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Old 08-03-2010, 11:54   #26
alpha6164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
Can you post the entire shot string numbers instead of just the average?


I dont have them at hand, i am at work. But there was nothing extreme. From whatever the average is posted the shot strings were up and down 10-15f/sec. I would say that shot to shot variance was in the 20-30range.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:47   #27
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of the DT rounds ive shot but not chrono'ed, they all seemed a bit more stout than the other over the counter 10mm h.p. ive gotten from Win STHP, PMC Starfire, and a host of FMJ stuff.

of course without a chronograph i cant say the DT was stouter because it was up to the advertized velocities or that ALL the ammo was slower than listed and the DT was just a bit more than them....
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Old 08-03-2010, 14:08   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheez View Post
I read these threads about eroneous DT velocities on several boards. One thing I have yet to read though is a response from Double Tap. Has anyone that has chronographed their loads contacted the company for an explaination? My experience has been nothing but positive from Double Tap and I would think that Mike would be happy to address complaints.
Well, after three phone calls to DT asking for Mike and or a return call, I finally just emailed him. His responce......"Try backing to at least 15ft from the chrono. You can get skewed results if closer. Thanks.". Hmmm, the other factory ammo that shot as advertised didn't mind being 5 ft. from the chrony.

My results form last month:

Fired 5ft. from chrony. It took me 30 minutes to test. DA was 2,382 at the start, and 2,483 at the end of the test.
All 10mm and 9x25: Glock 20. .45acp from a 5" 1911, 9mm out of a Sig 226, .357sig Glock 33. All factory barrels except the 9x25, LW.

9x25 95 gr. Adv. 1990 fps
1. 1779 Dev. 27 fps
2. 1762
3. 1782
4. 1759
5. 1755
AVG. 1767 -11% from Adv.

9x25 147 gr. Adv. 1495 fps
1. 1251 Dev. 30 fps
2. 1227
3. 1230
4. 1237
5. 1221
AVG. 1233 -17% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Georgia Arms Adv. 1250 fps
1. 1229 Dev. 23 fps
2. 1241
3. 1228
4. 1218
5. 1227
AVG. 1228 -1.5% from Adv.

10mm 180 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1305 fps
1. 1210 Dev. 53 fps
2. 1237
3. 1189
4. 1204
5. 1184
AVG. 1204 -8% from Adv.

10mm 150 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1475 fps
1. 1405 Dev. 84 fps
2. 1346
3. 1321
4. 1344
5. 1385
AVG. 1360 -8% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Bonded Def. JHP Adv. 1400 fps
1. 1294 Dev. 52 fps
2. 1242
3. 1256
4. 1267
5. 1250
AVG. 1261 -10% from Adv.

10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Adv. 1300 fps
1. 1139 Dev. 20 fps
2. 1133
3. 1135
4. 1144
5. 1153
AVG. 1140 -12% from Adv.

10mm 135 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1608 fps
1. 1459 Dev. 89 fps
2. 1453
3. 1475
4. 1427
5. 1516
AVG. 1466 -9% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Golden Saber Adv. 1425 fps
1. 1321 Dev. 51fps
2. 1321
3. 1314
4. 1338
5. 1287
AVG. 1316 -8% from Adv.

.45 ACP 185 gr. Gold Dot Adv. 1225 fps
1. 1299 Dev. 242 fps
2. 1159
3. 1091
4. 1057
5. 1203
AVG. 1161 -5% from Adv.

9mm 124 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1310 fps
1. 1222 Dev 43 fps
2. 1210
3. 1206
4. 1198
5. 1179
AVG. 1203 -7% from Adv.

.357 SIG 125 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1450 fps
1. 1342 Dev. 68 fps
2. 1372
3. 1368
4. 1304
5. 1307
AVG. 1338 -8% from Adv.
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Old 08-03-2010, 14:12   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha6164 View Post
So have been meaning take my G20 to the range for sometime to check some numbers and compare DT to some of the other 10mm i have piled up. I just purchased a nice Chrono at Midway and decided to try it out. Weather was 93deg today so definitely nothing that should limit velocity.


