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Old 01-01-2011, 17:07   #81
denn1911
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Good points already stated. I hope that those who believe the "racking of the shotgun's action" will deter an intruder become better educated. What will they do when a violent intruder does not turn and run away in sheer terror? Training and proper education will help home owners have a well thought out plan and a secondary (or third) plan.
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Old 01-01-2011, 17:59   #82
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.....

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Old 01-02-2011, 14:52   #83
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Maybe I am jelous I cannot multi quote like that.
never have figured it out.
two ways. You can either cut and paste each segment and then use the little "word ballon" icon on the reply box or you can quote the entire text and then insert html at each point you want to break out. Shoot me a PM and I'll talk you through it.
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I think the 4 guys rushing your house is a good example of where having gun loaded all the way would be an advantage.
Do you think it at all possible that you may forget to rack a round in chamber under stress?
To be fair without practice and working on Muscle memory you may just as easily forget the safety.
Don't see the advantage. If you are so hard-pressed that you cannot get a moment to shove spare ammo in the gun it is doubtful that having an extra round or so will matter. And my experience is that far more people forget to hit the safety than forget to rack the shotgun.
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I mean what if we take the shotgun thing out of it! What if you just have a Glock 17 and same situation we have been talking about happens.
Would you rack slide on the 17 in hopes of some intimidation? or just have it loaded and give them a firm verbal warning?
Either one. If I don't have the chamber loaded it is not a big deal, you just chamber the round as you you pick the gun up. To me none of it really matters, to me the main issue is to try to reduce the loss of resources. Anything that helps to get the BG to go somewhere else does that, be it racking, yelling, threatening, etc.
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So for me I like to have my weapon as close to ready as I can, and i depend on how I talk to get my point across.
That is fine for you. For others, however, keeping the shotgun loaded to the hilt for SD is not so fine. It is a balance of cost versus benefit, and many factors come into play.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:55   #84
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Originally Posted by PATRICE View Post
Hhmmm...Well, I was always led to believe that if I was somewhere I wasn't supposed to be, and I heard a distinctive noise such as the topic under discussion---I was told that it would be prudent to commence firing in the direction of said sound.--Patrice
Do you and the folks giving this advice often break in to other peoples houses in order to commit crimes?

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Old 01-02-2011, 15:20   #85
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two ways. You can either cut and paste each segment and then use the little "word ballon" icon on the reply box or you can quote the entire text and then insert html at each point you want to break out. Shoot me a PM and I'll talk you through it.

Don't see the advantage. If you are so hard-pressed that you cannot get a moment to shove spare ammo in the gun it is doubtful that having an extra round or so will matter. And my experience is that far more people forget to hit the safety than forget to rack the shotgun.

Either one. If I don't have the chamber loaded it is not a big deal, you just chamber the round as you you pick the gun up. To me none of it really matters, to me the main issue is to try to reduce the loss of resources. Anything that helps to get the BG to go somewhere else does that, be it racking, yelling, threatening, etc.

That is fine for you. For others, however, keeping the shotgun loaded to the hilt for SD is not so fine. It is a balance of cost versus benefit, and many factors come into play.
I read your blog and I more clearly understand your stance now.

You are right some should just have the chamber empty there seems to be a %s of gun owners who don't take this very seriously.

I work part time at a gun shop and have had my fair share of folks point there loaded pistol at me not realizing what they have done.

I always let them know my displeasure with it!!

One thing I always tell folks is to get yourself a 7 gal bucket and fill it full of sand and maybe get a nice thick phone book. unload and load over that.

