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Old 12-28-2010, 23:42   #61
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I am of the mind that if a bad guy is willing to enter a occupied dwelling, he is probably mentally willing and prepared to deal with resistance. The old saying about the sound of a racking shotgun is just that, an old saying. I put it into the catagory with "its hot enough to fry an egg or "if you cant find em- grind em.
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Old 12-28-2010, 23:44   #62
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Originally Posted by E-Money View Post
Ummm.............. huh?
I had started cleaning my Glock, and then had to do some unpacking to find some of my cleaning supplies (q-tips).
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Old 12-28-2010, 23:57   #63
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Racking insights fear BS:

God Bless the O.P. this is utter wives tale nonsense. It is just as effective as making a Tuff guy face and spouting some tuff talk! Just as good a chance of digging your hole deeper. It is not reasonable thinking; to buy an SD weapon with no absolute mindset to use it when ya point it at something it should be something you intend to shoot. Period.
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Old 12-29-2010, 00:49   #64
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Originally Posted by babarracing View Post
God Bless the O.P. this is utter wives tale nonsense. It is just as effective as making a Tuff guy face and spouting some tuff talk! Just as good a chance of digging your hole deeper. It is not reasonable thinking; to buy an SD weapon with no absolute mindset to use it when ya point it at something it should be something you intend to shoot. Period.
If this is a wives' tale, why did the guy run away from my door instead of forcing it open?

Not to mention, why did he run away without taking care to watch his step on the stairwell?

I agree with you in the sense that you shouldn't operate the pump on a shotgun just for the sake of trying to make a person scared enough to run away because of that "sound." But to say that the sound has no effect is just as foolish. If that sound showed no effect on anyone, and was a wives' tale just as you said, I would've probably ended up shooting the man trying to come in my home unwelcomed.
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Old 12-29-2010, 09:06   #65
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Do the police carry guns? Does everyone know that the police carry guns? Do police get shot at by bad guys even though they know the police carry guns and will shoot back?

A drunk idiot or some teenagers breaking in might come to their senses if the threat of being shot is presented, but a career criminal intent on doing you harm to get what he wants does not think like a rational person.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:07   #66
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Originally Posted by bug View Post
It has to do that 5 % I mentioned they are the one that could be just high as a kite and not understand what that sound was, or it could be a person who knows you have some money,guns or some other thing that they want and don't give a crap how they get it.
Still can't see any problem. First, ignoring something that works 95% of the time in favor of the 5% is a bit questionable to start with, but even so if you do rack you haven't lost anything in the 5% situations.
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Those kind of people may know about guns,tactics and things that may give you a suprise you don't need.
Again, what would that be? The BG now knows you have a shotgun. He doesn't know anything beyond that. He doesn't know how many rounds you have, what other guns you have, your skill, or anything else.
My thought on these kind of things is simple.
Quote:
Assume the worst pray for the best.
My plan assumes 3 or 4 guys looking to do harm
now there is a 99.9% chance that will never happen I know that.
If you want to play the odds that is you choice.
That's why I love America lots of choice.
Yes, but some choices tend to increase the potential for problems while some tend to decrease the potential for problems. In other words, not all choices offer the same results. And again, racking the shotgun (or any gun) doesn't change the scenario at all from a defensive position. This really is one of those situations where the potential gain is quite large and the potential loss is virtually nonexistent.
Quote:
Bottom line if you come to my house and force your way in by violence.
You will leave, either on your own or in a bag.
That choice will be made by that person not me.
I would prefer you leave on your own.
And would yo think they are more likely to choose to leave if they know somebody has a firearm and is waitign for them, or if they do not?
Quote:
In your own house I think most people can move well enough to have the advantage over a intruder.
If they have at least given it some consideration.
You might be surprised how small that advantage is, especially depending on the tactics one chooses.

Quote:
But what if this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw-0n...eature=related
This kind of crap is happening more and will most likely get worse in the future
Again, how would pumping the shotgun have changed anything there?