I am just going to list the average of 5 shot string from each load.

DT 135gr = 1463 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1089 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1211 ft/sec
Funny how my avg's. are almost exactly the same as yours.

135 gr. = 1,466
200 gr. = 1,140
180 gr. = 1,204

DT has seen the last $ from me, that's for sure.
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Old 08-03-2010, 14:32   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
Funny how my avg's. are almost exactly the same as yours.

135 gr. = 1,466
200 gr. = 1,140
180 gr. = 1,204

DT has seen the last $ from me, that's for sure.
there are plenty of neophytes to bite on the 10mm loading and DT hype. they will take your place and you wont be missed....sadly.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:38   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
10mm 165 gr. Georgia Arms Adv. 1250 fps
1. 1229 Dev. 23 fps
2. 1241
3. 1228
4. 1218
5. 1227
AVG. 1228 -1.5% from Adv.
GA, according to your data, is the only load even close to it's advertised velocity... interesting.
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Old 08-03-2010, 17:16   #32
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2c5s - Is the 9x25 barrel you used 4.5" or 6"? Thanks in advance.
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Old 08-03-2010, 17:26   #33
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I can't believe you guys actually believed his hyped up numbers to begin with..
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Old 08-03-2010, 17:42   #34
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Originally Posted by gatorboy View Post
2c5s - is the 9x25 barrel you used 4.5" or 6"? Thanks in advance.
5"...
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Old 08-04-2010, 18:13   #35
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Chrono DT 180 GDHP and 165 GR BJHP

I set my chrono up today to check the velocity of 2 Double Tap loads that I had on hand. My Chronograph is a CED Millenium with Infrared sky screens. The IR skyscreens provide consistent illumination for both sensors and have made a noticeable improvement in the consistency of my results since I started using them.

The gun was a G20 with a 4.6" (standard length) EFK barrel. The same gun and barrel length DoubleTap lists for their advertised velocity for these rounds.

Conditions were overcast, 84 deg F, 48% humidity and 29.74in/HG.

I set up the screens and MEASURED 10ft from the center of the screens and fired the first string with some of my handloads just to get things set up. Here is the results of that string:

Millennium Data Collector - 8/4/10
(ƒ = flyers, * = deleted shots)

GROUP #1 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 10ft from center of screens.
1)1139.0 -413.4
2)1628.0 75.6
3)1573.0 20.6
4)1521.0 -31.4
5)1240.0 -312.4
6)1348.0 -204.4
7)1004.0 -548.4
8)1743.0 190.6
9)1854.0 301.6
10)2474.0 921.6ƒ
High: 2474.0
Low: 1004.0
E.S.: 1470.0
Ave.: 1552.4
S.D.: 420.8
95%: ±261.0

I checked the display as I shot and was pretty consistently getting very erratic numbers. I omitted 2 shots that read over 2500fps. Notice shot #10 that I did not omit. Notice also the wild readings for several other shots. This ammo was made using IMR800-X which meters very poorly and significant deviation within about 100fps has been typical in the past. But not this bad. The reason was I was too close to the screens and the muzzle blast was reaching the screens and causing the errant readings.

I backed up to 12ft and tried again with the same load:

GROUP #2 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 12ft from center of screens.
1)1987.0 910.4
2) 305.4 -771.2
3) 834.0 -242.6
4)1104.0 27.4
5)1153.0 76.4
High: 1987.0
Low: 305.4
E.S.: 1681.6
Ave.: 1076.6
S.D.: 610.0
95%: ±535.0
I still got errant readings but better than the 10ft distance. I backed up to 15ft (the distance recommended by McNett ant Double Tap) and tried again:

GROUP #3 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 15ft from center of screens.
1)1120.0 -13.4
2)1135.0 1.6
3)1221.0 87.6
4)1056.0 -77.4
5)1230.0 96.6
6)1222.0 88.6
7)1080.0 -53.4
8)1086.0 -47.4
9)1097.0 -36.4
10)1103.0 -30.4
11)1119.0 -14.4
High: 1230.0
Low: 1056.0
E.S.: 174.0
Ave.: 1133.4
S.D.: 62.0

