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Old 09-02-2010, 15:09   #1
josey88
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update to a double tap technique thread

Well, guys, I just came back from the range. As I said I would, I took with me my Beretta 90-two 9mm and my G30SF . Since I knew that double tapping with the G30SF would be more difficult , I started with the Beretta. Following the suggestions from yesterday , I found that , in order to shoot with my two eyes open , I needed to change my posture from Weaver to Isosceles . There was no way in hell that I cut shoot with my eyes open on my prefered posture(go figure) , so I started with the Isosceles, that , BTW, it is a nice way to shoot . OK, so, after I worked out the posture, I followed with the grip. I refined the grip , or should I say I placed my weak hand position and my thumb according to the way I saw it on a youtube video , that is , I placed my weak hand on the gun and then I rotated the grip until it fell on the right position , along with the thumb. Then I started shooting . The Beretta is a dream to shoot(no wonder it has that cult reputation) but it took some effort getting into shoot , follow the sight until it fall on target and then shoot again. After some 50 rds, I started to get it : point, shoot , then wait for the sight to fall into place again and shoot again. At the end of 150 rds I was pretty much on the ball , placing the rds on a 4 or 5 inches group at 15 yards on an 8" x 11" target.
The problem is that even thou I was able to reduce the time between the two shots , I was in no way even closer to the speed that these professional guys perform on the internt videos . At the beginning it was bad , but with the practice shots , I was reducing the time in between shots , but still was kind of slow in comparison. I would say like twice slow like those guys. I think that I am getting the technique right , but I am around 5000 rds away at least , from doing it the way these people do it. Still, I left feeling pretty damn good with myself , because I am performing better than I expected , and I am being accurate , so I am pleased. In the next trips I will be practicing more and more until one day not too far I will be able to double tap like the Big Shots. Oh, I almost forgot my G30SF... Well, the Beretta was easy to sight because of its long barrel , but the G30SF is short and even thou I have combat XS combat sights on it , it was way more difficult to do the shoot, follow sight until it fell in place ,then shoot again. And the recoil is not the same either. After 80 rds or so , I started to get on the way with the Glock , but I ended up doing it much more slowly than with the Beretta. In the end I did it , too ; I was able to double tap , but with more time in between the shots and not as close grouped . I was still putting the shots inside the 8x11 inches target at 15 yards , but not as grouped as with the Beretta. I am also pleased to announce that after 100 rd WWB FMJ , the G30SF performed flawlessly. No FTF ... nothing. So, everything is peachy . I guess that "the Force" is with me. Next time I will be bringing my HK45C which is close to smooth in shooting as my Beretta , instead of the G30SF , to practice. I want to Thank so much the guys in this wonderful forum
that gave me all those sugestions and advice. They were very helpful .

Last edited by josey88; 09-02-2010 at 16:02..
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Old 09-02-2010, 22:33   #2
matt c
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congratulations on your success and change...go to youtube, type in team glock and watch the video sevigny, abbate and rogers. Abbate(one of the best competing shooters around) speed seems like maybe 1/2 as fast a Sevigny...One reason is she has no where near the grip strength. The stronger your grip, the less firm your hold needs to be(% of your total grip strength used to control the gun) and the faster you can use the trigger...it takes tremendous grip strength and practice to shoot with the speed of someone like Sevigny and others of his caliber... so your next purchase for improving your shooting should be a captains of crush gripper or a few...

Last edited by matt c; 09-02-2010 at 22:35..
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Old 09-02-2010, 22:48   #3
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If you want to increase your speed move in closer 5-7 yards and work at that distance for a while. At 5 & 7 yards you should be able to draw and fire two rounds, center mass in 2 seconds. When you can do that move back. Also with practice you should be able to do this from Weaver with both eyes open. shouldn't be a problem. Mental block? Police training generally does not involve "double taps" at 15 yds. At that range you want a controlled pair which is shot slower, sighting each shot.
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:02   #4
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, but I am around 5000 rds away at least , from doing it the way these people do it.
I've shot 25,000 rounds in the last year and a half, and still can't do it as fast as the pros. If you get there in 5,000, you need to quit your job and turn pro.

