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Old 01-02-2011, 12:55   #101
G29Reload
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
the term MBR, is mostly a term used by shooters to differentiate between 7.62 caliber rifles, and 5.56 "assault" rifles.
Fail. Assault Rifle is a term wrongly dumped on us by the gun control people like Sarah Brady.

A true assault rifle is a mid power rifle, the original of which would be the German's STG 44, more powerful than a pistol but not quite a full-power/hi-power rifle round (like 7.62x39) or an intermediate power rifle round with SELECT FIRE capabilities. No nation in its right mind would send its assault troops into battle without select fire capability.

Unless you have a Class III/Title II weapon, you do NOT have an assault rifle.

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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
The full power rifles have their place, but they're usually heavy, less accurate, and more expensive than their smaller brethren.
MORE accurate. A .308 in the right hands, particularly the M1A/M14 can easily kill a man at 800 yds. M1A's are frequently used in competition.

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If you have a quality AR/AK, than no, you don't "need" a MBR.
Not really. The .308 was designed to kill. The 5.56 was designed to grievously wound. Not that it can't kill.

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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
They'll do everything a 7.62 caliber rifle will do.
No they will not. Not even close.

AK: 150yds effectively.
AR: 300yds effectively. (Current qual range for the USMC)
M14: 6-800 yds.

AK's are less accurate. That run-all-the-time no fail rep they have is due to loser tolerances. Less accurate. Power of a 30-30.

5.56 and 308 are more accurate.

Every man should own, and know how to use, a rifle capable of going to war. -Some famous general, I forget.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:57   #102
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Restless - my opinion on your question:

No I don't think you "need" one. as I have said before - someone with a .357 revolver and a 12g 870 is probably as SHTF armed as anyone really needs to be. Toss the carbine of your choice in there - and you are all set to hunker down and defend the home. If you feel you need mor umph than that - I will always say go with something .30 cal or better, be it a .30-.30 lever, an AK, or a full on M1/FAL or whatever.

I prefer the .30 cal because:

It simply has sufficient accuracy and more stopping power period at the ranges I am concerned about - 0 to 200 yards.

Hey - could there be a situation where stopping a large truck is necessary? Sure. Better have the Barrett handy! But whether its stopping with less shots, hunting, shooting through something, I like .30 cal.

Set your priorities and start buying from there. for me, for SHTF it was:

#1 Personal Handgun 9mm
#2 Shotgun 12g
#3 Carbine 7.62x39
#4 .22
#5 Bolt gun .270
#6 - everything else...
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:59   #103
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Wow, must have hit a nerve.

For a guy who claims to have been shooting longer than I've been alive, and has a PHD, you make an awful lot of assumptions that are so off base as to be comical.

I'm not interested in debating you anymore, you're wrong, but you're so obsessed with proving me wrong that facts, and common sense aren't going to sway you. You're just going to focus blindly upon your attack of me, even if what you're saying is patently incorrect. All you are doing is clouding whats been a rather decent thread with a bunch of arguing and throwing out answers before you've even taken the time to understand what I've said.


Its really come down to a you're older, you obviously know more than me, which why you've gone to great pains to point out how long I could have been in the service, and taken some mighty assumptions about my experience both with the military and outside.


Congrats, you win.
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Old 01-02-2011, 13:01   #104
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Cool! G29 is playing now too!!!!! Good points!!!

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Old 01-02-2011, 13:07   #105
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I have a .357 lever action, and 2 pump shotguns. I am good to about 100 yards. I really don't think i will need more than that. I mean I don't live in the 'Green Zone.'
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Old 01-02-2011, 13:09   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
Fail. Assault Rifle is a term wrongly dumped on us by the gun control people like Sarah Brady.

A true assault rifle is a mid power rifle, the original of which would be the German's STG 44, more powerful than a pistol but not quite a full-power/hi-power rifle round (like 7.62x39) or an intermediate power rifle round with SELECT FIRE capabilities. No nation in its right mind would send its assault troops into battle without select fire capability.

Unless you have a Class III/Title II weapon, you do NOT have an assault rifle.
I know this, thats why if you notice, assault rifle was quoted.


[QUOTE=G29Reload;16569416]
MORE accurate. A .308 in the right hands, particularly the M1A/M14 can easily kill a man at 800 yds. M1A's are frequently used in competition.

Yes, many M1a's are frequently used in competition, and in almost every single service rifle match I can find a posted listing of winners, scores and weapons used, the AR comes out on top. Including the king of all service rifle matches, at Camp Perry every year, where an AR has won for over the last decade. It also takes quite a bit more to keep a M1a in match winning accurate trim than a AR-15. They have to be continually re-bedded, and worked on. Where as a free floated AR-15 with a decent trigger and barrel, is almost maintenance free

The same thing has been found when we re-issued the M14 as a DMR rifle. While they could be made accurate, it takes alot more time, parts, and money to keep them that way.

You are correct, if you put a round into center mass at 800 yds, a 308 will cleanly kill a person at that range. Then again, if you put a 5.56 round into center mass at that range, it will also cleanly kill someone. It doesn't bring as much energy to the table, but energy is only one part of the equation.