15ft provided consistent readings. Next loads I tried were Double Tap, 180gr Gold Dot HP:
GROUP #4 Double Tap 180 Gold Dot JHP; 15ft from center of screens. Advertised MV 1400fps
1)1363.0 7.0
2)1325.0 -31.0
3)1365.0 9.0
4)1351.0 -5.0
5)1374.0 18.0
6)1385.0 29.0
7)1380.0 24.0
8)1338.0 -18.0
9)1323.0 -33.0ƒ
10)1361.0 5.0
11)1345.0 -11.0
12)1362.0 6.0
High: 1385.0
Low: 1323.0
E.S.: 62.0
Ave.: 1356.0
S.D.: 20.0
95%: ±11.0
95%: ±37.0

The advertised velocity from DT is 1400fps and you can see my average was 1356 for 12 rounds. I entered this bullet weight and velocity data into JBM ballistic calculator using a Hornady XTP and it calculated a Muzzle Velocity of 1371 fps. With all the potential variables present I think that an advertised velocity of 1400fps is not unreasonable. Indeed shots 6 and 7 were 1385 and 1380fps - 15ft from the muzzle!

Next up were DT's 165gr Brass Jacketed HP:

GROUP #5 DoubleTap 165gr BrassJHP(Golden Sabre); 15ft from center of screens.
Advertised MV 1425fps
1)1318.0 -14.4
2)1353.0 20.6
3)1311.0 -21.4
4)1324.0 -8.4
5)1326.0 -6.4
6)1371.0 38.6
7)1382.0 49.6ƒ
8)1332.0 -0.4
9)1292.0 -40.4
10)1307.0 -25.4
11)1294.0 -38.4
12)1368.0 35.6
13)1345.0 12.6
High: 1382.0
Low: 1292.0
E.S.: 90.0
Ave.: 1332.4
S.D.: 29.2
95%: ±16.0

DT's advertised velocity for these rounds is 1425fps. As you can see, at 15ft from the muzzle they were clocked at an average velocity of 1332fps. JBM calculated a Muzzle Velocity of 1350fps using a Sierra 165 gr bullet, about 75fps less than advertised. Again, with all the variables present and allowing for some lot-to-lot variation I don't think there is any reason to doubt DT's velocity claims for their ammo.
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Old 08-04-2010, 18:24   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
Well, after three phone calls to DT asking for Mike and or a return call, I finally just emailed him. His responce......"Try backing to at least 15ft from the chrono. You can get skewed results if closer. Thanks.". Hmmm, the other factory ammo that shot as advertised didn't mind being 5 ft. from the chrony.

My results form last month:

Fired 5ft. from chrony. It took me 30 minutes to test. DA was 2,382 at the start, and 2,483 at the end of the test.
All 10mm and 9x25: Glock 20. .45acp from a 5" 1911, 9mm out of a Sig 226, .357sig Glock 33. All factory barrels except the 9x25, LW.

9x25 95 gr. Adv. 1990 fps
1. 1779 Dev. 27 fps
2. 1762
3. 1782
4. 1759
5. 1755
AVG. 1767 -11% from Adv.

9x25 147 gr. Adv. 1495 fps
1. 1251 Dev. 30 fps
2. 1227
3. 1230
4. 1237
5. 1221
AVG. 1233 -17% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Georgia Arms Adv. 1250 fps
1. 1229 Dev. 23 fps
2. 1241
3. 1228
4. 1218
5. 1227
AVG. 1228 -1.5% from Adv.

10mm 180 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1305 fps
1. 1210 Dev. 53 fps
2. 1237
3. 1189
4. 1204
5. 1184
AVG. 1204 -8% from Adv.

10mm 150 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1475 fps
1. 1405 Dev. 84 fps
2. 1346
3. 1321
4. 1344
5. 1385
AVG. 1360 -8% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Bonded Def. JHP Adv. 1400 fps
1. 1294 Dev. 52 fps
2. 1242
3. 1256
4. 1267
5. 1250
AVG. 1261 -10% from Adv.

