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Old 01-02-2011, 19:53   #121
JTLIII
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Realistically, how much range do you think you actually gain?

Since the 5.56 weapons are typically more accurate, and recoil less, as well as accept scopes better, I would challenge that while the 7.62 carries more energy, the 5.56 is probably going to be the more effective choice at most distances. Especially considering the general lack of accuracy I see from most shooters, I don't think the majority could employ a 7.62 rifle well enough to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage is brings to the table.


Secondly, what good is penetration really in terms of a SHTF rifle? I know people toss around how a 7.62 will go through a cinder block, and a 5.56 won't. But in all my years as a soldier, I've yet to see someone shoot through a wall to get to the guy on the other side. Typically, if you can't see them, you can't hit them. Plus most things that stop 5.56, will stop 7.62. The notable exception being some body armor that will stop 7.62 ball, will not stop some various flavors of 5.56.
I'm so very confused as to how you make out that the M14 is LESS accurate than the M16...

And that's very nice of you to assume all civilian shooters without your apparent expertise in shooting can't handle a 7.62MM
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:03   #122
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......irrelevant.

do

you

have

to use

bold every time??!!!!
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:19   #123
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i would not trust any 5.56x45 cartridge/bullet combination to be lethal at 800 yards.

it may put clean holes in paper but i would not trust it to do much more. it may be lethal, it may not. however lethal the 5.56 may be at 800 yards, the 7.62x51 would certainly retain more energy, so, imo, is preferable.
Well the 5.56 certainly is very leathal at 800 yards. Was talking to a buddy of mines brother last week. Was in iraq and afghanistan. Ofcoure the subject of guns came up. A few beers and stories later afghan was was in the mix. 5.56 does fine. He certainly prefers the 308 comin from a 240 or sr25 but the 5.56 will most definatly do. Lol the guy wont hardly say anything about any of it except with some beer. After some of his tales I understand much much better why
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:21   #124
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I'm curious but where in any military manuals; US and worldwide, I can find something that is called "Main Battle Rifle" or "Assault Rifle"? Definitions for these two things?

For the life of me, I never recalled any teachings in any TMs or FMs that called an M14 a "Main Battle Rifle" or an M16/M4 an "Assault Rifle".
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:25   #125
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And that's very nice of you to assume all civilian shooters without your apparent expertise in shooting can't handle a 7.62MM
He said MOST. Funny thing is go to an average civilian shooting range on an average day good weather low wind. Indeed a good percentage of them can't shoot to save there lives. A 5 shot group shot slow from a rest at 100 yards, and still missing the target. If its a bit coudly or windy it gets even worse. Ofcourse with some exceptions. That has been my experience anyways
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:26   #126
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I'm curious but where in any military manuals; US and worldwide, I can find something that is called "Main Battle Rifle" or "Assault Rifle"? Definitions for these two things?

For the life of me, I never recalled any teachings in any TMs or FMs that called an M14 a "Main Battle Rifle" or an M16/M4 an "Assault Rifle".
While I also have not seen those terms with the exception of the news. I beleive the m16a4 is the MBR of the usa
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:29   #127
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Not really. The .308 was designed to kill. The 5.56 was designed to grievously wound.
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:33   #128
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[QUOTE=AK_Stick;16569498]I know this, thats why if you notice, assault rifle was quoted.


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MORE accurate. A .308 in the right hands, particularly the M1A/M14 can easily kill a man at 800 yds. M1A's are frequently used in competition.

Yes, many M1a's are frequently used in competition, and in almost every single service rifle match I can find a posted listing of winners, scores and weapons used, the AR comes out on top. Including the king of all service rifle matches, at Camp Perry every year, where an AR has won for over the last decade. It also takes quite a bit more to keep a M1a in match winning accurate trim than a AR-15. They have to be continually re-bedded, and worked on. Where as a free floated AR-15 with a decent trigger and barrel, is almost maintenance free

The same thing has been found when we re-issued the M14 as a DMR rifle. While they could be made accurate, it takes alot more time, parts, and money to keep them that way.

You are correct, if you put a round into center mass at 800 yds, a 308 will cleanly kill a person at that range. Then again, if you put a 5.56 round into center mass at that range, it will also cleanly kill someone. It doesn't bring as much energy to the table, but energy is only one part of the equation.



No, it really wasn't this is an old wives tale. Its directly against the Hague accords to do that. Why would we design a bullet to do something we've signed, ratified, and continually abided since its induction even when we don't have to?





