not your head is in the sand. Then there is the carrier tilt issue. There are a lot of bugs to work out of the piston system as it applies to AR's before they are to be trusted, hence part of the reason why the military dropped the HK416 for general issue.
Pat
Actually Rangers, Green Berets and SEALS are using a variety of piton rifles. I have friends in all three Spec War groups And I certainly havent said anything about POF because I dont like their products. PWS eliminated piston tilt and weighs about the same as DI also does all the things every other piston claims to do.
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Old 05-26-2011, 19:31   #80
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Actually Rangers, Green Berets and SEALS are using a variety of piton rifles. I have friends in all three Spec War groups And I certainly havent said anything about POF because I dont like their products. PWS eliminated piston tilt and weighs about the same as DI also does all the things every other piston claims to do.
I am talking about piston AR's being general issue not about T&E guns.
Pat
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Old 05-26-2011, 20:41   #81
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Alaskapopo Well when it comes down to it I am sure we all own some really nice AR-15's piston or not, truth is this argument could go on and on! So I think I will end it on the personal opinion note! We might disagree on what type of rifle. But it does look like there is a lot of shooting technique and other knowledge that I can learn from you!
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Old 05-26-2011, 21:23   #82
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Old 05-26-2011, 21:24   #83
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Originally Posted by DerekMK23 View Post
Alaskapopo Well when it comes down to it I am sure we all own some really nice AR-15's piston or not, truth is this argument could go on and on! So I think I will end it on the personal opinion note! We might disagree on what type of rifle. But it does look like there is a lot of shooting technique and other knowledge that I can learn from you!
I have no problem with personal opinion. I just have a problem with piston fans say DI guns are worthless and obsolete. Like I said earlier a friend of mine has a LWRC its a fine gun. But I prefer my Noveske. I have never had an issue with running the guns too hot or getting them so dirty I could not get them clean in 20 minutes. I have a hard time paying $500 more for a feature that I see no benefit from. For what a LWRC costs I can build a very nice top end DI AR. Also I don't see any evidence that the market is moving towards Piston AR's. They have a following but I don't see it growing significantly.
Anyway take care.

Pat
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Old 05-27-2011, 05:20   #84
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Maybe not to somebody that shoots their guns off a bench. If you train with your rifle, use it at work, or just have it slung for more than a couple hours, you’ll find weight does matter.
Why does this weight of rifle keeps coming up. Only out of shape people worry about carrying their AR for a couple of hours. Do you really think a soldier goes on a mission with less ammo, or water, or removes his red dot sight to keep the weight down by a few ounces. Even lbs is nothing in the over all scheme of things. It's better to have it and don't need it, than to need it and don't have it.
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Old 05-27-2011, 05:34   #85
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Why does this weight of rifle keeps coming up. Only out of shape people worry about carrying their AR for a couple of hours. Do you really think a soldier goes on a mission with less ammo, or water, or removes his red dot sight to keep the weight down by a few ounces. Even lbs is nothing in the over all scheme of things. Most of the time, the back pack weights at least 90 lbs. It's better to have it and don't need it, than to need it and don't have it.
Because it is an important part of the discussion when discussing a fighting weapon. I can promise you that if you take a few 3 day classes where you are humping your rifle for 10 hours a day, weight will take on a whole new level of importance to you. Does it really matter if you are only taking your rifle to the range and plinking with it? No, probably not, but if you are training with your rifle a lot weight becomes a much more important factor.

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Old 05-27-2011, 08:24   #86
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Here are my ten in no particular order

LMT
LWRC
POF
BCM
Noveske
Daniel Defense
LaRue
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Knights
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Old 05-27-2011, 09:46   #87
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In no particular order:
LMT
LaRue
Colt
KAC
LWRC
Noveske
CMMG
Del-Ton
Spikes Tactical
BCM


I have shot and or owned all and can say none of these have given me issues.
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:14   #88
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J&t & nds

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Old 05-27-2011, 10:19   #89
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I have shot and or owned all and can say none of these have given me issues.
you sir then have a collection I am envious of
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:30   #90
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Well, all I can offer is that I have owned Colts and Bushmasters. My 2 Bushmasters work well, my Colts didnt so I sold them. I keep hearing all this talk about staked gas keys and such. I cant go to the range without some stranger comming up and saying something about it. I have been shooting my Bushmasters since 1997 (thousands of rounds) and have yet to have a issue with a gas key.