10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Adv. 1300 fps
1. 1139 Dev. 20 fps
2. 1133
3. 1135
4. 1144
5. 1153
AVG. 1140 -12% from Adv.

10mm 135 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1608 fps
1. 1459 Dev. 89 fps
2. 1453
3. 1475
4. 1427
5. 1516
AVG. 1466 -9% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Golden Saber Adv. 1425 fps
1. 1321 Dev. 51fps
2. 1321
3. 1314
4. 1338
5. 1287
AVG. 1316 -8% from Adv.

.45 ACP 185 gr. Gold Dot Adv. 1225 fps
1. 1299 Dev. 242 fps
2. 1159
3. 1091
4. 1057
5. 1203
AVG. 1161 -5% from Adv.

9mm 124 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1310 fps
1. 1222 Dev 43 fps
2. 1210
3. 1206
4. 1198
5. 1179
AVG. 1203 -7% from Adv.

.357 SIG 125 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1450 fps
1. 1342 Dev. 68 fps
2. 1372
3. 1368
4. 1304
5. 1307
AVG. 1338 -8% from Adv.
At 5 feet from the chronograph I am almost positive you were clocking muzzle blast. It WILL significantly skew your results.
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Old 08-04-2010, 18:30   #37
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Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
At 5 feet from the chronograph I am almost positive you were clocking muzzle blast. It WILL significantly skew your results.
I will retest shortly.
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Old 08-04-2010, 19:35   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
GROUP #3 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 15ft from center of screens.
1)1120.0 -13.4
2)1135.0 1.6
3)1221.0 87.6
4)1056.0 -77.4
5)1230.0 96.6
6)1222.0 88.6
7)1080.0 -53.4
8)1086.0 -47.4
9)1097.0 -36.4
10)1103.0 -30.4
11)1119.0 -14.4
High: 1230.0
Low: 1056.0
E.S.: 174.0
Ave.: 1133.4
S.D.: 62.0

15ft provided consistent readings.
In what world?

Quote:
Again, with all the variables present and allowing for some lot-to-lot variation I don't think there is any reason to doubt DT's velocity claims for their ammo.
In my opinion, your figures show that either 1. your chrono is inoperable, and/or 2., there are some serious quality control problems with your handloads.

Based on the large spread your chrono read on D.T. ammo, I believe it is actually BOTH.

If you take a look at 2c5s's #s, they are far more consistent reads than your own(the gold dot .45 ammo is the anomaly - old perhaps?). At that distance, he may have been measuring muzzle blast, but his spread is more reasonable and in line with factory ammo, which uses fairly tight tolerances.

I would suggest testing that chrono with a rimfire using eley tenex out of a rifle - the chrono should read spreads of less than 10fps - typical is 4 or 5 in 10 samples. If you are reading wild spreads like what you have above for the D.T. test, you need to contact the mfgr.
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Old 08-04-2010, 19:59   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
In what world?

In my opinion, your figures show that either 1. your chrono is inoperable, and/or 2., there are some serious quality control problems with your handloads.

Based on the large spread your chrono read on D.T. ammo, I believe it is actually BOTH.

If you take a look at 2c5s's #s, they are far more consistent reads than your own(the gold dot .45 ammo is the anomaly - old perhaps?). At that distance, he may have been measuring muzzle blast, but his spread is more reasonable and in line with factory ammo, which uses fairly tight tolerances.

I would suggest testing that chrono with a rimfire using eley tenex out of a rifle - the chrono should read spreads of less than 10fps - typical is 4 or 5 in 10 samples. If you are reading wild spreads like what you have above for the D.T. test, you need to contact the mfgr.
Consistent readings for the ammo listed. As in my post: the handloads were loaded with an RCBS UNIFLO using IMR800-X. Most handloaders know 800-X meters like corn flakes and you will get significant charge weight variation even throgh an RCBS UNIFLO. The charge weight variation shows up when you chronograph a large sample, exactly like you pointed out. There is nothing wrong with my chrono. And for what these loads were meant for (plinking) they work as intended.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:41   #40
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I individually weigh all of my IMR800X loads weights thrown are far to inconsistent to load with a powder measure...
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Old 08-05-2010, 15:45   #41
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I WILL NOT LOAD 800x with a meter. You are asking for a failure. I don't care if its plinking ammo or any other ammo. With 800X I handload exclusively and it is without any doubts the velocity king of 10mm.

