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Old 12-30-2010, 20:43   #76
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
Still can't see any problem. First, ignoring something that works 95% of the time in favor of the 5% is a bit questionable to start with, but even so if you do rack you haven't lost anything in the 5% situations.

Again, what would that be? The BG now knows you have a shotgun. He doesn't know anything beyond that. He doesn't know how many rounds you have, what other guns you have, your skill, or anything else.
My thought on these kind of things is simple.

Yes, but some choices tend to increase the potential for problems while some tend to decrease the potential for problems. In other words, not all choices offer the same results. And again, racking the shotgun (or any gun) doesn't change the scenario at all from a defensive position. This really is one of those situations where the potential gain is quite large and the potential loss is virtually nonexistent.

And would yo think they are more likely to choose to leave if they know somebody has a firearm and is waitign for them, or if they do not?

You might be surprised how small that advantage is, especially depending on the tactics one chooses.


Again, how would pumping the shotgun have changed anything there?
You like the quote thing don't ya.

you seem to leave the parts out you don't like though

I have said I think twice in this thread that I believe in giving a warning.
And would do so if I believed it would help.

As well we all seem to agree it would in most cases.

however I would have a fully loaded gun in hand with the safety off if so equipped when I made my announcement.

"I have called tho police they are on there way.LEAVE NOW.

For 95%
Any noise would work
BOO
hello
shotgun sound
whatever
they hear you there gone.

Force on force training I have done some not a lot
If you are talking about the distance that a human can cover in average gunfight distance.
yes I am aware most can not draw and fire before a fast person can cover that ground. 7yrds?
Is that what you are referring too?
That is why I keep quiet till I am ready then show my hand If you have a small house you are right your advantage is smaller.

About the video you are saying that if you have a lets moss 590 that holds 8+1
And I have it ready with 9 rounds take safety off ready to go in the little span of time.

And you have 8 in the tube none in the chamber so you have to rack take safety off put one in tube in the same span of time.

I have no advantage?
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Old 12-30-2010, 20:49   #77
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Originally Posted by LilWolfess View Post
Wow. Look at all this childlike bickering.

Here's a post from a small woman's (my) perspective.

I moved into a fairly craphole apartment this summer. I knew there was a little suspicious action going on, but I figured it was just the stupid sort of stuff like pot dealing and a party or two. The landlord assured me that it was a very quiet place and that everyone there was clean and decent and that I wouldn't be bothered in the least.

The first mistake I made was to simply trust the word of my partner in crime (I stayed in the place for the summer, so when he came back for school, he'd have a sure cheap place to live. I didn't even look at the place before signing (knew the landlord sorta, had also viewed apartments in the same building etc.).

Second mistake was not just calling the whole thing off when my gut instinct said the place was bad.

On the second day of being there I got a frantic knock on the door at about 9:45pm. I wasn't expecting anyone, so I just yelled through the paper thin door, "WHO IS IT??"

"It's Ramiro!!"

I don't know any Ramiros.

"Ah...What do you want?"

"I am lookin' for Jose."

I don't know anybody by that name either, and it's for sure not the guy who used to live there, since I learned that his name was Mike.

"No one's here. I just moved in."

"oh...ok"

I started going back to unpacking and cleaning my Glock, but before I'd even taken two steps, there was more pounding on the door. I was getting kinda frustrated and a little nervous, because a normal person would've just left.

"Who is it!?!"

"Ramiro again."

"What do you want!?"

"Can I come in??"

Can I come in?? This had the effect of making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I went immediately to my bedroom, and picked up my 870, and began loading it as quickly as I could. As I was doing this, the Mr. Ramiro jiggled the door handle.

In reply, while I frantically looked around for my phone, I yelled:

"NO! Go away!!"

"It's okay B----, I just want to look around."

Look around?! Really!?! I didn't really think that was what he wanted, and I still couldn't find where I'd left my cellphone. I was also thinking of just how weak and thin the door was. I could've easily kicked through it myself, and the latch was a joke (not even a deadbolt lock). The guy finally started trying the door pretty forcefully.