I am not saying Bushmaster is the best, they were within my budget and thats why I bought them. All I can say is that I would by another if I needed it.
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:53   #91
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Yea all the Rangers SEALS are using piston AR's . You're full of it. (sounds like someone is playing too much Counter Strike on line and not enough time shooting real guns) The HK416 was tested by not adopted by the SF community. Also a weapons weight may mean nothing to you but you don't speak for the average anything. You have been sold on piston Koolaid. That is great enjoy your guns. If you have not heard about piston guns breaking down like POF guns and what not your head is in the sand. Then there is the carrier tilt issue. There are a lot of bugs to work out of the piston system as it applies to AR's before they are to be trusted, hence part of the reason why the military dropped the HK416 for general issue.
Pat
What's great is when one can exchange ideas and information without resorting to insults....oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekMK23 View Post
Actually Rangers, Green Berets and SEALS are using a variety of psiton rifles. I have friends in all three Spec War groups And I certainly havent said anything about POF because I dont like their products. PWS (LWRC?) eliminated piston tilt and weighs about the same as DI also does all the things every other piston claims to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
I am talking about piston AR's being general issue not about T&E guns.
Pat
From what I have read,(and I don't profess to knowing 1st hand about what they are using) the SEALS and Delta are using HK416s. I have also read that the Rangers and A.F. Combat Controllers are using SCARs. And of course the SCAR line has be officially approved for Military purchase for those groups that have their own discretionary spending (an interesting note is that Mk16s are being replaced by Mk17s or 416s).
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Sounds to me like piston rifles are making serious in-roads with our Military, and it's obvious that more and more piston-based rifles are hitting the civilian market. You can quip sarcastically and insultively about "piston kool-aid" all you want, it won't stop the Military and civilian markets from moving onwards and upwards. While I own and enjoy shooting my DI AR, I know that my next purchase is going to be a piston rifle of some type.....
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Old 05-27-2011, 11:17   #92
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Because it (weight) is an important part of the discussion when discussing a fighting weapon. I can promise you that if you take a few 3 day classes where you are humping your rifle for 10 hours a day, weight will take on a whole new level of importance to you. Does it really matter if you are only taking your rifle to the range and plinking with it? No, probably not, but if you are training with your rifle a lot weight becomes a much more important factor.
Really?......hmmmm...not so sure on that one.

Almost every front-line trooper has things such as optics, PEQ 2s, M203s, VFGs, slings, quad-rails, etc., etc. on the rifles that they actually carry on foot. It doesn't seem to me that those that really use these types of rifles in combat sit around fretting over weight like a bunch of nancy-boys. It seems to me that they throw every bit of hardware on their rifles that they feel might enhance their chances of getting home alive and in one piece.

An additional point is that 99% of AR-type civilian rifle purchasers will never attend any training classes, and don't care much about weight. It seems as if it's a bitter pill to swallow for a few here, that for most of us our rifles are used for fun at the range and little else. And those that do use them for actual, serious buisness, also seem to not care about weight.

In fact, based on your comments, it seems that there is only an extremely select few that care about weight.....out-of-shape warrior wannabes at training classes that wished they were young and fit enough to actually join the fight over-seas. I put myself in the catagory of old, out-of-shape wannabe, and I still don't care about the weight of my rifle......it's just for funzies.

Civilians describing their rifles as "fighting weapons."Riiiiight. Check the pictures I just posted above.......those guys can call them "fighting weapons", the rest of us should just STFU and call them ARs or rifles. Do you really think the Ranger in the middle picture is worried about the weight of his "fighting weapon?" I doubt it very, very much.
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Old 05-27-2011, 14:11   #93
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Here are my ten in no particular order

LMT
LWRC
POF
BCM
Noveske
Daniel Defense
LaRue
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Knights
That's a pretty good list. If I had to come up with 10 I don't think I could do better.
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Old 05-27-2011, 14:17   #94
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What's great is when one can exchange ideas and information without resorting to insults....oh well.





From what I have read,(and I don't profess to knowing 1st hand about what they are using) the SEALS and Delta are using HK416s. I have also read that the Rangers and A.F. Combat Controllers are using SCARs. And of course the SCAR line has be officially approved for Military purchase for those groups that have their own discretionary spending (an interesting note is that Mk16s are being replaced by Mk17s or 416s).

Sounds to me like piston rifles are making serious in-roads with our Military, and it's obvious that more and more piston-based rifles are hitting the civilian market. You can quip sarcastically and insultively about "piston kool-aid" all you want, it won't stop the Military and civilian markets from moving onwards and upwards. While I own and enjoy shooting my DI AR, I know that my next purchase is going to be a piston rifle of some type.....
It's pretty well accepted that one area where piston beats DI is in suppressed SBRs. Perhaps that's why special forces use them. After all the military (I forget which branch) recently placed another large order for DI M4s.
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Old 05-27-2011, 14:21   #95
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
What's great is when one can exchange ideas and information without resorting to insults....oh well.