Yes the safety seems to be the downfall of many I practice the same things over and over again in hope of building that muscle memory.
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Old 01-02-2011, 15:31   #86
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Based on what I've read on internet forums...the ideal home security system consists of an audio tape that combines:
- barking dogs
- a pump shortgun being racked
- along with a manly man voice shouting..."hey...I'm armed and dangerous"

A generous spreading of carpet tacks in front of all windows and doors completes the package...hmmm....maybe that's for sailboats in pirate areas???
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Old 01-02-2011, 16:02   #87
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Originally Posted by CharlestonG26 View Post
Based on what I've read on internet forums...the ideal home security system consists of an audio tape that combines:
- barking dogs
- a pump shortgun being racked
- along with a manly man voice shouting..."hey...I'm armed and dangerous"



Correction " I'm armed, dangerous, horney, gay, AND have AIDS."
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Old 01-02-2011, 17:04   #88
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Originally Posted by bug View Post
For 95%
Any noise would work
BOO
hello
shotgun sound
whatever
they hear you there gone.
I agree - as for the remaining 5%, as you said; You should be waiting for them with a 100% ready to go weapon, finger on trigger. They can't close 10 ft in the time it takes to pull the trigger. Coming at me is a threat period if I'm in that condition - announcement or no.

As I said - I find it very disturbing the group that seems to WANT to turn that 95% into the 5% by their actions.
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Old 01-04-2011, 14:19   #89
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
...
Imagine explaining it to the police this way,
...
That's up to your lawyer.

Why anyone would say anything to the police when there is a chance of anything more then a traffic citation is beyond me.
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Old 01-04-2011, 15:36   #90
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I think it has happened many times in the past and will continue to happen in the future. Most criminals don't want to shoot it out to the death. There is a reason why having a firearm present will deter most crimes. Many of people have been scared off by the sound of a shotgun. With that said, I keep mine with a round in the chamber.

I would think part of this discussion has to include the voices of law enforcement. Normally a patrol shotgun is caried without one in the chamber. If an officer pulls up on someone and deploys a shotgun, it is going to make more sound than pulling a pistol. I know I would be intimidated by the presence (audible or otherwise) of a shotgun.
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Old 01-04-2011, 20:35   #91
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Normally a patrol shotgun is caried without one in the chamber.
And I'm sure that's for safety's sake. Safety is also a priority for me and I'm sure I have a whole lot less training than a professional LEO.

It's just a personal choice; you're prepared for an immediate response or you have to perform a single action before you're prepared to respond. If I'm not in immediate danger I'm opting for safety first.
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:57   #92
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And I'm sure that's for safety's sake. Safety is also a priority for me and I'm sure I have a whole lot less training than a professional LEO.

It's just a personal choice; you're prepared for an immediate response or you have to perform a single action before you're prepared to respond. If I'm not in immediate danger I'm opting for safety first.
Good point. There are a lot of shotguns (and other guns) out there that are not drop safe, so leaving them chambered is not a particularly safe method of storage.

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Old 01-05-2011, 12:38   #93
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Not everybody and this includes home invaders know guns or know the sound of guns. Also most houses arnt exactly a studio apartment. Walls deflect sound to a extent. If you are in your bdrm and they are in your living room or garage or basement may be a decent chance they dont hear it all.I'd suggest learn how to be effective with your gun instead of hoping for a just a sound
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Old 01-05-2011, 21:03   #94
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Originally Posted by Uncle T-bone View Post
I only want the bad person in front of my shotgun to see a bright flash and hear a loud boom and then maybe, just maybe hear me rack it...
anything less than this gives away your position. Good post above.
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Old 01-05-2011, 21:06   #95
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I'm with David Armstrong on this one.

1. I don't believe for a moment that there is any magical power to a shotgun rack. It's essentially saying "I am armed" in a way that leaves no room for them to think you're bluffing. There are times when that warning alone is enough to help. But it's not magical. Effective warnings, however--of every sort--, have been shown to be enough in a meaningful number of encounters.

2. But even if it's not enough, how on earth can it hurt? If you're going to speak up and provide a warning ANYWAY, then you're going to give away your position. And you always run the risk that they'll think you are bluffing. Drunk/drug altered persons tend to have false senses of aggression and bravery. Why not meet the issue head on right away?

If you want to stay quiet, then do. Nothing says you MUST rack your shotgun. Just that you can if you want to.

