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Old 12-28-2010, 09:05   #41
Aceman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor View Post
Just keep watching those stupid movies people.
For the gentleman that said:

This is a very bad decision to announce anything to the person who may kill You within a second or two.
Just to clarify:

If there is a BG in my housed armed/dangerous within a second of shooting me I may skip the niceties. Of course we are going straight to boomsticks. I wish me luck because this guy obviously has the initiative.

That said, any announcements are coming from behind cover, with weapon either getting ready, or actually ready.

So - I have just moved from a situation where in all likelihood the person in the home is a robber and will choose to exit the house / or I can shoot fairly certain under the belief that they remain to do me harm, having been given the opportunity.

Or, I can scare the bejeebers out of someone already on the edge, and turn a non-encounter into a shooting situation when it was very avoidable.

Please explain the "bad decision" part of that. Yes - I give up "tactical advantage" of surprise - but this is not a SEAL team clearing my house. It is a robber in all likelihood.

I never said anything about just standing in the open, and chatting with the BG about how this is a bad idea and letting just take a second or two to shoot me instead of leave. If he is one to two seconds from a shot he is most likely in a Surefire hi-beam, with Mr. Mossberg pointed his way, safety already off (it was when I picked it up), finger on trigger. I may not even get to say anything before the trigger gets pulled. But if I can, I will. And if he turns and shoots at my voice he still won't hit me. But now I know what he intends and will perform accordingly.

Again - give me a specific scenario and I'll give a specific response.
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Old 12-28-2010, 09:22   #42
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This is a true event that took place back in 1984:

I just moved to Atlanta and was living in an apartment, I was working days and sometimes I would come home and find that the maintenance guy had come into my apartment to 'fix' something. I would call the office to complain and they would tell me they had a key to every apartment and they could come in anytime to check on problems with the water or whatever.

Then my shift changed and I started sleeping in the morning from about 8am to 3pm. I had one of those loft style units where the bedroom overlooked the living room and front door. One morning about 10am I heard a knock on the door followed by "maintenance", I rolled out of my bed, grabbed my 870, took aim at the front door and waited. A couple of minutes later the door opened and the guy strolled in, I shouted "What the hell are you doing in my apartment". He looked up and said "I am here to check your water heater". I told him the water heater was located outside the unit and to keep out of my apartment unless I called about a problem.

He never heard me rack the gun, it already had a chambered round, but he got the point. I moved out about a month later and bought a house.
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:27   #43
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I rack the slide to chamber a round because I prefer to keep my shotgun stored unchambered. I don't give a rat's if someone hears it and runs, or hears it and tries to pinpoint me. The point is my weapon is loaded and ready.

I'd pray that someone who unlawfully enters my house would hear it and run to avoid trouble, but I'm certainly not relying on it. I figure chances are if someone's stupid enough to break in, then they're stupid enough to stick around no matter what they hear.
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Old 12-28-2010, 11:52   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor View Post
Just keep watching those stupid movies people.
For the gentleman that said:

This is a very bad decision to announce anything to the person who may kill You within a second or two.
Not really. The concept is that by making the announcement you significantly reduce the chance for conflict, thus reducing the likelihood that anybody will be trying to kill anybody else. If it doesn't work, and you go into that <10% area you really don't lose that much. So it becomes a cost-benefit issue. And if you are doing this in a position where the BG may kill you in a second or two you are already way behind the curve, a little noise or lack of it won't change things.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 12-28-2010 at 12:02..
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:00   #45
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from bug:
I think racking the slide for the sake of intimidation is wrong headed.
If they know anything about shotguns they now have an idea that you may be intimidated and more than likely you only have a max of 8 shots before reload then maybe 4 on the side. Also pumps are known to short stroke when the person operating it is nervous or scarred.
It happens not often but it can.
I'm not seeing how any of that leads to the idea that racking the slide for intimidation is a problem. The BG still has exactly as much (or little) information as he already had, with the addition of he now knows that at the least yo have a pump shotgun with you. Why one would think that racking the pump indicates the shooter is intimidated seems quite contrary. LE, for example, rack their pumps when preparing for a fight. It is not because they are intimidated!
Quote:
They also know the general direction you are from that noise.
Unless you have really worked on the art of the ninja, they are going to know your general direction anyway. Few folks are as quiet as they think they are.
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Old 12-28-2010, 13:28   #46
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Having a loaded shotgun and not having to rack the action is not a bad thing. Blasting someone who has you laptop in their hands with their back turned to you might be a bad thing depending on your local laws.

Having a shotgun chamber empty (cruiser ready) and racking a round might scare someone away. It might give you position away but now you have a loaded shotgun.