Last edited by David Armstrong; 12-30-2010 at 10:31..
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:16   #67
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Originally Posted by Dogue View Post
There are enough stories of a homeowner warning an intruder that they have a gun and still being forced to use it because that is not a threat to some of the brazen thieves that are out there now.
For every BG that will continue burglarizing a house with an awake, armed owner there are dozens who will NOT continue.
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I sincerely hope that non of us ever need to defend ourselves, our home, or our family. And for those that give out warnings I hope the thieves leave, and are not fast moving and aggressive. By the time you react to a sound it's very possible that the intruder is already somewhere in your home and possibly as close as your bedroom door. I've heard of several recent break-ins where they just kick in the door and move quickly to get the jump on anyone that may be inside.
Again, I fail to see how racking or not racking the pump on the gun changes any of that.
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I'm of the belief that I don't give away any advantage I have and you're in my home illegally. There will be no slide rack, shotgun rack, or homeowner asking you to leave. There will likely be dogs barking and gunfire.
And I think I would suggest that NOT warning the intruder (under most conditions) is giving away an advantage, as you are actually increasing the danger and the potential for loss to you and yours. Shooting someone rarely makes your life easier, it more often starts a rather expensive and time-consuming process that most folks who have actually been through it suggest everyone should avoid whenever possible.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:19   #68
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Originally Posted by Glocker08 View Post
Why is it that racking the bolt on a pump is supposed to be so intimidating ? Doesn't a semi-auto make pretty much the same sound ?
Not really, but your point is still valid. All notifications, be they racking the slide on a handgun, pumping a shotgun, or just speaking loudly serve to accomplish the goal.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:55   #69
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
Again, I fail to see how racking or not racking the pump on the gun changes any of that.
It's my belief that you've now added another step you have to take in order to defend yourself. Waking from a dead sleep you wake up, grab gun, chamber a round then aim...every second may count here. If by the time your eyes focus you now see someone standing just feet away from you do you want to rack your shotgun?

I would not carry a concealed weapon without a chambered round as I would not keep a home defense weapon in that state either.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:11   #70
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Old 12-29-2010, 13:05   #71
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Originally Posted by Dogue View Post
It's my belief that you've now added another step you have to take in order to defend yourself.
What added step? You pick up the gun and as you pick it up you rack it. Sure, it's an extra step, but EVERYTHING other than always carrying the gun around fully loaded with the safety off and the gun to your shoulder with your finger on the trigger adds another step.
Quote:
Waking from a dead sleep you wake up, grab gun, chamber a round then aim...every second may count here. If by the time your eyes focus you now see someone standing just feet away from you do you want to rack your shotgun?
If the person is so close you don't have time to run the action they are too close for you to use the gun in the first place. If you don't have time for that, the problem is not with having a round in the chamber or not.
Quote:
I would not carry a concealed weapon without a chambered round as I would not keep a home defense weapon in that state either.
About all I can say is that obviously some folks around here really need some good force-on-force training so they can develop a more realistic understanding of how things like this work.
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Old 12-29-2010, 14:18   #72
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Originally Posted by wtf0ver View Post
The sound of a shotgun racking is very intimidating. It's unmistakeable and might change the mind of your run of the mill smash and grab type burglars. The hardened criminals maybe not. if you don't have it loaded and if you're just relying on the sound of it racking to deter a burglar you're sadly mistaken.



I'm not proud to admit this; but here goes. Last week I went pheasant hunting with a couple friends. One of brought along a Remington 870.................unbeknownst to me. When the time came and we were preparing to enter the field, he racked the action on his 870 to chamber a round, and I honesty pooped myself. Not just a little nugget either..............big time load. Never before have I heard such a terrifying and intimidating sound.

That's said joking of course!!!! Yeah, if you're trying to be "SilentMan" and burglarize a house, and hear that sound.............yeah, the old sphincter might tighten up instantly or it might open fully!!
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Old 12-29-2010, 15:58   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
This is a very interesting story...but I'm not quite sure I get the point.
Sound or no sound, a shotgun is just a shotgun and how a person responds to the sight or sound of one chambering a round is how they react. If a person hears you rack a round into the chamber and flees he probably would have left if he had just seen you holding one. If he is going to engage you it would not matter if he heard you chamber a round or not. To think that the sound of chambering a round will stop a bad person is a bad thought.

I have only used a shotgun three times in my life where I actually was ready to fire if needed, each of those times ended without a shot fired.
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Old 12-29-2010, 18:32   #74
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Originally Posted by bug View Post

But what if this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw-0n...eature=related
This kind of crap is happening more and will most likely get worse in the future
What - you mean what if I'm a drug dealer watching my closed circuit TV/Monitor and a rival drug gang shows up?

I'd say a bunch of them or me would have been dead. Likely them since I was watching it happen on video...and I probably had a loaded AK within reach.
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Old 12-30-2010, 21:19   #75
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What - you mean what if I'm a drug dealer watching my closed circuit TV/Monitor and a rival drug gang shows up?