If you want fairly mild velocities, which you would for plinking. Pick up something that meters well and works good in 10mm.

Longshot is my choice and using the same 180g zero hp use 9.1gr to get low 1200s. I measure rounds frequently and using a dillon meter get 9.0- 9.2gr with great consistency.

Powder is cheap - fingers expensive.

My .02
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Old 08-05-2010, 15:58   #42
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I wanted to see just how good or bad IMR800-x would be loading on a progressive press. I knew there was going to be some significant variation and by only loading to 8grs gave what I felt was a good safety margin. As you can see from the extreme spread they varied a lot. Too much to be a valid loading method really. But, if anyone wanted to know how well IMR800-X metered through a Uni-Flo and how much it affected consistency (like I did), there it is.
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Old 08-05-2010, 16:14   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
I set my chrono up today to check the velocity of 2 Double Tap loads that I had on hand. My Chronograph is a CED Millenium with Infrared sky screens. The IR skyscreens provide consistent illumination for both sensors and have made a noticeable improvement in the consistency of my results since I started using them.

The gun was a G20 with a 4.6" (standard length) EFK barrel. The same gun and barrel length DoubleTap lists for their advertised velocity for these rounds.

Conditions were overcast, 84 deg F, 48% humidity and 29.74in/HG.

I set up the screens and MEASURED 10ft from the center of the screens and fired the first string with some of my handloads just to get things set up. Here is the results of that string:

Millennium Data Collector - 8/4/10
(ƒ = flyers, * = deleted shots)

GROUP #1 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 10ft from center of screens.
1)1139.0 -413.4
2)1628.0 75.6
3)1573.0 20.6
4)1521.0 -31.4
5)1240.0 -312.4
6)1348.0 -204.4
7)1004.0 -548.4
8)1743.0 190.6
9)1854.0 301.6
10)2474.0 921.6ƒ
High: 2474.0
Low: 1004.0
E.S.: 1470.0
Ave.: 1552.4
S.D.: 420.8
95%: ±261.0

I checked the display as I shot and was pretty consistently getting very erratic numbers. I omitted 2 shots that read over 2500fps. Notice shot #10 that I did not omit. Notice also the wild readings for several other shots. This ammo was made using IMR800-X which meters very poorly and significant deviation within about 100fps has been typical in the past. But not this bad. The reason was I was too close to the screens and the muzzle blast was reaching the screens and causing the errant readings.

I backed up to 12ft and tried again with the same load:

GROUP #2 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 12ft from center of screens.
1)1987.0 910.4
2) 305.4 -771.2
3) 834.0 -242.6
4)1104.0 27.4
5)1153.0 76.4
High: 1987.0
Low: 305.4
E.S.: 1681.6
Ave.: 1076.6
S.D.: 610.0
95%: ±535.0
I still got errant readings but better than the 10ft distance. I backed up to 15ft (the distance recommended by McNett ant Double Tap) and tried again:

GROUP #3 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 15ft from center of screens.
1)1120.0 -13.4
2)1135.0 1.6
3)1221.0 87.6
4)1056.0 -77.4
5)1230.0 96.6
6)1222.0 88.6
7)1080.0 -53.4
8)1086.0 -47.4
9)1097.0 -36.4
10)1103.0 -30.4
11)1119.0 -14.4
High: 1230.0
Low: 1056.0
E.S.: 174.0
Ave.: 1133.4
S.D.: 62.0

15ft provided consistent readings. Next loads I tried were Double Tap, 180gr Gold Dot HP:
GROUP #4 Double Tap 180 Gold Dot JHP; 15ft from center of screens. Advertised MV 1400fps
1)1363.0 7.0
2)1325.0 -31.0
3)1365.0 9.0
4)1351.0 -5.0
5)1374.0 18.0
6)1385.0 29.0
7)1380.0 24.0
8)1338.0 -18.0
9)1323.0 -33.0ƒ
10)1361.0 5.0
11)1345.0 -11.0
12)1362.0 6.0
High: 1385.0
Low: 1323.0
E.S.: 62.0
Ave.: 1356.0
S.D.: 20.0
95%: ±11.0
95%: ±37.0