I keep my long gun with loaded mags but empty chambers because that is what I do at work. The way I look at it if I need to use a gun in my house it will likely be a pistol since they are closest and easiest to get into action. The long guns are for when I have more time. I am not loosing much time by racking a round into the gun. Also in my area as long as they are unarmed and not advancing on me I have to give some sort of warning before blasting them. They will know where I am anyway when I tell them to get down on the ground or out of my house. Most burglars caught by homeowners in my area bolt just on the sight or sound of a homeowner. That's homeowners just being there when they weren't expecting them. If the racking of a shotgun does not scare them away it actually helps me if I have to use it later.

Imagine explaining it to the police this way, "I heard someone booting my door open. I went to my gun safe and pulled out my shotgun. Since the chamber was empty I chamber a round. I then heard/saw the guy walking/running towards my location. I told him to stop..."

Or this, "I heard someone booting my door open. I went to my safe and pulled out my gun. I then went to confront the suspect...."

Note how it gives you an extra layer of justification. How many cops or DAs have heard of crooks freaking out when they hear the sound of a shotgun racking? You think they might think, "Damn this guy confronted someone who pulled shotgun on them. They must have been crazy, foolish, or murderous."

The old saw of the racking of a shotgun comes from police having their shotguns in their car cruiser ready and jumping out at a gangfight, robbery in progress, etc and racking a round in and seeing people reacting favorably to the sound.

It does happen. Should you rely on it? No. Should you dismiss it? No.
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Old 12-28-2010, 13:33   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
I'm not seeing how any of that leads to the idea that racking the slide for intimidation is a problem. The BG still has exactly as much (or little) information as he already had, with the addition of he now knows that at the least yo have a pump shotgun with you. Why one would think that racking the pump indicates the shooter is intimidated seems quite contrary. LE, for example, rack their pumps when preparing for a fight. It is not because they are intimidated!

Unless you have really worked on the art of the ninja, they are going to know your general direction anyway. Few folks are as quiet as they think they are.
It has to do that 5 % I mentioned they are the one that could be just high as a kite and not understand what that sound was, or it could be a person who knows you have some money,guns or some other thing that they want and don't give a crap how they get it.

Those kind of people may know about guns,tactics and things that may give you a suprise you don't need.
My thought on these kind of things is simple.

Assume the worst pray for the best.
My plan assumes 3 or 4 guys looking to do harm
now there is a 99.9% chance that will never happen I know that.
If you want to play the odds that is you choice.
That's why I love America lots of choice.

Bottom line if you come to my house and force your way in by violence.
You will leave, either on your own or in a bag.
That choice will be made by that person not me.
I would prefer you leave on your own.

And I am a level 3 mall ninja so am so quiet I can't hear myself.

In your own house I think most people can move well enough to have the advantage over a intruder.
If they have at least given it some consideration.

if
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Old 12-28-2010, 15:07   #48
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There's no guarantee they will hear the sound of the shotgun. I think announcing that you are armed and that the police are on the way are as good a deterrent as anything. But you need to be prepared for the worst even if its likely that they would flee at that point. You just don't know what kind of criminal just came into your home.

I posted about this on my blog as well www.minutemanreview.com
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Old 12-28-2010, 15:14   #49
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There are enough stories of a homeowner warning an intruder that they have a gun and still being forced to use it because that is not a threat to some of the brazen thieves that are out there now. I sincerely hope that non of us ever need to defend ourselves, our home, or our family. And for those that give out warnings I hope the thieves leave, and are not fast moving and aggressive. By the time you react to a sound it's very possible that the intruder is already somewhere in your home and possibly as close as your bedroom door. I've heard of several recent break-ins where they just kick in the door and move quickly to get the jump on anyone that may be inside.

I'm of the belief that I don't give away any advantage I have and you're in my home illegally. There will be no slide rack, shotgun rack, or homeowner asking you to leave. There will likely be dogs barking and gunfire.
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Old 12-28-2010, 16:52   #50
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Why is it that racking the bolt on a pump is supposed to be so intimidating ? Doesn't a semi-auto make pretty much the same sound ?
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Old 12-28-2010, 17:07   #51
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It worked for me a few years ago. A guy was trying to break into a apt i was living in. I saw him from the window and racked the slide. he ran so fast he dropped his crow bar.
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Old 12-28-2010, 17:30   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
Many guys on these blogs think of HD as the final scene in "Scareface". They watch to many movies.

Most every time if someone breaks into your home it is because they think no body is there. When they realize that someone is, they get out of there because the messed up.

