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Old 08-02-2010, 18:09   #21
cheez
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I read these threads about eroneous DT velocities on several boards. One thing I have yet to read though is a response from Double Tap. Has anyone that has chronographed their loads contacted the company for an explaination? My experience has been nothing but positive from Double Tap and I would think that Mike would be happy to address complaints.
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Old 08-02-2010, 19:34   #22
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Chronograph?

There are variances in chronographs especially when used with natural lighting.
When McNett was developing his 10mm loads here on the 10 Ring, he was using an Oehler 35 ballistic explorer. Thats probably the best chrono that can be bought by mere mortals. Depending on what chrono the OP was using could have a big effect on reported velocities.

I know this; I chronographed DT 165gr loads over my CED Millenium and got velocities very close to the advertised velocities. Double Tap Ammo is good to go in my book.
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Old 08-02-2010, 19:56   #23
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I still carry the 155 Barnes, because (without much research) I don't know who else loads that. High speed, huge cavity, perfect expansion and weight retention. What else am I to do?
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:29   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheez View Post
I read these threads about eroneous DT velocities on several boards. One thing I have yet to read though is a response from Double Tap. Has anyone that has chronographed their loads contacted the company for an explaination? My experience has been nothing but positive from Double Tap and I would think that Mike would be happy to address complaints.

This would only make sense if all my chorono readings were off. In the same session i also chronod several other ammo and guns for my own good and all were right on the money. My 9mm 147gr Federal HST chrono'd at 951ft/sec out of M&P9c and Federal XM193 55gr showed 3032 ft/sec out of a 14.5" barrel during the same sitting. This shows that the chrono is reading right.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:51   #25
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Originally Posted by alpha6164 View Post
This would only make sense if all my chorono readings were off. In the same session i also chronod several other ammo and guns for my own good and all were right on the money. My 9mm 147gr Federal HST chrono'd at 951ft/sec out of M&P9c and Federal XM193 55gr showed 3032 ft/sec out of a 14.5" barrel during the same sitting. This shows that the chrono is reading right.
Can you post the entire shot string numbers instead of just the average?
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:54   #26
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Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
Can you post the entire shot string numbers instead of just the average?


I dont have them at hand, i am at work. But there was nothing extreme. From whatever the average is posted the shot strings were up and down 10-15f/sec. I would say that shot to shot variance was in the 20-30range.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:47   #27
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of the DT rounds ive shot but not chrono'ed, they all seemed a bit more stout than the other over the counter 10mm h.p. ive gotten from Win STHP, PMC Starfire, and a host of FMJ stuff.

of course without a chronograph i cant say the DT was stouter because it was up to the advertized velocities or that ALL the ammo was slower than listed and the DT was just a bit more than them....
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Old 08-03-2010, 14:08   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheez View Post
I read these threads about eroneous DT velocities on several boards. One thing I have yet to read though is a response from Double Tap. Has anyone that has chronographed their loads contacted the company for an explaination? My experience has been nothing but positive from Double Tap and I would think that Mike would be happy to address complaints.
Well, after three phone calls to DT asking for Mike and or a return call, I finally just emailed him. His responce......"Try backing to at least 15ft from the chrono. You can get skewed results if closer. Thanks.". Hmmm, the other factory ammo that shot as advertised didn't mind being 5 ft. from the chrony.

My results form last month:

Fired 5ft. from chrony. It took me 30 minutes to test. DA was 2,382 at the start, and 2,483 at the end of the test.
All 10mm and 9x25: Glock 20. .45acp from a 5" 1911, 9mm out of a Sig 226, .357sig Glock 33. All factory barrels except the 9x25, LW.

9x25 95 gr. Adv. 1990 fps
1. 1779 Dev. 27 fps
2. 1762
3. 1782
4. 1759
5. 1755
AVG. 1767 -11% from Adv.

9x25 147 gr. Adv. 1495 fps
1. 1251 Dev. 30 fps
2. 1227
3. 1230
4. 1237
5. 1221
AVG. 1233 -17% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Georgia Arms Adv. 1250 fps
1. 1229 Dev. 23 fps
2. 1241
3. 1228
4. 1218
5. 1227
AVG. 1228 -1.5% from Adv.

10mm 180 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1305 fps
1. 1210 Dev. 53 fps
2. 1237
3. 1189
4. 1204
5. 1184
AVG. 1204 -8% from Adv.

10mm 150 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1475 fps
1. 1405 Dev. 84 fps
2. 1346
3. 1321
4. 1344
5. 1385
AVG. 1360 -8% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Bonded Def. JHP Adv. 1400 fps
1. 1294 Dev. 52 fps
2. 1242
3. 1256
4. 1267
5. 1250
AVG. 1261 -10% from Adv.

10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Adv. 1300 fps
1. 1139 Dev. 20 fps
2. 1133
3. 1135
4. 1144
5. 1153
AVG. 1140 -12% from Adv.

10mm 135 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1608 fps
1. 1459 Dev. 89 fps
2. 1453
3. 1475
4. 1427
5. 1516
AVG. 1466 -9% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Golden Saber Adv. 1425 fps
1. 1321 Dev. 51fps
2. 1321
3. 1314
4. 1338
5. 1287
AVG. 1316 -8% from Adv.