Look at my post (#3 or so?) in your original thread. My suggestion to you was:
Buy 20,000 rounds
shoot them
repeat

It might take you 4 or 5 cycles of that (more?) to get as fast while maintaining the accuracy of them.

Here's a comparison. People watch Tiger Woods and go "That looks easy". Then they go to the driving range. They hit a bunch of crappy shots then crank one down the middle and say "Oh yeah, 5000 more and I'll be there." Ummmm..... try 5,000,000 more and maybe you'd be right.

Yes, the pro's make it look easy. Heck, you might spend 10 years shooting and never get as good as Leatham or Sevigny. You might never make IDPA Master or even 'A' level in USPSA. The guys that do have shoot BUNCHES of ammo over years... as well as doing lots of dry-fire practice, etc.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade... just inject a little "reality" into your daydreaming.

Go out, make sure you practice with a *purpose*, and you'll get better, quickly. But if you aren't shooting 20,000+ so rounds per year... it'll be tough to get there.

I have Matt Burkett's book. The purpose of his book is to get you to the upper levels of USPSA. HE says:
"You need to practice 3 times a week, 300 rounds each time". 900 rounds per week? 3600 per month? That makes my 20,000 per year count pale in comparison.

Good luck to you.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:06   #5
josey88
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Thanks , guys , but my range does not have 7 yards . The closer I can get is 15 yards , so , is a boomer , but that is what it is. With respect to a comment that I said previously , that it would take at least 5000 rds to obtain the Pro`s speed , it was just a figure number ... it was not my intention to affirm that in a certain number of rds I would be equal to the professionals ... My apologies . I am not doing this to compete or anything like it. I am just trying to be proficient at it . It takes a lot of skill to double tap , so I want to be able to do it , that is all. Getting back at the distance of 7 yards, I understand that it would be a lot easier on the accuracy so I can gain speed , but, unfortunately , I am limited to 15 yards minimum and 25 yards maximum on pistol in my range. Anyway , I am planning to go every 2 weeks , and now that the 9mm rds are becoming plentiful again(thanks God) it will be easier to shoot more.

Last edited by josey88; 09-03-2010 at 09:12..
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:03   #6
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15 yards will be fine to practice...you just have to make due with what you have. You can fire a million rounds through your pistol and still not be near as quick and accurate if you ignore training your grip strength...As a matter of fact someone that trains their grip and does not shoot all that much will end up much better and faster simply because they can control the filp so much easier that all they need to do is grip it and go. So up to you how you go about this, but, there is no substitute for being able to grip the gun like it is in a vice. I am huge on grip training because of personal experience. I spent 12 years in the military and did a tremendous amount of training with weapons... last year I switched to thumbs forward and started to focus on grip strength...I am probably twice as fast and accurate as I was with maybe 5% of the shooting practice I did before.

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Old 09-03-2010, 11:31   #7
josey88
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15 yards will be fine to practice...you just have to make due with what you have. You can fire a million rounds through your pistol and still not be near as quick and accurate if you ignore training your grip strength...As a matter of fact someone that trains their grip and does not shoot all that much will end up much better and faster simply because they can control the filp so much easier that all they need to do is grip it and go. So up to you how you go about this, but, there is no substitute for being able to grip the gun like it is in a vice. I am huge on grip training because of personal experience. I spent 12 years in the military and did a tremendous amount of training with weapons... last year I switched to thumbs forward and started to focus on grip strength...I am probably twice as fast and accurate as I was with maybe 5% of the shooting practice I did before.
matt c : Long , long ago I realized that listening to others and taking advice of those who know more is a healthy thing. It helps to avoid mistakes and makes life easier , in all aspects. What you are suggesting makes sense : the more grip, the more control of the recoil and the faster the sight will get on position again. I will go out and get one of those gitmos that improve the grip , tomorrow. Since I will be posting regularly my progress on the double tapping , I will let you know how good my grip will be. Thanks so much
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:00   #8
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matt c : Long , long ago I realized that listening to others and taking advice of those who know more is a healthy thing. It helps to avoid mistakes and makes life easier , in all aspects. What you are suggesting makes sense : the more grip, the more control of the recoil and the faster the sight will get on position again. I will go out and get one of those gitmos that improve the grip , tomorrow. Since I will be posting regularly my progress on the double tapping , I will let you know how good my grip will be. Thanks so much
good idea...remember also you can learn a ton by watching and studying some of those great top shooters on you tube...Watch their pistol and how they barely move after firing... watch how much slower others are as their pistols are much less in control..watch the stances of the top shooters.. a good 'boxing' like stance with weight into the pistol...heads tucked down...just by emulating some of what you see you will develop better technique and the real key to fast and accurate is as simple as controlling the flip and recoil...the ones that do it the best are the fastest!
word of warning on hand grippers...the stuff you find at the sporting good stores are crap. They have very little gripping pressure and may not be of any use depending on your current strength...You want a strong gripper that will allow you to train your grip like you might train any other muscle...3-5 sets and maybe 10-20 reps a few times a week. google captains of crush grippers and check out their site... they are regarded as the best out there...and no I do not work for them, but I highly believe that when I come across a great product I should recommend it ...