Yes, there are occupied home invasions that you hear about on the news and you hear about them because they are so rare. And yes, a single woman living alone is at a greater risk for this. However, most of these occupied invasion involve drugs or large amounts of cash. This just does not affect most all of us and thinking a group of armed thugs are coming to your house is unrealistic.

If you hear a sound and think someone is out there, call out " I am Armed and on the phone with the police" then rack that pump. If someone was there you will hear a door slam or window break as they dive out it.

Thinking you can just sneak up on someone and shoot them for being in your home is wrong headed. There are ways for a person to end up there and not be intending you harm. If you are that afraid to live alone then move back in with your parents so they can protect you.
Europe has more "hot" burglaries than the US by a substantial margin. I remember reading an article about it and they attributed it to gun ownership.

"Hot" referring to the owner being in the structure at the time
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Old 12-28-2010, 18:27   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceKeeper View Post
This is a true event that took place back in 1984:

I just moved to Atlanta and was living in an apartment, I was working days and sometimes I would come home and find that the maintenance guy had come into my apartment to 'fix' something. I would call the office to complain and they would tell me they had a key to every apartment and they could come in anytime to check on problems with the water or whatever.

Then my shift changed and I started sleeping in the morning from about 8am to 3pm. I had one of those loft style units where the bedroom overlooked the living room and front door. One morning about 10am I heard a knock on the door followed by "maintenance", I rolled out of my bed, grabbed my 870, took aim at the front door and waited. A couple of minutes later the door opened and the guy strolled in, I shouted "What the hell are you doing in my apartment". He looked up and said "I am here to check your water heater". I told him the water heater was located outside the unit and to keep out of my apartment unless I called about a problem.

He never heard me rack the gun, it already had a chambered round, but he got the point. I moved out about a month later and bought a house.
This is a very interesting story...but I'm not quite sure I get the point.
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Old 12-28-2010, 18:29   #54
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Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy View Post
I rack the slide to chamber a round because I prefer to keep my shotgun stored unchambered. I don't give a rat's if someone hears it and runs, or hears it and tries to pinpoint me. The point is my weapon is loaded and ready.
Ditto - That rack is going to happen as the muzzle is heading to the doorway...evrything else happens AFTER that.

I agree - it ISN'T being racked as a warning. That is incidental.
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Old 12-28-2010, 18:37   #55
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Originally Posted by bug View Post
It has to do that 5 % I mentioned they are the one that could be just high as a kite and not understand what that sound was,
Irrelevent. As I mentioned (for me at least) the rack is incidental. It's a bonus for you if you hear it and leave. If not it doesn't matter. The weapon is hot, aimed and ready.

Quote:
or it could be a person who knows you have some money,guns or some other thing that they want and don't give a crap how they get it.
In which case there will be a shootout. And it will commence fairly quickly with me having most of the advantage. Good luck!

Quote:
Those kind of people may know about guns,tactics and things that may give you a suprise you don't need.
At which point you are dead. Silent or not. They know you are there, they are armed and ready, they have weapons modified to full auto, armor, NV, and friends covering.


My thought on these kind of things is simple.

Quote:
Assume the worst pray for the best.
My plan assumes 3 or 4 guys looking to do harm
now there is a 99.9% chance that will never happen I know that.
If you want to play the odds that is you choice.
That's why I love America lots of choice.
Again - there is blindly playing the odds, and making an informed decision with contingencies in place.
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Old 12-28-2010, 18:41   #56
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Originally Posted by Dogue View Post
I'm of the belief that I don't give away any advantage I have and you're in my home illegally. There will be no slide rack, shotgun rack, or homeowner asking you to leave. There will likely be dogs barking and gunfire.
And while I generally agree - and that is your choice...Fortunately for you you live in FL. Other states are not as forgiving.

I just think there are a lot of trigger happy fools out there who are either just looking for the opportunity to "off some scum" who are much more likely to get shot or shoot an innocent person or shoot a bad guy and end up in jail anyway.

The posts are often disturbing.
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Old 12-28-2010, 19:36   #57
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Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
Irrelevent. As I mentioned (for me at least) the rack is incidental. It's a bonus for you if you hear it and leave. If not it doesn't matter. The weapon is hot, aimed and ready.


In which case there will be a shootout. And it will commence fairly quickly with me having most of the advantage. Good luck!


At which point you are dead. Silent or not. They know you are there, they are armed and ready, they have weapons modified to full auto, armor, NV, and friends covering.


My thought on these kind of things is simple.


Again - there is blindly playing the odds, and making an informed decision with contingencies in place.
There seems to no middle man here.

Just because they may be knowledgeable about guns/tactics does not make them SPEC OPS so your right if seal team 6 decides to invade your home your toast!

