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Old 08-08-2010, 21:08   #61
chippy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Cooke View Post

Wish I would have just stayed with the base model I don't need no bells and whistles...

That's what I am thinking
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Old 08-08-2010, 21:53   #62
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look at midway or ctd....they have shooting chronys for about $80.00
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Old 08-08-2010, 22:21   #63
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Thanks for the heads up.
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Old 08-08-2010, 23:33   #64
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Hell, for $80, it can be a lot more fun, and cheaper than a new barrel. Just shoot everything through it.
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Old 08-10-2010, 16:46   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
and i thought that was common knowledge....the 17# spring being stock for the 10mm just like it is for the 9mm in the G17....spare me the heavier slide stuff folks....thats comparing ounces of slide weight to pounds of force of the stock vs. after-market springs...

its my feeling that Glock decided that the 17 pound spring along with the heavier slide of the G20 was plenty for the run of the mill watered down stuff that Rem. Fed. Win. Hornanday...etc puts out, and theyre right. but this combos is far from optimal for true 10mm powered loads.
The underpowered spring is the common knowledge, sure - but the fact that you would get higher velocity out of using a heavier spring? This is the first time I am hearing about that. I'm sure it's been "discovered" before, but like I said- first for me, and I am skeptical - as I always am, so I'm going to test this thing and see what happens for my figures.

...Get ready for the grandaddy of 10mm threads here in the 10 ring...Should have a chrono in a matter of a week or so. I already have 200 rounds to test with - and will load some more shortly thereafter.
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Last edited by Kegs; 08-10-2010 at 16:49..
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Old 08-13-2010, 16:07   #66
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The bullet has left the bbl before the locked slide/bbl has recoiled .1" or so to the rear....; I find it hard to believe that a weaker recoil spring allowing the slide to recoil a little more freely/faster 'bleeds off' more than one hundred fps velocity....

Now the chrono does not usually lie; chrono ten rounds with stock spring, chrono ten rounds with heavier spring, chrono with stock spring again....; same day testing, 2 min apart...
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Old 08-15-2010, 20:26   #67
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The 10 Ring
Sorry for the off topic question, but what is that on your magazine in the gun, at the bottom of the grip? Some kind of adapter?
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Old 08-15-2010, 20:27   #68
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That is a G20 mag with a Pearce mag sleeve basically gives you a full size G20SF grip.

I have the same set up for my G29.
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Old 08-20-2010, 12:28   #69
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Originally Posted by alpha6164 View Post
UPDATE:


Someone recommended that changing the spring to a heavier will improve my chrono. I ordered the Wolff 24lb spring and guide rod combination.

I took the G20 to the range yesterday and shot the same ammo with the new spring. The conditions were pretty identical, both days in the low 90s temp wise and same humidity. These tests are a week apart so it is right on. Five shot string and posting the average.



Last week with stock barrel and spring: These are average

DT 135gr = 1463 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1089 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1211 ft/sec


Yesterday with stock barrel and 24lb spring and guide rod: These are average

DT 135gr = 1582 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1214 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1242 ft/sec


There is no question that 24lb spring helped. What is amazing is that it helped the most with the lightest bullet and in ascending order the heavier the bullet the less it improved with the heavier spring but all improved. I guess that there is so much more pressure/powder in the 135gr load that opens the breach face faster and longer changing the velocity.

Just wanted to post this because it somewhat gets DT off the hook. It is possible that at elevation (i am at seal level) those numbers can be another 50ft/sec faster which would be closer to their advertised data.
I am not sure what to think. This is the most interesting post I have seen in a long, long time.
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Old 08-28-2010, 19:28   #70
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I chronographed 3 double tap rounds today. I had 6 to spare and had 3 misreads - so this is a very small sample...These are listed as 200gr. "controlled expansion" on the box. I have not pulled one of these bullets and confirmed that it is actually 200 gr., but they are montana gold bullets.

Another person had reported that they substituted 180 gr. bullets for these. I will have to run one of these through the milk jugs and weigh it afterward to better get an idea.