3. An effective warning also helps to know exactly what/who you are dealing with. If you give them a clear warning, they know you are armed, and you have communicated it effectively and they STILL stay, you know you either have an unwell person (mentally or chemically/drugged) or a human predator. Either way, you know you're not just dealing with a kid that wanted to smash and grab when no one was in.

Either way, if you intended to provide a warning, you loose nothing with the shotgun rack and perhaps gained something by making your warning crystal clear.
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:40   #96
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Again - I don't think anybody here REALLY believes that the mere rack is an actual tool to be used...I have not seen anyone who has said other than "The sound is incidental, and it could be effective"

But no one is actively racking with the pure intent or expectation that it is sufficient by itself.
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:46   #97
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actually I think they are. Hoping at least that after they rack, then bad guy splits. From the tone of many many internet forums and ftf conversations, there are too many people who consider that a first step to defense.

I think we all need to be as mentally prepared as humanly possible for "stopping the intruder" portion of this equation.

I was/am and old 11b infantrymen, and it was drilled into us that silence is key to a surprise attack. If a guy is armed, he will know where I am by the muzzle flash, not the sound of my weapon...other than a distinctive Boom. Can't stress this enough. Do not give a bad guy in your home any advantages. He/she is not in there for any other reason that to do harm or take something from you...possessions, or you or your family.

If it reaches the point that you are aware and armed, you are already past the early stages of self defense.

I don't think you have to warn when the threat is already in your home.
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Old 01-06-2011, 13:29   #98
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actually I think they are. Hoping at least that after they rack, then bad guy splits. From the tone of many many internet forums and ftf conversations, there are too many people who consider that a first step to defense.
I would suggest it is a good first step. It is a step that has a fairly high probability of ending the problem without much downside and a large upside.
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I think we all need to be as mentally prepared as humanly possible for "stopping the intruder" portion of this equation.
One can be prepared to stop the home intruder just as well if one includes a warning of some type as if they do not.
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I was/am and old 11b infantrymen, and it was drilled into us that silence is key to a surprise attack.
What makes good tactics for combat zones does not alwys make good tactics for non-combat. Unless things have changed since I was in, you were also taught that when on guard duty you always challenged (Halt! Who goes there?) instead of just shooting without any warning.
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If a guy is armed, he will know where I am by the muzzle flash, not the sound of my weapon...other than a distinctive Boom. Can't stress this enough. Do not give a bad guy in your home any advantages.
How does warning the BG to leave give up any advantages? You still have your gun, you still have (or should have) the dominant position in a defensive posture, and so on.
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He/she is not in there for any other reason that to do harm or take something from you...possessions, or you or your family.
So why would you want to do stuff to keep him around instead of stuff to encourage him to go away?
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If it reaches the point that you are aware and armed, you are already past the early stages of self defense.
I don't think you have to warn when the threat is already in your home.
There are lots of things you don't have to do that are still good ideas. And that is the essence of it, to me. Giving a warning costs nothing, and has a lot of potential for gain. Starting a bunch of bullets flying around in a house where one's family is located should be a last choice, not a first choice.

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Old 01-06-2011, 15:33   #99
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all good points.

I still differ in opinion, that a person needs to be mentally prepared for the what after I shuck a shell into this gun. I see and hear of folks that think I will do this and the gun will run away, then are not prepared for whats next.


your point is well taken. I hope the bad guy leaves if you warn them, but if they start shooting you no longer have the advantage of knowing where they are and them not you.
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Old 01-06-2011, 23:37   #100
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The magpul guys had an interesting take on this. They suggested that the racking is a posturing behavior. Some will want to, some won't. Personally, they don't believe in posturing as a necessary step in a self defense situation. They said they don't use a pump with hopes to scare anyone, they use a pump to shoot someone.

But they also left it up to the student and suggested that posturing may play some role in their self defense behaviors, just be consistant in what you do and why you do it.

I'm simply passing the info along.
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