I put a shell in the chamber and pointed my shotgun at the door, which I figured was going to get yanked open at any second.

All I heard was "Oh----sorry!" and the sound of something heavy crashing down the stairs. (I later had a really long giggle over the falling down the stairs bit after the adrenaline had worn off).

I reported the event. From my perspective, very very few people that are about to cause trouble will listen to the angry shouts of a small woman. This doesn't mean that you should EVER trust that telltale sound of a pump action to scare garbage people away, but that noise seems to speak a lot louder than I do.

Don't trust it to work, even if it does most of the time.
I do not believe we are bickering

Many of us on here like to talk things out

I have seen many good post form people like David Armstrong, Aceman

If you talk things out you can learn allot I enjoy talking to people who don't think like me it's a good way to learn.

If everyone thought the same the world would be dull.

And I am glad your situation work out it sounds as if it could have went south in a hurry!
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Old 01-01-2011, 13:21   #78
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You like the quote thing don't ya.
Yes. The quote thing allows folks to put things into context and remain focused.
Quote:
you seem to leave the parts out you don't like though
No, I tend to quote the parts that I think need commenting on. Whether I like them or not is irrelevant to me.
Quote:
I have said I think twice in this thread that I believe in giving a warning.
And would do so if I believed it would help.
I and I'm still waiting for an example of where it would not help or where it would hurt the situation.
Quote:
About the video you are saying that if you have a lets moss 590 that holds 8+1
And I have it ready with 9 rounds take safety off ready to go in the little span of time.
And you have 8 in the tube none in the chamber so you have to rack take safety off put one in tube in the same span of time.
I have no advantage?
No, I said it does not significantly change the situation from a defensive position, and if there is any advantage is is pretty small. It may be offset by other disadvantages. Why are you trying to take the safety off of a gun that has the chamber empty? No need to have the safety on. And I'm going to bring that shotgun up and charge it in the same time span you are going to bring the shotgun up and take the safety off. If I have time to put another round in at that time, cool, if not, put one in at a later time if needed. So I'm not sure what advantage there is.
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Old 01-01-2011, 14:12   #79
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insurance ha

Most insurance has a deductible, a high one anymore. Mine is at 1%. That means $1750 out of my pocket right off the bat...

don't make me laugh when you say it can be replaced with insurance


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Old 01-01-2011, 14:21   #80
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
Yes. The quote thing allows folks to put things into context and remain focused.

No, I tend to quote the parts that I think need commenting on. Whether I like them or not is irrelevant to me.

I and I'm still waiting for an example of where it would not help or where it would hurt the situation.

No, I said it does not significantly change the situation from a defensive position, and if there is any advantage is is pretty small. It may be offset by other disadvantages. Why are you trying to take the safety off of a gun that has the chamber empty? No need to have the safety on. And I'm going to bring that shotgun up and charge it in the same time span you are going to bring the shotgun up and take the safety off. If I have time to put another round in at that time, cool, if not, put one in at a later time if needed. So I'm not sure what advantage there is.
I agree it gives context when you use all of it, not just the parts of ones you think will help and not hurt the points you are making.

Maybe I am jelous I cannot multi quote like that.
never have figured it out.


You are right about the safety no need to have it on with empty chamber

I think the 4 guys rushing your house is a good example of where having gun loaded all the way would be an advantage.
Do you think it at all possible that you may forget to rack a round in chamber under stress?

To be fair without practice and working on Muscle memory you may just as easily forget the safety.

And as i said if I was worried about such an event I would have a shotgun in semi auto maybe with a nice 20 round drum and that would be a major advantage, if both people have the same skill level.

Or in my case I have a rifle.
I love shotguns i think they are one of the best one shot fight ender.

and i never meant that a warning will hurt just that racking a shotgun makes less sense to me than just having it loaded and giving a verbal warning.

I mean what if we take the shotgun thing out of it! What if you just have a Glock 17 and same situation we have been talking about happens.
Would you rack slide on the 17 in hopes of some intimidation? or just have it loaded and give them a firm verbal warning?

I understand the what you and all the others are saying I do.