But what if this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw-0n...eature=related
This kind of crap is happening more and will most likely get worse in the future

Look what I said is not Irrelevant I encourage people to do what works for them.
If I had a shotgun for the house i would have one in the chamber and the tube full. YMMV
it would also be a semi auto. maybe A saiga with a 20rd drum, but as it is I live in the sticks so i keep a rifle handy.

I want them to leave so I will verbalize that to them if I think it will work.
If they don't then obviously they have bad intension's, In that case Its a GUN fight not a fair Fight.

saying that me or anyone else on this board is trigger Happy because I feel my tactics will work better for me than yours is silly.

I have done everything in my power to avoid such contact. ie: I moved to a nice community we have good police even though they are spread out.
the people around me I can trust. and so on.
If your plan involves a 8 shot rem with an empty chamber with a hand gun as back up, more power to you.

To me this is the same argument as those who carry there CCW with a empty chamber! why?? If something goes south it may happen so fast you wont know what hit you.

I pray that you or I never have to get into a gun fight! or hurt any one like that.
I have had enough guns pointed at me to know I don't like it, and i would like it much more if they would just go away.

But life does not go how you want it too i just does what it wants.
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Last edited by bug; 12-28-2010 at 19:38..
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Old 12-28-2010, 21:06   #58
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I personally know of a case where racking the slide of a shotgun (and it was empty actually) got to trespassers to freeze in their steps, and then after the owner said a few choice words, they turned around and left.

All this was in the darkness so the intruders didn't see the gun itself.

Does that mean it will work 100 percent of the time? No. Does it work though often? I bet it does.

Just as seeing five cops level guns at you tend to get your attention, so does the racking of a shotgun.

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Old 12-28-2010, 21:35   #59
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Wow. Look at all this childlike bickering.

Here's a post from a small woman's (my) perspective.

I moved into a fairly craphole apartment this summer. I knew there was a little suspicious action going on, but I figured it was just the stupid sort of stuff like pot dealing and a party or two. The landlord assured me that it was a very quiet place and that everyone there was clean and decent and that I wouldn't be bothered in the least.

The first mistake I made was to simply trust the word of my partner in crime (I stayed in the place for the summer, so when he came back for school, he'd have a sure cheap place to live. I didn't even look at the place before signing (knew the landlord sorta, had also viewed apartments in the same building etc.).

Second mistake was not just calling the whole thing off when my gut instinct said the place was bad.

On the second day of being there I got a frantic knock on the door at about 9:45pm. I wasn't expecting anyone, so I just yelled through the paper thin door, "WHO IS IT??"

"It's Ramiro!!"

I don't know any Ramiros.

"Ah...What do you want?"

"I am lookin' for Jose."

I don't know anybody by that name either, and it's for sure not the guy who used to live there, since I learned that his name was Mike.

"No one's here. I just moved in."

"oh...ok"

I started going back to unpacking and cleaning my Glock, but before I'd even taken two steps, there was more pounding on the door. I was getting kinda frustrated and a little nervous, because a normal person would've just left.

"Who is it!?!"

"Ramiro again."

"What do you want!?"

"Can I come in??"

Can I come in?? This had the effect of making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I went immediately to my bedroom, and picked up my 870, and began loading it as quickly as I could. As I was doing this, the Mr. Ramiro jiggled the door handle.

In reply, while I frantically looked around for my phone, I yelled:

"NO! Go away!!"

"It's okay B----, I just want to look around."

Look around?! Really!?! I didn't really think that was what he wanted, and I still couldn't find where I'd left my cellphone. I was also thinking of just how weak and thin the door was. I could've easily kicked through it myself, and the latch was a joke (not even a deadbolt lock). The guy finally started trying the door pretty forcefully.

I put a shell in the chamber and pointed my shotgun at the door, which I figured was going to get yanked open at any second.

All I heard was "Oh----sorry!" and the sound of something heavy crashing down the stairs. (I later had a really long giggle over the falling down the stairs bit after the adrenaline had worn off).

I reported the event. From my perspective, very very few people that are about to cause trouble will listen to the angry shouts of a small woman. This doesn't mean that you should EVER trust that telltale sound of a pump action to scare garbage people away, but that noise seems to speak a lot louder than I do.

Don't trust it to work, even if it does most of the time.
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Last edited by LilWolfess; 12-28-2010 at 21:37.. Reason: Misspelled some stuff, and had to point out the stairs bit since it was pretty funny afterwards.
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Old 12-28-2010, 23:08   #60
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I started going back to unpacking and cleaning my Glock....[/B]
Ummm.............. huh?
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