I'd say a bunch of them or me would have been dead. Likely them since I was watching it happen on video...and I probably had a loaded AK within reach.
I did not know the back story behind video interesting.

I just typed in shootouts on youtube and came across that one for my example:
4 guys might know a bit about guns might have had a plan.
But by no means are they seal team 6.

Thats all

thanks for the info though good to know.
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Old 12-30-2010, 21:43   #76
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Still can't see any problem. First, ignoring something that works 95% of the time in favor of the 5% is a bit questionable to start with, but even so if you do rack you haven't lost anything in the 5% situations.

Again, what would that be? The BG now knows you have a shotgun. He doesn't know anything beyond that. He doesn't know how many rounds you have, what other guns you have, your skill, or anything else.
My thought on these kind of things is simple.

Yes, but some choices tend to increase the potential for problems while some tend to decrease the potential for problems. In other words, not all choices offer the same results. And again, racking the shotgun (or any gun) doesn't change the scenario at all from a defensive position. This really is one of those situations where the potential gain is quite large and the potential loss is virtually nonexistent.

And would yo think they are more likely to choose to leave if they know somebody has a firearm and is waitign for them, or if they do not?

You might be surprised how small that advantage is, especially depending on the tactics one chooses.


Again, how would pumping the shotgun have changed anything there?
You like the quote thing don't ya.

you seem to leave the parts out you don't like though

I have said I think twice in this thread that I believe in giving a warning.
And would do so if I believed it would help.

As well we all seem to agree it would in most cases.

however I would have a fully loaded gun in hand with the safety off if so equipped when I made my announcement.

"I have called tho police they are on there way.LEAVE NOW.

For 95%
Any noise would work
BOO
hello
shotgun sound
whatever
they hear you there gone.

Force on force training I have done some not a lot
If you are talking about the distance that a human can cover in average gunfight distance.
yes I am aware most can not draw and fire before a fast person can cover that ground. 7yrds?
Is that what you are referring too?
That is why I keep quiet till I am ready then show my hand If you have a small house you are right your advantage is smaller.

About the video you are saying that if you have a lets moss 590 that holds 8+1
And I have it ready with 9 rounds take safety off ready to go in the little span of time.

And you have 8 in the tube none in the chamber so you have to rack take safety off put one in tube in the same span of time.

I have no advantage?
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Old 12-30-2010, 21:49   #77
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Originally Posted by LilWolfess View Post
Wow. Look at all this childlike bickering.

Here's a post from a small woman's (my) perspective.

I moved into a fairly craphole apartment this summer. I knew there was a little suspicious action going on, but I figured it was just the stupid sort of stuff like pot dealing and a party or two. The landlord assured me that it was a very quiet place and that everyone there was clean and decent and that I wouldn't be bothered in the least.

The first mistake I made was to simply trust the word of my partner in crime (I stayed in the place for the summer, so when he came back for school, he'd have a sure cheap place to live. I didn't even look at the place before signing (knew the landlord sorta, had also viewed apartments in the same building etc.).

Second mistake was not just calling the whole thing off when my gut instinct said the place was bad.

On the second day of being there I got a frantic knock on the door at about 9:45pm. I wasn't expecting anyone, so I just yelled through the paper thin door, "WHO IS IT??"

"It's Ramiro!!"

I don't know any Ramiros.

"Ah...What do you want?"

"I am lookin' for Jose."

I don't know anybody by that name either, and it's for sure not the guy who used to live there, since I learned that his name was Mike.

"No one's here. I just moved in."

"oh...ok"

I started going back to unpacking and cleaning my Glock, but before I'd even taken two steps, there was more pounding on the door. I was getting kinda frustrated and a little nervous, because a normal person would've just left.

"Who is it!?!"

"Ramiro again."

"What do you want!?"

"Can I come in??"

Can I come in?? This had the effect of making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I went immediately to my bedroom, and picked up my 870, and began loading it as quickly as I could. As I was doing this, the Mr. Ramiro jiggled the door handle.

In reply, while I frantically looked around for my phone, I yelled:

"NO! Go away!!"

"It's okay B----, I just want to look around."

Look around?! Really!?! I didn't really think that was what he wanted, and I still couldn't find where I'd left my cellphone. I was also thinking of just how weak and thin the door was. I could've easily kicked through it myself, and the latch was a joke (not even a deadbolt lock). The guy finally started trying the door pretty forcefully.