But I work at a shop where I here this stuff all the time.
most of the time its someone who trains once a year with a box of shells and a 6 pack.

If anyone is counting on this to work that is a mistake, if it does work great! if not you better damn well have a plan B.

So for me I like to have my weapon as close to ready as I can, and i depend on how I talk to get my point across.
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Old 01-01-2011, 16:07   #81
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Good points already stated. I hope that those who believe the "racking of the shotgun's action" will deter an intruder become better educated. What will they do when a violent intruder does not turn and run away in sheer terror? Training and proper education will help home owners have a well thought out plan and a secondary (or third) plan.
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Old 01-01-2011, 16:59   #82
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.....

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Old 01-02-2011, 13:52   #83
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Maybe I am jelous I cannot multi quote like that.
never have figured it out.
two ways. You can either cut and paste each segment and then use the little "word ballon" icon on the reply box or you can quote the entire text and then insert html at each point you want to break out. Shoot me a PM and I'll talk you through it.
Quote:
I think the 4 guys rushing your house is a good example of where having gun loaded all the way would be an advantage.
Do you think it at all possible that you may forget to rack a round in chamber under stress?
To be fair without practice and working on Muscle memory you may just as easily forget the safety.
Don't see the advantage. If you are so hard-pressed that you cannot get a moment to shove spare ammo in the gun it is doubtful that having an extra round or so will matter. And my experience is that far more people forget to hit the safety than forget to rack the shotgun.
Quote:
I mean what if we take the shotgun thing out of it! What if you just have a Glock 17 and same situation we have been talking about happens.
Would you rack slide on the 17 in hopes of some intimidation? or just have it loaded and give them a firm verbal warning?
Either one. If I don't have the chamber loaded it is not a big deal, you just chamber the round as you you pick the gun up. To me none of it really matters, to me the main issue is to try to reduce the loss of resources. Anything that helps to get the BG to go somewhere else does that, be it racking, yelling, threatening, etc.
Quote:
So for me I like to have my weapon as close to ready as I can, and i depend on how I talk to get my point across.
That is fine for you. For others, however, keeping the shotgun loaded to the hilt for SD is not so fine. It is a balance of cost versus benefit, and many factors come into play.
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Old 01-02-2011, 13:55   #84
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Originally Posted by PATRICE View Post
Hhmmm...Well, I was always led to believe that if I was somewhere I wasn't supposed to be, and I heard a distinctive noise such as the topic under discussion---I was told that it would be prudent to commence firing in the direction of said sound.--Patrice
Do you and the folks giving this advice often break in to other peoples houses in order to commit crimes?

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Old 01-02-2011, 14:20   #85
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
two ways. You can either cut and paste each segment and then use the little "word ballon" icon on the reply box or you can quote the entire text and then insert html at each point you want to break out. Shoot me a PM and I'll talk you through it.

Don't see the advantage. If you are so hard-pressed that you cannot get a moment to shove spare ammo in the gun it is doubtful that having an extra round or so will matter. And my experience is that far more people forget to hit the safety than forget to rack the shotgun.

Either one. If I don't have the chamber loaded it is not a big deal, you just chamber the round as you you pick the gun up. To me none of it really matters, to me the main issue is to try to reduce the loss of resources. Anything that helps to get the BG to go somewhere else does that, be it racking, yelling, threatening, etc.

That is fine for you. For others, however, keeping the shotgun loaded to the hilt for SD is not so fine. It is a balance of cost versus benefit, and many factors come into play.
I read your blog and I more clearly understand your stance now.

You are right some should just have the chamber empty there seems to be a %s of gun owners who don't take this very seriously.

I work part time at a gun shop and have had my fair share of folks point there loaded pistol at me not realizing what they have done.

I always let them know my displeasure with it!!

One thing I always tell folks is to get yourself a 7 gal bucket and fill it full of sand and maybe get a nice thick phone book. unload and load over that.