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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
Not really. The .308 was designed to kill. The 5.56 was designed to grievously wound. Not that it can't kill.
No, it really wasn't this is an old wives tale. Its directly against the Hague accords to do that. Why would we design a bullet to do something we've signed, ratified, and continually abided since its induction even when we don't have to?



Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
AK: 150yds effectively.
AR: 300yds effectively. (Current qual range for the USMC)
M14: 6-800 yds.

AK's are less accurate. That run-all-the-time no fail rep they have is due to loser tolerances. Less accurate. Power of a 30-30.
Current USMC qual is all the way out to 500 yds with a known distance timed fire target, the Army trains to 300 yds on a popup rifle course.
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Old 01-02-2011, 13:11   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Wow, must have hit a nerve.

For a guy who claims to have been shooting longer than I've been alive, and has a PHD, you make an awful lot of assumptions that are so off base as to be comical.

I'm not interested in debating you anymore, you're wrong, but you're so obsessed with proving me wrong that facts, and common sense aren't going to sway you. You're just going to focus blindly upon your attack of me, even if what you're saying is patently incorrect. All you are doing is clouding whats been a rather decent thread with a bunch of arguing and throwing out answers before you've even taken the time to understand what I've said.


Its really come down to a you're older, you obviously know more than me, which why you've gone to great pains to point out how long I could have been in the service, and taken some mighty assumptions about my experience both with the military and outside.


Congrats, you win.

You been asleep? EVERYONE here is a PHD/olympic athlete/millionaire/medal of honor winner/SEAL/married to a super model/who taught Jeff Cooper to shoot.
Once you get past that it all makes sense.
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Old 01-02-2011, 13:42   #108
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post

Congrats, you win.
No win - just providing an opportunity for you not to lose. Tragic you didn't pick up on that from the last round.

And just because I'm old doesn't mean I know anything. But as an "old" guy, I'll say that one of the best things a young guy can do is not cop an attitude like he knows more than an old guy. All age gives you is an opportunity to have learned some things. I have met some old guys that don't know crap.

And just because you are young doesn't mean you don't know anything either.

But just the way talk suggests you do a lot more talking than listening...

beauty of the internet - it's all anonymous. Worst place in the world to meet people who don't know jack but want to talk big and make themselves feel important. it's full of opinions. You have yours, I have mine. I just feel your opinions are not entirely accurate. The reader will just have to decide for themselves...
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:35   #109
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
You are correct, if you put a round into center mass at 800 yds, a 308 will cleanly kill a person at that range. Then again, if you put a 5.56 round into center mass at that range, it will also cleanly kill someone. It doesn't bring as much energy to the table, but energy is only one part of the equation.
Wait, what?

At that range you'd have to carry it personally. It probably fell into the dirt 100 yds ago.

If it made 800 yds it would probably bounce off a t-shirt. All 62 grains of it!

What flavor of bourbon are you drinking?
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:39   #110
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[QUOTE=AK_Stick;16569498]

Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
MORE accurate. A .308 in the right hands, particularly the M1A/M14 can easily kill a man at 800 yds. M1A's are frequently used in competition.

Yes, many M1a's are frequently used in competition, and in almost every single service rifle match I can find a posted listing of winners, scores and weapons used, the AR comes out on top. Including the king of all service rifle matches, at Camp Perry every year, where an AR has won for over the last decade.
Not at 800 yds!

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The same thing has been found when we re-issued the M14 as a DMR rifle. While they could be made accurate, it takes alot more time, parts, and money to keep them that way.
Irrelevant.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:43   #111
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AK_stick - There is going to be more smack run on you than opium snorted off of an underaged thai hooker in a hookah bar Bangkok!




I think you need to take that PhD and wipe all that snot dripping from your nose.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:43   #112
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I have a .357 lever action, and 2 pump shotguns. I am good to about 100 yards. I really don't think i will need more than that. I mean I don't live in the 'Green Zone.'
OK, so you're hunkering down in the 'burbs.

By green zone, you mean where I live. Rural areas. Surrounded by farms and open land.

My M1A isnt getting sold anytime soon. I can put a circle of safety around my place in short order. It's 100 yds to the street, to say nothing of the 1000 yds of open land I can see from the roof.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:44   #113
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The current issue long range round for the 5.56 is the 77 grain OTM matchking bullet in the mod 262 LR loading.


I know everyone likes to poke fun at the 5.56, because it won't buck the wind like the heavier 7.62 rounds. But if you think its going to bounce off at 800 yds, you have a very rude awakening ahead.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:48   #114
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Ah... religious wars! Or to put it another way: Huns to the left, Visigoths to the right!

Most people can't hit a barn door at 800 meters, much less kill something at that range. YES, there are specialists (dare I use the term sniper) who can successfully engage targets at that range and beyond. But if you want to KILL something that far out, it's often a .300 WSM, a .50 cal, etc., because of the requisite for decent TERMINAL ballistics.

Let's all take a break here and look at Glock pron. Personally, I save my AR15 porn for the web site that has that name, LOL.

OK, Fight On...
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:53   #115
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[QUOTE=G29Reload;16569946]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post



Not at 800 yds!



