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Old 01-03-2011, 16:04   #161
dosei
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
A .308 is faster than a .223? What am I missing here?
Faster at the muzzle does not, in and of itself, result in a flatter trajectory, bullet weight and ballistic coefficient must be taken into account. The 223 is flatter at closer distances. But past 400 yards the 308 is faster, and past 700 yards the 308 is flatter.

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Old 01-03-2011, 16:54   #162
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
A .308 is faster than a .223? What am I missing here?
I'll owe up and admit that my remark was off the cuff...I didn't look at any comparable trajectory tables. The ballistics tables shown would suggest the .223 is flatter at shorter ranges.

My remark was based on apparently incorrect off-hand observations.

mea culpa
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Old 01-03-2011, 17:03   #163
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You skewed those numbers a little by using the light 55 grain TAP bullet against a 168 grain match bullet.


If you use the 75 grain match bullets you get a slightly different chart. With those bullets, the 5.56 shoots flatter all the way out to 1,000 yds.
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Old 01-03-2011, 17:14   #164
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Here's another one, using a 223 match load, showing similar performance, Notice that 7.62x51 only catches up at the 800 yd mark, and surpasses it at the 1,000 yd mark.


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However, when looking at these, you also have to take other things into account to get a grasp on performance. The 7.62, is moving just over twice the bullet, so it will resist wind drift better, and deliver more energy at that range.
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Old 01-03-2011, 17:54   #165
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Here's another one, using a 223 match load, showing similar performance, Notice that 7.62x51 only catches up at the 800 yd mark, and surpasses it at the 1,000 yd mark.

However, when looking at these, you also have to take other things into account to get a grasp on performance. The 7.62, is moving just over twice the bullet, so it will resist wind drift better, and deliver more energy at that range.
to me the difference that is even more important in the difference in energy at any range (55 vs 168).

also, please note that over 500 yards, anecdotal evidence i have heard is that 150 gr and 175 gr bullets shoot flatter than 168 gr

i qualified expert in the USMC and can pretty easily hit a 12x24 target at 500 yards with iron sights, using an M1A. my two shooting buddies have zero military experience, and we all shoot about equally well. their practice has more than caught up with my training. on many occasions, they have the ability to outshoot me. often it is a function of how familiar we are with the weapon we are using, and how old or young the eyes feel that day, or how much caffeine we started the day with...

military training and shooting skills are perishable. anyone who believes that a military-trained shooter will always outshoot a civilian shooter may be in for a surprise. it's all a function of training and perfect practice.

should the need arise, i expect to be able to reliably kill medium to large game (whitetails) and at 500 yards if necessary. if that's as close as i can get to the game, and i need to eat, then it is necessary. and i feel prepared to do it with iron sights and a 308.
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Old 01-03-2011, 18:31   #166
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r u aware that 223 AR-15's beat 308 autorifles at 1000 yd matches, every weekend, dudes? Just Google for NRA matches, ask at CSP forums, or AR-15.com. Baloney on the penetration, because you ain got Uncle Sugar to bring you more ammo, and baill you out if you bite off more than you can chew. The REAL pros gave up on the 308 rifle for the military, 40 odd years ago. Only armchair commandoes on the Net claim that it's still useful enough to be general issue. At best, it's a specialized item, like a grenade launcher.
Tell you what, Doby-do...

I've been shooting 600 and 1,000 yard matches for five years, including state, regional, and national championships. And I've won at least one state and one regional match. For 1,000 yards, the .284 Winchester caliber has taken over the F-open class, and the .308 is used for F-Target Rifle class. I haven't personally seen anyone shooting a .223 at a 1,000 yard match.

The .223 AR-15 is often used at 300- and 600-yards for F-Target Rifle, and can rule if the wind is light. But if the winds stiffen up, then the .308 with 175-grain and heavier bullets rule. I shoot in the Tennessee/ North Carolina and south area. Perhaps you've been shooting in a different area than I do.

The AR-15's need at least a 20- inch Heavy Barrel to be competitive. On mine I have a 26-inch, 1 in 7 twist, match barrel from White Oak Armory, and in light wind, it's deadly at 600.

If we get in a shooting war, I'd prefer to shoot my .284 from the roof of my 12-story building at 1,000 or so yards. I'll let you youngsters run around with your AR's and do the dirty work on the ground.

AND YES, the word NEED has NOTHING to do with firearms and ammunition.

The word WANT RULES!!!
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Old 01-03-2011, 19:07   #167
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You been asleep? EVERYONE here is a PHD/olympic athlete/millionaire/medal of honor winner/SEAL/married to a super model/who taught Jeff Cooper to shoot.
Once you get past that it all makes sense.
You failed to mention my Nobel Prize...
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Old 01-03-2011, 19:34   #168
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Do you "run" a car? Do you "run" a motorcycle?

You don't "operate" a firearm. You "shoot" it.


I studied English in school.
No when I drive my car it tends to run though.
I dont shoot my firearms, that would be a very expensive target. I operate the trigger wich inter drops the hammer, then ingniting the primer that cause the powder to burn. The hot gas from the burning powder seperates the bullet from the case. The bullet then exits the barrel at high speeds and intern lands on the given target. This is also know as operating a firearm. Can be replaced with running a firearm. Can also be replaced with "shooting" a firearm. It's all in reading comprehension The english language is a funny one isnt it?
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Old 01-03-2011, 20:01   #169
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Originally Posted by themighty9mm View Post
I dont shoot my firearms, that would be a very expensive target.