Yes the safety seems to be the downfall of many I practice the same things over and over again in hope of building that muscle memory.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:31   #86
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Based on what I've read on internet forums...the ideal home security system consists of an audio tape that combines:
- barking dogs
- a pump shortgun being racked
- along with a manly man voice shouting..."hey...I'm armed and dangerous"

A generous spreading of carpet tacks in front of all windows and doors completes the package...hmmm....maybe that's for sailboats in pirate areas???
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Old 01-02-2011, 15:02   #87
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Originally Posted by CharlestonG26 View Post
Based on what I've read on internet forums...the ideal home security system consists of an audio tape that combines:
- barking dogs
- a pump shortgun being racked
- along with a manly man voice shouting..."hey...I'm armed and dangerous"



Correction " I'm armed, dangerous, horney, gay, AND have AIDS."
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Old 01-02-2011, 16:04   #88
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Originally Posted by bug View Post
For 95%
Any noise would work
BOO
hello
shotgun sound
whatever
they hear you there gone.
I agree - as for the remaining 5%, as you said; You should be waiting for them with a 100% ready to go weapon, finger on trigger. They can't close 10 ft in the time it takes to pull the trigger. Coming at me is a threat period if I'm in that condition - announcement or no.

As I said - I find it very disturbing the group that seems to WANT to turn that 95% into the 5% by their actions.
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Old 01-04-2011, 13:19   #89
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
...
Imagine explaining it to the police this way,
...
That's up to your lawyer.

Why anyone would say anything to the police when there is a chance of anything more then a traffic citation is beyond me.
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Old 01-04-2011, 14:36   #90
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I think it has happened many times in the past and will continue to happen in the future. Most criminals don't want to shoot it out to the death. There is a reason why having a firearm present will deter most crimes. Many of people have been scared off by the sound of a shotgun. With that said, I keep mine with a round in the chamber.

I would think part of this discussion has to include the voices of law enforcement. Normally a patrol shotgun is caried without one in the chamber. If an officer pulls up on someone and deploys a shotgun, it is going to make more sound than pulling a pistol. I know I would be intimidated by the presence (audible or otherwise) of a shotgun.
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Old 01-04-2011, 19:35   #91
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Normally a patrol shotgun is caried without one in the chamber.
And I'm sure that's for safety's sake. Safety is also a priority for me and I'm sure I have a whole lot less training than a professional LEO.

It's just a personal choice; you're prepared for an immediate response or you have to perform a single action before you're prepared to respond. If I'm not in immediate danger I'm opting for safety first.
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:57   #92
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
And I'm sure that's for safety's sake. Safety is also a priority for me and I'm sure I have a whole lot less training than a professional LEO.

It's just a personal choice; you're prepared for an immediate response or you have to perform a single action before you're prepared to respond. If I'm not in immediate danger I'm opting for safety first.
Good point. There are a lot of shotguns (and other guns) out there that are not drop safe, so leaving them chambered is not a particularly safe method of storage.

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Old 01-05-2011, 11:38   #93
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Not everybody and this includes home invaders know guns or know the sound of guns. Also most houses arnt exactly a studio apartment. Walls deflect sound to a extent. If you are in your bdrm and they are in your living room or garage or basement may be a decent chance they dont hear it all.I'd suggest learn how to be effective with your gun instead of hoping for a just a sound
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Old 01-05-2011, 20:03   #94
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Originally Posted by Uncle T-bone View Post
I only want the bad person in front of my shotgun to see a bright flash and hear a loud boom and then maybe, just maybe hear me rack it...
anything less than this gives away your position. Good post above.
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Old 01-05-2011, 20:06   #95
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I'm with David Armstrong on this one.

1. I don't believe for a moment that there is any magical power to a shotgun rack. It's essentially saying "I am armed" in a way that leaves no room for them to think you're bluffing. There are times when that warning alone is enough to help. But it's not magical. Effective warnings, however--of every sort--, have been shown to be enough in a meaningful number of encounters.

2. But even if it's not enough, how on earth can it hurt? If you're going to speak up and provide a warning ANYWAY, then you're going to give away your position. And you always run the risk that they'll think you are bluffing. Drunk/drug altered persons tend to have false senses of aggression and bravery. Why not meet the issue head on right away?