The advertised velocity from DT is 1400fps and you can see my average was 1356 for 12 rounds. I entered this bullet weight and velocity data into JBM ballistic calculator using a Hornady XTP and it calculated a Muzzle Velocity of 1371 fps. With all the potential variables present I think that an advertised velocity of 1400fps is not unreasonable. Indeed shots 6 and 7 were 1385 and 1380fps - 15ft from the muzzle!

Next up were DT's 165gr Brass Jacketed HP:

GROUP #5 DoubleTap 165gr BrassJHP(Golden Sabre); 15ft from center of screens.
Advertised MV 1425fps
1)1318.0 -14.4
2)1353.0 20.6
3)1311.0 -21.4
4)1324.0 -8.4
5)1326.0 -6.4
6)1371.0 38.6
7)1382.0 49.6ƒ
8)1332.0 -0.4
9)1292.0 -40.4
10)1307.0 -25.4
11)1294.0 -38.4
12)1368.0 35.6
13)1345.0 12.6
High: 1382.0
Low: 1292.0
E.S.: 90.0
Ave.: 1332.4
S.D.: 29.2
95%: ±16.0

DT's advertised velocity for these rounds is 1425fps. As you can see, at 15ft from the muzzle they were clocked at an average velocity of 1332fps. JBM calculated a Muzzle Velocity of 1350fps using a Sierra 165 gr bullet, about 75fps less than advertised. Again, with all the variables present and allowing for some lot-to-lot variation I don't think there is any reason to doubt DT's velocity claims for their ammo.
Jumper, thanks for your hard work and time-expenditure to vet DT's loads.

2c5s' chrono work was done 5-feet from the muzzle and with the 10mm's blast that's sure to skew the results.

If people testing DT 10mm ammo want to get McNett's exact fps/fpe results, then they have to duplicate exactly HIS conditions - no sniveling.

If that's impossible, given variations from McNett's due to the tester's elevation, temp, humidity, barrel-length, poor quality chronograph equipment, improper chrono technique and/or procedure, then the tester has to factor all of that in, given the readings obtained. However, moving back the chronograph equipment to 15-ft isn't impossible.

Any differences or variations that result aren't McNett's fault.

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Last edited by agtman; 08-07-2010 at 05:32..
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Old 08-07-2010, 08:42   #44
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Jumper, thanks for your hard work and time-expenditure to vet DT's loads.

2c5s' chrono work was done 5-feet from the muzzle and with the 10mm's blast that's sure to skew the results.

If people testing DT 10mm ammo want to get McNett's exact fps/fpe results, then they have to duplicate exactly HIS conditions - no sniveling.

If that's impossible, given variations from McNett's due to the tester's elevation, temp, humidity, barrel-length, poor quality chronograph equipment, improper chrono technique and/or procedure, then the tester has to factor all of that in, given the readings obtained. However, moving back the chronograph equipment to 15-ft isn't impossible.

Any differences or variations that result aren't McNett's fault.


I'm going re-test shortly. I find it interesting that other factory ammo I tested in the same session was spot on to advertised velocity figures.

There's no doubt that DT ammo is hotter than most, but it's not what they claim.

We will see, my results will be up shortly.
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:07   #45
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Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
I'm going re-test shortly. I find it interesting that other factory ammo I tested in the same session was spot on to advertised velocity figures.

There's no doubt that DT ammo is hotter than most, but it's not what they claim.
We will see, my results will be up shortly.
2c5s: don't get me wrong, ... I appreciate that you, Jumper and others here get out and test various 10mm ammo, and then post the results, ... thanks much, as your time & effort benefits us all.