I put a shell in the chamber and pointed my shotgun at the door, which I figured was going to get yanked open at any second.

All I heard was "Oh----sorry!" and the sound of something heavy crashing down the stairs. (I later had a really long giggle over the falling down the stairs bit after the adrenaline had worn off).

I reported the event. From my perspective, very very few people that are about to cause trouble will listen to the angry shouts of a small woman. This doesn't mean that you should EVER trust that telltale sound of a pump action to scare garbage people away, but that noise seems to speak a lot louder than I do.

Don't trust it to work, even if it does most of the time.
I do not believe we are bickering

Many of us on here like to talk things out

I have seen many good post form people like David Armstrong, Aceman

If you talk things out you can learn allot I enjoy talking to people who don't think like me it's a good way to learn.

If everyone thought the same the world would be dull.

And I am glad your situation work out it sounds as if it could have went south in a hurry!
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Old 01-01-2011, 14:21   #78
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You like the quote thing don't ya.
Yes. The quote thing allows folks to put things into context and remain focused.
Quote:
you seem to leave the parts out you don't like though
No, I tend to quote the parts that I think need commenting on. Whether I like them or not is irrelevant to me.
Quote:
I have said I think twice in this thread that I believe in giving a warning.
And would do so if I believed it would help.
I and I'm still waiting for an example of where it would not help or where it would hurt the situation.
Quote:
About the video you are saying that if you have a lets moss 590 that holds 8+1
And I have it ready with 9 rounds take safety off ready to go in the little span of time.
And you have 8 in the tube none in the chamber so you have to rack take safety off put one in tube in the same span of time.
I have no advantage?
No, I said it does not significantly change the situation from a defensive position, and if there is any advantage is is pretty small. It may be offset by other disadvantages. Why are you trying to take the safety off of a gun that has the chamber empty? No need to have the safety on. And I'm going to bring that shotgun up and charge it in the same time span you are going to bring the shotgun up and take the safety off. If I have time to put another round in at that time, cool, if not, put one in at a later time if needed. So I'm not sure what advantage there is.
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Old 01-01-2011, 15:12   #79
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insurance ha

Most insurance has a deductible, a high one anymore. Mine is at 1%. That means $1750 out of my pocket right off the bat...

don't make me laugh when you say it can be replaced with insurance


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Old 01-01-2011, 15:21   #80
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Yes. The quote thing allows folks to put things into context and remain focused.

No, I tend to quote the parts that I think need commenting on. Whether I like them or not is irrelevant to me.

I and I'm still waiting for an example of where it would not help or where it would hurt the situation.

No, I said it does not significantly change the situation from a defensive position, and if there is any advantage is is pretty small. It may be offset by other disadvantages. Why are you trying to take the safety off of a gun that has the chamber empty? No need to have the safety on. And I'm going to bring that shotgun up and charge it in the same time span you are going to bring the shotgun up and take the safety off. If I have time to put another round in at that time, cool, if not, put one in at a later time if needed. So I'm not sure what advantage there is.
I agree it gives context when you use all of it, not just the parts of ones you think will help and not hurt the points you are making.

Maybe I am jelous I cannot multi quote like that.
never have figured it out.


You are right about the safety no need to have it on with empty chamber

I think the 4 guys rushing your house is a good example of where having gun loaded all the way would be an advantage.
Do you think it at all possible that you may forget to rack a round in chamber under stress?

To be fair without practice and working on Muscle memory you may just as easily forget the safety.

And as i said if I was worried about such an event I would have a shotgun in semi auto maybe with a nice 20 round drum and that would be a major advantage, if both people have the same skill level.

Or in my case I have a rifle.
I love shotguns i think they are one of the best one shot fight ender.

and i never meant that a warning will hurt just that racking a shotgun makes less sense to me than just having it loaded and giving a verbal warning.

I mean what if we take the shotgun thing out of it! What if you just have a Glock 17 and same situation we have been talking about happens.
Would you rack slide on the 17 in hopes of some intimidation? or just have it loaded and give them a firm verbal warning?

I understand the what you and all the others are saying I do.

But I work at a shop where I here this stuff all the time.
most of the time its someone who trains once a year with a box of shells and a 6 pack.

If anyone is counting on this to work that is a mistake, if it does work great! if not you better damn well have a plan B.

So for me I like to have my weapon as close to ready as I can, and i depend on how I talk to get my point across.
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