From what I have read,(and I don't profess to knowing 1st hand about what they are using) the SEALS and Delta are using HK416s. I have also read that the Rangers and A.F. Combat Controllers are using SCARs. And of course the SCAR line has be officially approved for Military purchase for those groups that have their own discretionary spending (an interesting note is that Mk16s are being replaced by Mk17s or 416s).
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Sounds to me like piston rifles are making serious in-roads with our Military, and it's obvious that more and more piston-based rifles are hitting the civilian market. You can quip sarcastically and insultively about "piston kool-aid" all you want, it won't stop the Military and civilian markets from moving onwards and upwards. While I own and enjoy shooting my DI AR, I know that my next purchase is going to be a piston rifle of some type.....
Psst a SCAR is not a pistol AR. Nor is a AK 47, nor is a M14 for that matter. Stay on topic.
I have no problem with other weapons designed from the ground up as a piston design. The AR was designed as a DI gun and it works well that way. A piston brings in all sorts of issues to this gun because it was not designed that way from the start. Issue like carrier tilt, added weight, more small parts that break. Keep drinking the Kool aid.
Pat
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Old 05-27-2011, 14:24   #96
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Really?......hmmmm...not so sure on that one.

Almost every front-line trooper has things such as optics, PEQ 2s, M203s, VFGs, slings, quad-rails, etc., etc. on the rifles that they actually carry on foot. It doesn't seem to me that those that really use these types of rifles in combat sit around fretting over weight like a bunch of nancy-boys. It seems to me that they throw every bit of hardware on their rifles that they feel might enhance their chances of getting home alive and in one piece.

An additional point is that 99% of AR-type civilian rifle purchasers will never attend any training classes, and don't care much about weight. It seems as if it's a bitter pill to swallow for a few here, that for most of us our rifles are used for fun at the range and little else. And those that do use them for actual, serious buisness, also seem to not care about weight.

In fact, based on your comments, it seems that there is only an extremely select few that care about weight.....out-of-shape warrior wannabes at training classes that wished they were young and fit enough to actually join the fight over-seas. I put myself in the catagory of old, out-of-shape wannabe, and I still don't care about the weight of my rifle......it's just for funzies.

Civilians describing their rifles as "fighting weapons."Riiiiight. Check the pictures I just posted above.......those guys can call them "fighting weapons", the rest of us should just STFU and call them ARs or rifles. Do you really think the Ranger in the middle picture is worried about the weight of his "fighting weapon?" I doubt it very, very much.
So civilians are never involved in life and death situations. Their homes never get broken into and they are never attacked. Do you really believe the garbage you just posted? Not to mention all the LEO (we are civilians not members of the military) that use our rifles on patrol. Weight is an issue to say otherwise just shows how little you actually know about the topic we are discussing. A fighting weapon is anything that you are using in a fight. Now does the extra weight of a piston system make or break the weapon system no. But its another disadvantage added to the long list. I think pistons have a place on SBR's and suppressed weapons. But for every other role the DI guns are a better choice.
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Old 05-27-2011, 14:49   #97
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Why does this weight of rifle keeps coming up. Only out of shape people worry about carrying their AR for a couple of hours. Do you really think a soldier goes on a mission with less ammo, or water, or removes his red dot sight to keep the weight down by a few ounces. Even lbs is nothing in the over all scheme of things. It's better to have it and don't need it, than to need it and don't have it.

Nobody is suggesting removing optics or carrying less ammo. Piston guns are gaining in popularity but so are light weight builds with pencil barrels. It isnít about being able to carry the weight, itís about optimizing your equipment. While it is better to have and not need, it is also better to not have what you donít need.
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Old 05-27-2011, 15:16   #98
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Nobody is suggesting removing optics or carrying less ammo. Piston guns are gaining in popularity but so are light weight builds with pencil barrels. It isnít about being able to carry the weight, itís about optimizing your equipment. While it is better to have and not need, it is also better to not have what you donít need.
True and the most in shape guys I know who do things like Sheep hunting do anything they can to spare a few ounces here and there. For anyone who has actually carried a gun any length of time will know you don't want to carry un neccessary weight.
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Old 05-27-2011, 15:17   #99
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An additional point is that 99% of AR-type civilian rifle purchasers will never attend any training classes, and don't care much about weight. It seems as if it's a bitter pill to swallow for a few here, that for most of us our rifles are used for fun at the range and little else. And those that do use them for actual, serious buisness, also seem to not care about weight.
I have attended carbine training classes. I also use one in connection with my job at one of the less prestigious Fed agencies. An AR is part of my home defense plan. To me, weight matters, to an extent. Does this make me a 1%er?
You seem to consider your AR to be a range toy. Thatís fine. Enjoy your 2nd Amendment rights.
Have a nice day.
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Old 05-27-2011, 16:02   #100
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