If you want to stay quiet, then do. Nothing says you MUST rack your shotgun. Just that you can if you want to.

3. An effective warning also helps to know exactly what/who you are dealing with. If you give them a clear warning, they know you are armed, and you have communicated it effectively and they STILL stay, you know you either have an unwell person (mentally or chemically/drugged) or a human predator. Either way, you know you're not just dealing with a kid that wanted to smash and grab when no one was in.

Either way, if you intended to provide a warning, you loose nothing with the shotgun rack and perhaps gained something by making your warning crystal clear.
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:40   #96
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Again - I don't think anybody here REALLY believes that the mere rack is an actual tool to be used...I have not seen anyone who has said other than "The sound is incidental, and it could be effective"

But no one is actively racking with the pure intent or expectation that it is sufficient by itself.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:46   #97
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actually I think they are. Hoping at least that after they rack, then bad guy splits. From the tone of many many internet forums and ftf conversations, there are too many people who consider that a first step to defense.

I think we all need to be as mentally prepared as humanly possible for "stopping the intruder" portion of this equation.

I was/am and old 11b infantrymen, and it was drilled into us that silence is key to a surprise attack. If a guy is armed, he will know where I am by the muzzle flash, not the sound of my weapon...other than a distinctive Boom. Can't stress this enough. Do not give a bad guy in your home any advantages. He/she is not in there for any other reason that to do harm or take something from you...possessions, or you or your family.

If it reaches the point that you are aware and armed, you are already past the early stages of self defense.

I don't think you have to warn when the threat is already in your home.
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Old 01-06-2011, 12:29   #98
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actually I think they are. Hoping at least that after they rack, then bad guy splits. From the tone of many many internet forums and ftf conversations, there are too many people who consider that a first step to defense.
I would suggest it is a good first step. It is a step that has a fairly high probability of ending the problem without much downside and a large upside.
Quote:
I think we all need to be as mentally prepared as humanly possible for "stopping the intruder" portion of this equation.
One can be prepared to stop the home intruder just as well if one includes a warning of some type as if they do not.
Quote:
I was/am and old 11b infantrymen, and it was drilled into us that silence is key to a surprise attack.
What makes good tactics for combat zones does not alwys make good tactics for non-combat. Unless things have changed since I was in, you were also taught that when on guard duty you always challenged (Halt! Who goes there?) instead of just shooting without any warning.
Quote:
If a guy is armed, he will know where I am by the muzzle flash, not the sound of my weapon...other than a distinctive Boom. Can't stress this enough. Do not give a bad guy in your home any advantages.
How does warning the BG to leave give up any advantages? You still have your gun, you still have (or should have) the dominant position in a defensive posture, and so on.
Quote:
He/she is not in there for any other reason that to do harm or take something from you...possessions, or you or your family.
So why would you want to do stuff to keep him around instead of stuff to encourage him to go away?
Quote:
If it reaches the point that you are aware and armed, you are already past the early stages of self defense.
I don't think you have to warn when the threat is already in your home.
There are lots of things you don't have to do that are still good ideas. And that is the essence of it, to me. Giving a warning costs nothing, and has a lot of potential for gain. Starting a bunch of bullets flying around in a house where one's family is located should be a last choice, not a first choice.

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Old 01-06-2011, 14:33   #99
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all good points.

I still differ in opinion, that a person needs to be mentally prepared for the what after I shuck a shell into this gun. I see and hear of folks that think I will do this and the gun will run away, then are not prepared for whats next.


your point is well taken. I hope the bad guy leaves if you warn them, but if they start shooting you no longer have the advantage of knowing where they are and them not you.
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Old 01-06-2011, 22:37   #100
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The magpul guys had an interesting take on this. They suggested that the racking is a posturing behavior. Some will want to, some won't. Personally, they don't believe in posturing as a necessary step in a self defense situation. They said they don't use a pump with hopes to scare anyone, they use a pump to shoot someone.

But they also left it up to the student and suggested that posturing may play some role in their self defense behaviors, just be consistant in what you do and why you do it.

I'm simply passing the info along.
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