.45 ACP 185 gr. Gold Dot Adv. 1225 fps
1. 1299 Dev. 242 fps
2. 1159
3. 1091
4. 1057
5. 1203
AVG. 1161 -5% from Adv.

9mm 124 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1310 fps
1. 1222 Dev 43 fps
2. 1210
3. 1206
4. 1198
5. 1179
AVG. 1203 -7% from Adv.

.357 SIG 125 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1450 fps
1. 1342 Dev. 68 fps
2. 1372
3. 1368
4. 1304
5. 1307
AVG. 1338 -8% from Adv.
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Old 08-03-2010, 14:12   #29
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Originally Posted by alpha6164 View Post
So have been meaning take my G20 to the range for sometime to check some numbers and compare DT to some of the other 10mm i have piled up. I just purchased a nice Chrono at Midway and decided to try it out. Weather was 93deg today so definitely nothing that should limit velocity.


I am just going to list the average of 5 shot string from each load.

DT 135gr = 1463 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1089 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1211 ft/sec
Funny how my avg's. are almost exactly the same as yours.

135 gr. = 1,466
200 gr. = 1,140
180 gr. = 1,204

DT has seen the last $ from me, that's for sure.
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Old 08-03-2010, 14:32   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
Funny how my avg's. are almost exactly the same as yours.

135 gr. = 1,466
200 gr. = 1,140
180 gr. = 1,204

DT has seen the last $ from me, that's for sure.
there are plenty of neophytes to bite on the 10mm loading and DT hype. they will take your place and you wont be missed....sadly.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:38   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
10mm 165 gr. Georgia Arms Adv. 1250 fps
1. 1229 Dev. 23 fps
2. 1241
3. 1228
4. 1218
5. 1227
AVG. 1228 -1.5% from Adv.
GA, according to your data, is the only load even close to it's advertised velocity... interesting.
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Old 08-03-2010, 17:16   #32
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2c5s - Is the 9x25 barrel you used 4.5" or 6"? Thanks in advance.
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Old 08-03-2010, 17:26   #33
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I can't believe you guys actually believed his hyped up numbers to begin with..
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Old 08-03-2010, 17:42   #34
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2c5s - is the 9x25 barrel you used 4.5" or 6"? Thanks in advance.
5"...
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Old 08-04-2010, 18:13   #35
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Chrono DT 180 GDHP and 165 GR BJHP

I set my chrono up today to check the velocity of 2 Double Tap loads that I had on hand. My Chronograph is a CED Millenium with Infrared sky screens. The IR skyscreens provide consistent illumination for both sensors and have made a noticeable improvement in the consistency of my results since I started using them.

The gun was a G20 with a 4.6" (standard length) EFK barrel. The same gun and barrel length DoubleTap lists for their advertised velocity for these rounds.

Conditions were overcast, 84 deg F, 48% humidity and 29.74in/HG.

I set up the screens and MEASURED 10ft from the center of the screens and fired the first string with some of my handloads just to get things set up. Here is the results of that string:

Millennium Data Collector - 8/4/10
(ƒ = flyers, * = deleted shots)

GROUP #1 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 10ft from center of screens.
1)1139.0 -413.4
2)1628.0 75.6
3)1573.0 20.6
4)1521.0 -31.4
5)1240.0 -312.4
6)1348.0 -204.4
7)1004.0 -548.4
8)1743.0 190.6
9)1854.0 301.6
10)2474.0 921.6ƒ
High: 2474.0
Low: 1004.0
E.S.: 1470.0
Ave.: 1552.4
S.D.: 420.8
95%: ±261.0

I checked the display as I shot and was pretty consistently getting very erratic numbers. I omitted 2 shots that read over 2500fps. Notice shot #10 that I did not omit. Notice also the wild readings for several other shots. This ammo was made using IMR800-X which meters very poorly and significant deviation within about 100fps has been typical in the past. But not this bad. The reason was I was too close to the screens and the muzzle blast was reaching the screens and causing the errant readings.

I backed up to 12ft and tried again with the same load:

GROUP #2 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 12ft from center of screens.
1)1987.0 910.4
2) 305.4 -771.2
3) 834.0 -242.6
4)1104.0 27.4
5)1153.0 76.4
High: 1987.0
Low: 305.4
E.S.: 1681.6
Ave.: 1076.6
S.D.: 610.0
95%: ±535.0
I still got errant readings but better than the 10ft distance. I backed up to 15ft (the distance recommended by McNett ant Double Tap) and tried again:

GROUP #3 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 15ft from center of screens.
1)1120.0 -13.4
2)1135.0 1.6
3)1221.0 87.6
4)1056.0 -77.4
5)1230.0 96.6
6)1222.0 88.6
7)1080.0 -53.4
8)1086.0 -47.4
9)1097.0 -36.4
10)1103.0 -30.4
11)1119.0 -14.4
High: 1230.0
Low: 1056.0
E.S.: 174.0
Ave.: 1133.4
S.D.: 62.0