Last edited by matt c; 09-03-2010 at 12:01..
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:01   #9
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You can fire a million rounds through your pistol and still not be near as quick and accurate if you ignore training your grip strength...As a matter of fact someone that trains their grip and does not shoot all that much will end up much better and faster simply because they can control the filp so much easier that all they need to do is grip it and go.
Jesse Abate is 10 times the shooter of any person on this board, yet I refuse to believe she has my grip strength. And I still can't shoot like she can. Double taps have VERY LITTLE to do with grip strength, or I would be able to shoot faster than she can. I can't.

Read Brian Enos' book. He is/was Leatham's best friend as together they revolutionized competitive shooting in the 90's. Definitely a top shooter. About how tight to hold the gun, he says "hold the gun about like you would hold a hammer while driving a nail.". I won't speak for how you might hold a hammer while doing that, but no way is that anywhere near max "squeeze" for me... heck, it might even be only 50%.

I'm certainly not convinced that CRUSHING GRIP STRENGTH is to key to fast double taps.

Just my $.02.
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:22   #10
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Jesse Abate is 10 times the shooter of any person on this board, yet I refuse to believe she has my grip strength. And I still can't shoot like she can. Double taps have VERY LITTLE to do with grip strength, or I would be able to shoot faster than she can. I can't.

Read Brian Enos' book. He is/was Leatham's best friend as together they revolutionized competitive shooting in the 90's. Definitely a top shooter. About how tight to hold the gun, he says "hold the gun about like you would hold a hammer while driving a nail.". I won't speak for how you might hold a hammer while doing that, but no way is that anywhere near max "squeeze" for me... heck, it might even be only 50%.

I'm certainly not convinced that CRUSHING GRIP STRENGTH is to key to fast double taps.

Just my $.02.
Jessie is very good ...but watch her against sevigny and watch how much more her gun flips on her when she shoots comparatively(she is a lot slower than Sevigny)...You tube...team glock video...Sevigny, Abbate, and Rogers...the speed comes from the control of the weapon... easiest way to control a weapon is through a strong grip and solid stance... When I hammer a nail, I hold the hammer very tight. Obviously one also needs a locked wrist as well when shooting(good 45 deg. cant of the support hand). Oh and Brian Enos and Leatham both benefit from having amazing grip strength...maybe they hold their hammers with 100lbs of pressure vs their max possible of say 250lbs of pressure(just arbitrary numbers but I hope you understand). I actually got into the idea of improving my grip from Enos' forum. Mostly it has allowed me to hold the pistol tighter while actually holding it looser. MY grip is stronger on the pistol with less effort because I am stronger...this allow me to be more relaxed and quicker as well as have better control over the flip. As far as Jessie's grip strength well who knows maybe it is much stronger than you think...I knew this really thin guy in the military(maybe 145lbs) that had amazing grip strength and could arm wrestle like you would not believe...his skinny arm would put guys down that looked twice the size of him...don't judge a book by it's cover.