But you're not the first to vet DT's advertised velocity for its 10mm load, as 10mm fans have been posting their finding for a while, starting back about a year or so after he began the business, IIRC. Nor is it just DT 10mm loads. In fact, not too long ago a poster chrono-ed DT's .357Sig loads and reported results that were consistently 50-75fps faster than Mike's "box-flap" velocity. Maybe his were skewed (the other way) too? Who knows?

As Jumper implied in reference to DT's 165gn GS 10mm load, a reading 50-75fps more or less than DT's claimed velocity really isn't going to bother me, since it's still a high-performance load.

I do agree, however, that where you're consistently finding 100-150fps difference from the claimed velocity, and assuming you've duplicated McNett's testing conditions, etc, ... yeah, then he needs to be notified with the specs and lot # of the ammo that was tested and with your results/findings. I would then expect to see some response from him.

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Old 08-07-2010, 12:44   #46
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Mcnett was the person that shared his 10mm data then factory loads that gave us the true potential of the 10mm round...

I have nothing but praise for him even if his factory ammo is a bit off its advertised velocities so is every major ammo manufacturer out there...
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Old 08-07-2010, 18:09   #47
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Mcnett was the person that shared his 10mm data then factory loads that gave us the true potential of the 10mm round...

I have nothing but praise for him even if his factory ammo is a bit off its advertised velocities so is every major ammo manufacturer out there...
I for one don't consider DT a major manufacturer. They are a niche catridge company that gets top dollar for their advertised performance. Of which they are falling short.

GA, CB, BB, they achieve their advertised velocity figures. DT is falling short and they know it, they could care less.
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Old 08-08-2010, 08:09   #48
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Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
I for one don't consider DT a major manufacturer. They are a niche catridge company that gets top dollar for their advertised performance. Of which they are falling short.

GA, CB, BB, they achieve their advertised velocity figures. DT is falling short and they know it, they could care less.
you say that like youve rechecked them from 15' away already. what were your results from that outing?

i havent shot BB but i have shot CB and i did not notice a difference between the CB 135gr. and the DT 135 gr. except for the price was about twice as high for the CB. BB of course doesnt make a load lighter than 180 gr. and GA doesnt even prentend to say they load 10mm to true levels.....in fact they load their 180gr. H.P. @ 1150 fps. hardly 10mm stats. they are only a plinking ammo and brass player.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:09   #49
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Where did I state that they are a major manufacturer I said like every major manufacturer meaning if the big boys do it why do we expect so much more from the little guy?

I've been loading for the 10mm since 1988 but it wasn't until I found Mcnett and his data that I was able to get the velocities I was looking for due to this I totally support his company that I also reload makes it so I am not solely dependant on his products...
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:00   #50
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Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
I for one don't consider DT a major manufacturer. They are a niche catridge company that gets top dollar for their advertised performance. Of which they are falling short.

GA, CB, BB, they achieve their advertised velocity figures. DT is falling short and they know it, they could care less.
Actually, GA makes mid-rangish 10mm loads and doesn't care to load to full-strength (high-performance) levels, per the owner to whom I've spoken.

CB's 10mm loads vary. Most of the SD loads are mid-range or tread into upper mid-range for the bullet-weight. Their 200gn "hunting" load appears to be Norma-level, but (per their ballistic tech) they spec their velocities from a 5" test barrel. From a G20's 4.6" tube, that 200gn load is doing 1150fps (again, per the CB tech). Just FYI.

BB does make high-performance 10mm ammo, but the last time I checked they offer exactly two loads - compared to DT, or even CB, which offer way more variety in this caliber. BTW, I've shot both BB 10mm loads and both were full-strength, accurate ammo. My only real beef with BB's 10mm is pricing - for what you pay for a couple of their 20-rd boxes you'll do better with DT's 50-rd boxes, plus there's the shipping factor if you order in volume.

As far as "major manufacturers" go, if you're talking about relative company size, then all those mentioned, plus Hornady and Black Hills (BH), are "niche" ammo producers, none of them being anywhere near the operational size of the big three.

In fact, like DT, BH has been a small family outfit for most of its existence, yet it makes for the U.S. miliary the 5.56mm 77gn OTM (Mk 262 MOD 1) combat load. Pretty prestigious for a small "niche" operation, no?

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