Current USMC qual is all the way out to 500 yds with a known distance timed fire target, the Army trains to 300 yds on a popup rifle course.
Lol not sure how you are catching so much greif But just about everything you have posted, has been my experience If not my direct experience then the knowledge I have gained from others with much more real world experience than I. The last bit about quals. Spot on. The bit about m1a's. Nobody can argue they see alot of competitions. Alot more work is most definatly involved to keep ir running competition ready. Thus from a SHTF/accuracy stand point the M1a wouldnt be the most likely best choice. Sorry bout the luck man
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:35   #129
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very true, but still he made it seem as though no military experience=no skillz.


I no great shot, I admit. But I can hold my own out to a few hundred yards, with the only formal training I received from Boy Scouts...and my Dad. I see the need for a "main battle rifle" but in a SHTF, I'll have my 10/22 match rifle and my R700 in 308. Screw a semi-auto battle rifle, I want hidden and super accurate.
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:40   #130
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Originally Posted by themighty9mm View Post
While I also have not seen those terms with the exception of the news. I beleive the m16a4 is the MBR of the usa
Those monikers were coined by the dumbass gunzine writers of the 1980s.
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Old 01-02-2011, 21:31   #131
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I'm so very confused as to how you make out that the M14 is LESS accurate than the M16...

And that's very nice of you to assume all civilian shooters without your apparent expertise in shooting can't handle a 7.62MM
In stock form, it's less accurate. You can make an M14 pattern rifle more accurate, but it's expensive (if you're not a gunsmith), and requires work every few thousand rounds to stay accurate. With the AR, all you need is a better barrel, a free-float tube, and a torque wrench.

I like the SCAR 17. I think it's the best 7.62x51 fighting rifle ever made, bar none, and if it were my job to do what the Rangers, SEALs, etc. in Afghanistan were doing, it's what I'd want. However, I think quite a few people here do not have realistic expectations about what qualities would be most useful to them in a rifle to be used in the scenario we're talking about, and I also think that even accomplished shooters often overestimate their capabilities in such a situation. For example, in a truly chaotic situation where law and order have essentially ceased to exist, do you intend to engage in long-range ambushes and offensive sniping? Realistically, these comprise the majority of situations in which we're hearing about 700 yard+ kills in Afghanistan. Unless you want to attract the attention of the invading army, corrupt government forces, or band of looting cannibals, these sorts of attacks would be unwise.

If you don't intend to shoot at unsuspecting targets, consider the alternative situation. You're engaged in a firefight with a guy or guys at 600 or 700 yards. They're shooting back, which means your heart is probably pounding, and some adrenaline is kicking in. I don't care how cool a customer you think you are, kiss some of your potential accuracy goodbye. Your target knows he's being shot at, which means he's moving and keeping his head down. Your shot just got even harder. Also, remember that if you're smart, you'll be moving as well, which means that you won't be shooting from a prepared position; prone or an expedient rest like a log or tree is the best you can realistically hope for.

With the above situation in mind, think of the last time you shot at a man-sized silhouette at 500 yards. Have you done it kneeling, or from a hastily-assumed prone position? Had you been hiking around all day beforehand, or had you just sprinted ten or twenty yards and dropped to the ground or behind cover? For me, keeping rounds from a semi-auto even vaguely in the center of mass in a human-sized target at 500 yards is pretty challenging, to make no mention of a moving target that's partially (or mostly) obscured.

There are certainly things a 7.62x51 will do that a 5.56x45 will not do. If you choose a 5.56, it is possible that you will die because you lack the range and penetration of the 7.62. However, you have to weigh that against the possibility that if you choose the 7.62, you will be killed because you run out of ammo, cannot shoot as rapidly, or have to change magazines more frequently. Unless I found myself in one of a few very specific situations, I'd choose the 5.56 or 5.45 weapon for general use.
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Old 01-02-2011, 21:48   #132
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Read through all these posts. Why is it that people think all ARs are .223 only? Some damn accurate .308s are ARs.
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Old 01-02-2011, 21:50   #133
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I don't think many folks can exploit the accuracy and range advantages of a 7.62x51 rifle over a 5.56x45 rifle in a combat situation. In fact I'd say most folks couldn't use a 5.56x45 rifle at 300 yards very effectively either.