At any rate, I ran 50 handloads today - I'll report more on it in a different thread once I have some additional time, but the bottom line is I am using 22lbs. springs and a 4.45" kkm barrel in my G29 (so this is very close to the G20 bbl. length) The D.T. box suggests 1250 fps out of a g20. I found the bullets ran in the high 1100s - around 1180 or so - which is very impressive to say the least if they are indeed 200 gr. bullets, but I do not believe they could reach the 1250 fps level in a stock g20 unless the conditions were favorable for the absolute highest velocities.

I wish I had more ammo to test, but I have since shot most of the D.T. up in the last few months.

They are overrated, but not by much based on the small sample I tested.
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Old 08-28-2010, 19:35   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt Dotson View Post
The bullet has left the bbl before the locked slide/bbl has recoiled .1" or so to the rear....; I find it hard to believe that a weaker recoil spring allowing the slide to recoil a little more freely/faster 'bleeds off' more than one hundred fps velocity....

Now the chrono does not usually lie; chrono ten rounds with stock spring, chrono ten rounds with heavier spring, chrono with stock spring again....; same day testing, 2 min apart...
I am SO going to do this once I have developed a hunting load for this gun...
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Old 08-28-2010, 22:43   #72
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For what it's worth, I tested 5rds of DT 200gr WFNGC with my Shooting Chrony F1 Master. This was out of a 6" barrel, and using a 22# spring. The box advertises 1300fps out of a 4.6" barrel. This is what I got:

1199, 1220, 1173, 1227, 1216

While a 200gr bullet @ 1200fps is nothing to cry about, I'm a little disappointed because I'm using a 1.4" longer barrel. Before I tested the ammo, I thought for sure I would reach the advertised velocity with the 6" barrel. Next time out I'll run some more rounds through the chrony with my G20L upper, using 17/19/20/22# springs and see if there's a noticeable difference in my gun.
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Old 08-29-2010, 05:46   #73
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I can't wait to hear all the results of this back to back spring testing.
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:47   #74
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Originally Posted by MalumProhibitum View Post
I can't wait to hear all the results of this back to back spring testing.
I might load up 10 rounds of hot blue dot and run 5 with the stock spring on just to see if there is any difference. My suspicion is that there will be little to no difference, but I won't know until I test it.

5 rounds is a very small sample, but I think its enough to get an idea of #1 how fast a max (published) load runs in my rig, and #2 if the spring makes much of a difference in relation to that.

Also: I have been thinking about getting a 24# spring. I think these really hot rounds overrun the 22# a bit. The brass is still flying pretty far even with the 22#.
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Old 08-29-2010, 14:06   #75
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Back of the envelope calculations seem to show that the "breech opens too fast" argument is null, at least with the G20 and G29 -- the slide weight is sufficient to keep it locked up until the bullet exits the barrel. Thus any explanation would have to be with slower powders burning slower due to the slide velocity reducing the pressure (unless someone else has an Idea They Would Like To Share). This effect is going to be powder-specific, with fast powders showing almost no effect, and slower powders showing the most.

So, your test with Blue Dot sounds like a good idea, since that is a slow powder. Testing with a G29 is not quite ideal, as the shorter barrel isn't going to get the most from slower powders anyway, but it might show some effect. Unfortunately, your Blue Dot test won't have any relevance with respect to Double Tap ammo, unless we happen to know that Blue Dot is the powder that Mike uses (I think not...).
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Old 08-29-2010, 20:18   #76
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Back of the envelope calculations seem to show that the "breech opens too fast" argument is null, at least with the G20 and G29 -- the slide weight is sufficient to keep it locked up until the bullet exits the barrel. Thus any explanation would have to be with slower powders burning slower due to the slide velocity reducing the pressure (unless someone else has an Idea They Would Like To Share). This effect is going to be powder-specific, with fast powders showing almost no effect, and slower powders showing the most.