You can Google grip strength and shooting and read all about the benefits of a strong grip over a weaker or average one.

Last edited by matt c; 09-03-2010 at 12:41..
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Old 09-03-2010, 13:22   #11
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http://www.oregonshooting.com/vids/grip2.wmv
this also may help with setting the support hand on your pistol... and you strengthen the grip so you can lock the support arm with enough strength to control the recoil like the guy in the video can.... Basically your strengthening the forearms.

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Old 09-03-2010, 19:12   #12
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I was taught double tapping by a guy using a 1911. It took 6 sets of 2 shots to fire twice and be able to cover the hits by a quarter. I was using a Beretta 92 with the hammer pulled back for first shot. After the first attempt he yelled fire faster. Each time he yelled faster. The 6th attempt was a success. 12 rounds and less than a full magazine. I now can easily do it with a 1911 or any Glock or Glock type action.

The whole process is the pistol can cycle as fast as U can pull the trigger. One sight picture and 2 shots sounding almost like one shot. The second shot goes off on the original site picture before the pistol can recoil. I can do it with 9mm, 40cal and 45 cal ammo. It is very simple. Just pull the trigger faster.

I am now working on doing it with a Sig using the first shot as Double action and the second with single action. It is harder as U have to really concentrate on the trigger changing position on the reset.
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Old 09-03-2010, 21:05   #13
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Sounds like you are well on your way. Keep practicing and you will get it.
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Old 09-04-2010, 00:02   #14
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The whole process is the pistol can cycle as fast as U can pull the trigger. One sight picture and 2 shots sounding almost like one shot. The second shot goes off on the original site picture before the pistol can recoil.
You can't be actually getting off another shot before the first starts recoiling. The pistol has to return to the starting position before you fire the second time but it has to recoil.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 09-04-2010 at 00:06..
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:39   #15
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You can't be actually getting off another shot before the first starts recoiling. The pistol has to return to the starting position before you fire the second time but it has to recoil.

Do it all the time. Its a manner of timing. One sight picture, shoot, action , reset, shoot, action, recoil. You can dispute it all you want, but that is how its done. the action is back and reset before the recoil, then fire again.

The sounds of the shots are two shots almost on each other- babang. The result is 2 holes in the target you can cover with a .25 cent piece.

The trick is no hesitation between trigger pulls. Its called a double tap, not two shots at a target.
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:05   #16
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The second shot goes off on the original site picture before the pistol can recoil.
To be clear, there is no getting off a 2nd shot 'before the pistol can recoil'...; the pistol has already risen in recoil before the slide has even returned forward, feeding the 2nd shot....
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:10   #17
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If lucky, you can, however, trigger the 2nd shot just about as the pistol has snapped back down roughly on target...
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:44   #18
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Amazingly this thread is just the same as when I go to the range. I shoot a couple of double taps and somebody will come and ask how I am doing it. I will explain and they then will want to argue about some fine point as to why I can't do what I am doing.

So go ahead and expend 1000's of rounds and ignore the fact that you are not pulling the trigger fast enough. Double taps are about the same as bump firing.

I will continue doing double taps and you all can go waste ammo taking two shots instead of really double tapping.

Done with this thread.http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/imag...out.gif:dunno:
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:35   #19
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2952 is saying that he gets off two shots before the recoil... The slide actually cycles after firing in about .02 sec. with a fast trigger finger the second shot is sent out immediately and then the shooter lets up and the feel is of one recoil. That's a nice, fast trigger finger, good timing and good pistol control.

Last edited by matt c; 09-04-2010 at 09:53..
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Old 09-04-2010, 10:44   #20
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Amazingly this thread is just the same as when I go to the range. I shoot a couple of double taps and somebody will come and ask how I am doing it. I will explain and they then will want to argue about some fine point as to why I can't do what I am doing.
Not saying that you're not doing quick shots. Am saying that you're explaining it very wrong. If a semi-auto pistol relies on recoil to eject the first and chamber the second round--and it does--then there's no way possible fo you to deliver your second shot before the pistol recoils.
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