Before anyone protests... how many have even looked at a "Q-target" at 300 yards? Its not that easy to hit it. Now, what if the Q was kneeling, or prone... What if it was popping up (like the Army course)... It gets harder and harder... Now imagine that your pretty hungry... pretty sore... pretty tired... you may have had to run (I imagine that's hard enough for most individuals nowadays)...

Is there situations where 7.62x51 is an advantage, hell yeah... But it weighs more (the ammo and the rifle both generally), meaning you can carry less, kicks harder (slower followups, which you'll likely be needing)...

Me personally, I like the plain old 20" AR-15... It does what I need it to, and it works. Its not, uber-tactical, but it can do everything pretty well, I restaked the gas-key on mine, but I haven't had any problem with it either before or after...

But personally, You probably wont need anything more than the old fashioned shotgun with a selection of slugs and buckshot... and a decent pistol...

Assuming you have the above, the AR is just icing on the cake, and the MBR (or whatever you wanna call it) is gravy.

TL:DR:

Spend as much as you want if it makes you happy, or you have precieved needs for a platform... just realize your only getting incrementally greater functionality.
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Old 01-02-2011, 22:39   #134
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Plus - They piss off Liberals!

Liberals hate em!
Republicans hate them more they even banned them from import...
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Old 01-02-2011, 23:04   #135
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Originally Posted by JTLIII View Post
very true, but still he made it seem as though no military experience=no skillz.


I no great shot, I admit. But I can hold my own out to a few hundred yards, with the only formal training I received from Boy Scouts...and my Dad. I see the need for a "main battle rifle" but in a SHTF, I'll have my 10/22 match rifle and my R700 in 308. Screw a semi-auto battle rifle, I want hidden and super accurate.


I've never said that, as far as I know, in any thread. I said most shooters will not be able to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage that 7.62x51mm enjoys over 5.56, because, A. the majority are not good enough shots. And B. The majority of MBR style rifles in 7.62x51mm, are not as accurate as rifles in 5.56.
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Old 01-02-2011, 23:31   #136
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I don't really want to take exception with people on here who I'm sure have more knowledge of fire arms than I do, but I've seen first hand a .308 against an AR at 300 yards. I had the .308 with iron sights...the guy next to me had an AR with a scope. I was hitting paper he was not...not even close.

I think it's training more than anything. The guy next to me kept fiddling with his scope and it was obvious he didn't know how to use it. While my BLR was sighted in for 200 yards and it only took a slight correction to hit at 300. The flatter trajectory of the .308 certainly makes that correction easy.

While he had to compensate considerably more (his AR was sighted in at 100 yards, or at least that's what he said) and I believe he set the clicks on his scope in the opposite direction from what he should have (just a guess since I don't use a scope).

To me training and practice with the tools you have whatever they are is the key. I'm sure there are guys who have ARs who can shoot circles around me, but in this case it was the other way around because of training and practice.

Your mileage may vary
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:30   #137
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I've never said that, as far as I know, in any thread. I said most shooters will not be able to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage that 7.62x51mm enjoys over 5.56, because, A. the majority are not good enough shots. And B. The majority of MBR style rifles in 7.62x51mm, are not as accurate as rifles in 5.56.
what I don't get is how you say the caliber makes it less accurate.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:53   #138
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Only .308 I got is a heavy bbl Savage. All my JIC guns are 7.62x39 or 5.56mm. I sleep just fine.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:02   #139
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I don't really want to take exception with people on here who I'm sure have more knowledge of fire arms than I do, but I've seen first hand a .308 against an AR at 300 yards. I had the .308 with iron sights...the guy next to me had an AR with a scope. I was hitting paper he was not...not even close.

I think it's training more than anything. The guy next to me kept fiddling with his scope and it was obvious he didn't know how to use it. While my BLR was sighted in for 200 yards and it only took a slight correction to hit at 300. The flatter trajectory of the .308 certainly makes that correction easy.

While he had to compensate considerably more (his AR was sighted in at 100 yards, or at least that's what he said) and I believe he set the clicks on his scope in the opposite direction from what he should have (just a guess since I don't use a scope).

To me training and practice with the tools you have whatever they are is the key. I'm sure there are guys who have ARs who can shoot circles around me, but in this case it was the other way around because of training and practice.

Your mileage may vary
All that means is the guy next to you didn't know how to run his gun.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:18   #140
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All that means is the guy next to you didn't know how to run his gun.
I don't know how to run my guns either. I know how to shoot them, but run them? I must admit that I am ignorant.
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