I'm with you and prefer to not shoot my guns...I'd rather go shooting with my guns!

...yet there are indeed those that insist on "shooting their guns"...
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Old 01-03-2011, 22:04   #170
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post

I'm with you and prefer to not shoot my guns...I'd rather go shooting with my guns!

...yet there are indeed those that insist on "shooting their guns"...
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:19   #171
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You don't "shoot" your gun in this case. You "shoot at" your gun in this case.

And yes, I was the culprit. Glocks are junkers that deserved to be destroyed.

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Originally Posted by dosei View Post

I'm with you and prefer to not shoot my guns...I'd rather go shooting with my guns!

...yet there are indeed those that insist on "shooting their guns"...
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:21   #172
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I operate the trigger
No, you pull the trigger. Unless you stand facing the gun and then push the trigger.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:29   #173
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Hey fnfalman...
Is your refrigerator running?


















Better go catch it!
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:43   #174
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I think anytime you get shot at, you wish for better cover.

However, I'm not arguing the AR/AK, or AR/AK/Whatever MBR vs another. What I'm saying is penetration is nice, but I've yet to see a real scenario where shots were intentionally fired through a barrier to reach a target on the other side. I have certainly fired plently of ammo at walls, and rocks to keep the guy on the other sides' head down, but I've never intentionally tried to shoot through something that was providing cover, with the intention of killing the guy on the other side. Nor do I have knowledge of it happening.

I think penetration is a good thing, and in an ideal situation, I would choose the bullet that penetrates more, so long as it doesn't give up anything to get that performance. The problem with many 308 MBR's is they give up accuracy, for the increased energy of the cartridge.
I have seen it and it was something called a 120mm HE round from a M1. Seriously, just get a Abrams tank and call it good. Oops, you all are talking about MBRs, not MBTs (Main Battle Tank). My bad!!!! Carry on.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:55   #175
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What you 'need' is a rifle that you would feel comfortable using under a wide variety of unpleasant situations. Only you can define what that rifle is.

Military combat experience is something that is extremely valuable. But people tend to want to apply a tool that they have been successful with to situations where it may not be ideal. And in most situations, I would agree that having experience and confidence with a 'less-than-ideal' weapon counts for a lot. Someone who can reliably hit their targets under adverse conditions with a .22lr is a LOT more valuable than the person with a .400 UltraShreikinLoudenBoomer capable of 2500 meter headshots who flinches when a sparrow farts.

Get what you like and practice with it enough to decide whether you wan to change. Use it in the rain, snow, and windy conditions so that you feel confident that you can hit regardless of the weather. Learn it's proper operation and practice immediate-action drills blindfolded. Don't be afraid to let your rifle get dirty, and look upon it's worn finish as a reflection of your ability with it.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:01   #176
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I've yet to see a real scenario where shots were intentionally fired through a barrier to reach a target on the other side. I have certainly fired plently of ammo at walls, and rocks to keep the guy on the other sides' head down, but I've never intentionally tried to shoot through something that was providing cover, with the intention of killing the guy on the other side. Nor do I have knowledge of it happening.
Really...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRYwMrsaLxs
Now you do...

Granted, the 50 is by no means a MBR. It is more of a hand-held shoulder-fired artillery piece.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:10   #177
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
No, you pull the trigger. Unless you stand facing the gun and then push the trigger.
You operate any mechanical device. Operate is a broad term. Can mean to push, pull, turn, crank ect
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:27   #178
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Originally Posted by themighty9mm View Post
You operate any mechanical device. Operate is a broad term. Can mean to push, pull, turn, crank ect
The trigger is not a mechanical device. It's a lever. The whole gun is a mechanical device. So, yes, you can "operate" a gun but that just means you're doing something with the gun and not necessarily "shoot" it. You can yank back the bolt and that "operates" the gun. You "shoot" the gun and the bullet comes flying out of the muzzle.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:28   #179
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My refrigerator runs like a top.

But I don't "run" my refrigerator.

Do you "run" your refrigerator?

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Hey fnfalman...
Is your refrigerator running?


















Better go catch it!
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:42   #180
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The trigger is not a mechanical device. It's a lever. The whole gun is a mechanical device. So, yes, you can "operate" a gun but that just means you're doing something with the gun and not necessarily "shoot" it. You can yank back the bolt and that "operates" the gun. You "shoot" the gun and the bullet comes flying out of the muzzle.
Dude it's all in reading comprehension like I already said. The english lanuguage is a pretty screwy language when it comes to this kinda thing Lol this could potentially get real technical and borderline retarded. So I have to assume you are just bored? As in the mental state of mind, not the wooden or planke type. (Sure the spelling is different so that should be a given. If one were to verbally say it though, they would sound exactly the same so you would used comprehension skills) The end result of all this is there are no winners. I'm right, your right, and thats that.
Well played on the trigger. So just for kicks. It is indeed a lever. A lever does do a function but needs something to "operate" the lever. A lever in itself is a simple mechanical device.
You "operate" a loaded gun and the bullet comes flying out of the muzzle
Again all the exact same meaning.
Can you comprehend it? lol
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