Irrelevant.


Actually, yes, they do win at 800 yds. The long High Power matches are 1,000 yds, and in the service rifle classes, those are again almost always dominated by AR-15's.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:55   #116
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Plus - They piss off Liberals!

Liberals hate em!
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:58   #117
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
The current issue long range round for the 5.56 is the 77 grain OTM matchking bullet in the mod 262 LR loading.


I know everyone likes to poke fun at the 5.56, because it won't buck the wind like the heavier 7.62 rounds. But if you think its going to bounce off at 800 yds, you have a very rude awakening ahead.
For me (at this time in my life), the AR platform does what I need it to do.

My M1A is a rifle that has been on my short list for many, many years, and I finally got it. (And I'm VERY pleased with it!) However, I won't be my first choice IF I have to 'do battle'.

Now, IF needed, I'd reach for my AR-HBAR.
What I'd really like to do is find the best flat-top (complete) upper with a 16" barrel and mid-length handguard/gas system. My eyesight is going (with age) and I'm wanting something with a 'dot' sight, or some other optical sight.
But. . . . I'm not sure of who makes the best for the $$$!!!!
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Old 01-02-2011, 17:29   #118
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i would not trust any 5.56x45 cartridge/bullet combination to be lethal at 800 yards.

it may put clean holes in paper but i would not trust it to do much more. it may be lethal, it may not. however lethal the 5.56 may be at 800 yards, the 7.62x51 would certainly retain more energy, so, imo, is preferable.
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Old 01-02-2011, 17:37   #119
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The current issue long range round for the 5.56 is the 77 grain OTM matchking bullet in the mod 262 LR loading.
In platforms that have been twisted up to 1-7. The old 1-9 won't stabilize much beyond 62-68 gr at most.

The AR platform is not a 1000yd weapon.
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Old 01-02-2011, 17:47   #120
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The caliber selection is dependent on the range. I am a fan of the .223 and the .308. The AR Platform can be very accurate. So can a bolt gun or semi auto in .308.

The .308 guns were not retired due to accuracy. It was due to weight and training. They really didn't retire. They are still used by special operations and sniper units world wide.

If a long range target needs to be engaged, and terminal energy and penetration is required, the .308 wins hands down. When I was much younger, with an M1 Garand, if I could see it, I could shoot it. The same for HK's, Fal's, M14's, Mausers, Springfields, Mosin's, and Lee Enfields.

The .223 guns are great out to 500 yds and beyond in target matches, but for shooting vehicles and cover, the big guns will win that match every time.
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Old 01-02-2011, 18:53   #121
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Realistically, how much range do you think you actually gain?

Since the 5.56 weapons are typically more accurate, and recoil less, as well as accept scopes better, I would challenge that while the 7.62 carries more energy, the 5.56 is probably going to be the more effective choice at most distances. Especially considering the general lack of accuracy I see from most shooters, I don't think the majority could employ a 7.62 rifle well enough to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage is brings to the table.


Secondly, what good is penetration really in terms of a SHTF rifle? I know people toss around how a 7.62 will go through a cinder block, and a 5.56 won't. But in all my years as a soldier, I've yet to see someone shoot through a wall to get to the guy on the other side. Typically, if you can't see them, you can't hit them. Plus most things that stop 5.56, will stop 7.62. The notable exception being some body armor that will stop 7.62 ball, will not stop some various flavors of 5.56.
I'm so very confused as to how you make out that the M14 is LESS accurate than the M16...

And that's very nice of you to assume all civilian shooters without your apparent expertise in shooting can't handle a 7.62MM
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:03   #122
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......irrelevant.

do

you

have

to use

bold every time??!!!!
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:19   #123
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i would not trust any 5.56x45 cartridge/bullet combination to be lethal at 800 yards.

it may put clean holes in paper but i would not trust it to do much more. it may be lethal, it may not. however lethal the 5.56 may be at 800 yards, the 7.62x51 would certainly retain more energy, so, imo, is preferable.
Well the 5.56 certainly is very leathal at 800 yards. Was talking to a buddy of mines brother last week. Was in iraq and afghanistan. Ofcoure the subject of guns came up. A few beers and stories later afghan was was in the mix. 5.56 does fine. He certainly prefers the 308 comin from a 240 or sr25 but the 5.56 will most definatly do. Lol the guy wont hardly say anything about any of it except with some beer. After some of his tales I understand much much better why
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:21   #124
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I'm curious but where in any military manuals; US and worldwide, I can find something that is called "Main Battle Rifle" or "Assault Rifle"? Definitions for these two things?

For the life of me, I never recalled any teachings in any TMs or FMs that called an M14 a "Main Battle Rifle" or an M16/M4 an "Assault Rifle".
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:25   #125
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And that's very nice of you to assume all civilian shooters without your apparent expertise in shooting can't handle a 7.62MM
He said MOST. Funny thing is go to an average civilian shooting range on an average day good weather low wind. Indeed a good percentage of them can't shoot to save there lives. A 5 shot group shot slow from a rest at 100 yards, and still missing the target. If its a bit coudly or windy it gets even worse. Ofcourse with some exceptions. That has been my experience anyways
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