So, your test with Blue Dot sounds like a good idea, since that is a slow powder. Testing with a G29 is not quite ideal, as the shorter barrel isn't going to get the most from slower powders anyway, but it might show some effect. Unfortunately, your Blue Dot test won't have any relevance with respect to Double Tap ammo, unless we happen to know that Blue Dot is the powder that Mike uses (I think not...).
Some notes:

First of all, I am using an extended barrel in my G29. It is 4.45" in length. That puts my particular G29 very close to a G20 in barrel length. Certainly, 0.15" is not going to make a significant difference in velocities based on burn rates.

I do not believe that McNett uses blue dot for his commercial loads. I would expect he uses a commercially available powder that hobbyist hand loaders cannot get their hands on in small quantities without working with commercial loaders who might have stumbled on to what he has been using. I expect that his powder is going to be closer to AA#9 in burn speed, but that is simply speculation since I really don't know what he is using.

I just know it's not producing velocities that meet the claims on his boxes.

Unfortunately, since I put a bullet through the top of my chrony case today (table was too high for margin of error - will not make that mistake twice!), knocking into some internal parts - I will not be able to test any more until I either repair or replace the chrono (hoping the dealer has some parts available).

The idea of spring tension vs. velocity is worth testing anyway.

I am going to order a 24# spring and get the chrono replaced or repaired as soon as I am able so I can post my own findings.

I could also easily test the theory of 800x, which is slower than Blue dot. Before ripping a nice long hole through the case I was able to get through enough strings to know how to match the velocity of double tap's 200 gr. "controlled expansion" rounds (based on my small sample of 3 measured yesterday), so I suppose we could emulate the spring vs. velocity using that load...
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Old 08-29-2010, 20:28   #77
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One more note:

I am using a 21# spring, not a 22#. I somehow got mixed up about that. Not sure how. The 21# springs aren't strong enough for any of the loads I run through this gun.
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Old 08-31-2010, 08:12   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha6164 View Post
UPDATE:


Someone recommended that changing the spring to a heavier will improve my chrono. I ordered the Wolff 24lb spring and guide rod combination.

I took the G20 to the range yesterday and shot the same ammo with the new spring. The conditions were pretty identical, both days in the low 90s temp wise and same humidity. These tests are a week apart so it is right on. Five shot string and posting the average.



Last week with stock barrel and spring: These are average

DT 135gr = 1463 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1089 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1211 ft/sec


Yesterday with stock barrel and 24lb spring and guide rod: These are average

DT 135gr = 1582 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1214 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1242 ft/sec


There is no question that 24lb spring helped. What is amazing is that it helped the most with the lightest bullet and in ascending order the heavier the bullet the less it improved with the heavier spring but all improved. I guess that there is so much more pressure/powder in the 135gr load that opens the breach face faster and longer changing the velocity.

Just wanted to post this because it somewhat gets DT off the hook. It is possible that at elevation (i am at seal level) those numbers can be another 50ft/sec faster which would be closer to their advertised data.
Just copying to this page, so we do not lose track of what we were originally testing, doubting, or confirming.
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Old 08-31-2010, 18:04   #79
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Quote:
Just copying to this page, so we do not lose track of what we were originally testing, doubting, or confirming.
Good idea. I sent the chrono in yesterday for repair and should have it back within a couple weeks or so. I ordered the 23# springs today from Wolff. I believe it is the max spring they had for the G29. Should work much better for my average load (nuke).

I still have a few rounds of that sissified double tap left, and I have my stock spring and stock barrel, which is obviously easy enough to change back. I will remain skeptical unless proven otherwise through my own results.

Stay tuned.
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Old 08-31-2010, 18:12   #80
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it seems Buffalo Bore is the only commercially recognized regular player for real 10mm loads. theyre the only ones that meet their box flap claims, or at least very close to it no matter who is shooting it and no matter if they have a stoch Glock or after market springs.....still wish they made a 165grainer~ that i could afford.

im leary of the 180grainer at 1350fps for personal defense against bad guys.....seems it would pass through the average bad guy with ease. maybe if this load were toned down to what the others claim to be....
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