15ft provided consistent readings. Next loads I tried were Double Tap, 180gr Gold Dot HP:
GROUP #4 Double Tap 180 Gold Dot JHP; 15ft from center of screens. Advertised MV 1400fps
1)1363.0 7.0
2)1325.0 -31.0
3)1365.0 9.0
4)1351.0 -5.0
5)1374.0 18.0
6)1385.0 29.0
7)1380.0 24.0
8)1338.0 -18.0
9)1323.0 -33.0ƒ
10)1361.0 5.0
11)1345.0 -11.0
12)1362.0 6.0
High: 1385.0
Low: 1323.0
E.S.: 62.0
Ave.: 1356.0
S.D.: 20.0
95%: ±11.0
95%: ±37.0

The advertised velocity from DT is 1400fps and you can see my average was 1356 for 12 rounds. I entered this bullet weight and velocity data into JBM ballistic calculator using a Hornady XTP and it calculated a Muzzle Velocity of 1371 fps. With all the potential variables present I think that an advertised velocity of 1400fps is not unreasonable. Indeed shots 6 and 7 were 1385 and 1380fps - 15ft from the muzzle!

Next up were DT's 165gr Brass Jacketed HP:

GROUP #5 DoubleTap 165gr BrassJHP(Golden Sabre); 15ft from center of screens.
Advertised MV 1425fps
1)1318.0 -14.4
2)1353.0 20.6
3)1311.0 -21.4
4)1324.0 -8.4
5)1326.0 -6.4
6)1371.0 38.6
7)1382.0 49.6ƒ
8)1332.0 -0.4
9)1292.0 -40.4
10)1307.0 -25.4
11)1294.0 -38.4
12)1368.0 35.6
13)1345.0 12.6
High: 1382.0
Low: 1292.0
E.S.: 90.0
Ave.: 1332.4
S.D.: 29.2
95%: ±16.0

DT's advertised velocity for these rounds is 1425fps. As you can see, at 15ft from the muzzle they were clocked at an average velocity of 1332fps. JBM calculated a Muzzle Velocity of 1350fps using a Sierra 165 gr bullet, about 75fps less than advertised. Again, with all the variables present and allowing for some lot-to-lot variation I don't think there is any reason to doubt DT's velocity claims for their ammo.
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Old 08-04-2010, 18:24   #36
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Originally Posted by 2c5s View Post
Well, after three phone calls to DT asking for Mike and or a return call, I finally just emailed him. His responce......"Try backing to at least 15ft from the chrono. You can get skewed results if closer. Thanks.". Hmmm, the other factory ammo that shot as advertised didn't mind being 5 ft. from the chrony.

My results form last month:

Fired 5ft. from chrony. It took me 30 minutes to test. DA was 2,382 at the start, and 2,483 at the end of the test.
All 10mm and 9x25: Glock 20. .45acp from a 5" 1911, 9mm out of a Sig 226, .357sig Glock 33. All factory barrels except the 9x25, LW.

9x25 95 gr. Adv. 1990 fps
1. 1779 Dev. 27 fps
2. 1762
3. 1782
4. 1759
5. 1755
AVG. 1767 -11% from Adv.

9x25 147 gr. Adv. 1495 fps
1. 1251 Dev. 30 fps
2. 1227
3. 1230
4. 1237
5. 1221
AVG. 1233 -17% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Georgia Arms Adv. 1250 fps
1. 1229 Dev. 23 fps
2. 1241
3. 1228
4. 1218
5. 1227
AVG. 1228 -1.5% from Adv.

10mm 180 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1305 fps
1. 1210 Dev. 53 fps
2. 1237
3. 1189
4. 1204
5. 1184
AVG. 1204 -8% from Adv.

10mm 150 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1475 fps
1. 1405 Dev. 84 fps
2. 1346
3. 1321
4. 1344
5. 1385
AVG. 1360 -8% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Bonded Def. JHP Adv. 1400 fps
1. 1294 Dev. 52 fps
2. 1242
3. 1256
4. 1267
5. 1250
AVG. 1261 -10% from Adv.

10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Adv. 1300 fps
1. 1139 Dev. 20 fps
2. 1133
3. 1135
4. 1144
5. 1153
AVG. 1140 -12% from Adv.

10mm 135 gr. Nosler JHP Adv. 1608 fps
1. 1459 Dev. 89 fps
2. 1453
3. 1475
4. 1427
5. 1516
AVG. 1466 -9% from Adv.

10mm 165 gr. Golden Saber Adv. 1425 fps
1. 1321 Dev. 51fps
2. 1321
3. 1314
4. 1338
5. 1287
AVG. 1316 -8% from Adv.

.45 ACP 185 gr. Gold Dot Adv. 1225 fps
1. 1299 Dev. 242 fps
2. 1159
3. 1091
4. 1057
5. 1203
AVG. 1161 -5% from Adv.

9mm 124 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1310 fps
1. 1222 Dev 43 fps
2. 1210
3. 1206
4. 1198
5. 1179
AVG. 1203 -7% from Adv.

.357 SIG 125 gr. Bonded Defense Adv. 1450 fps
1. 1342 Dev. 68 fps
2. 1372
3. 1368
4. 1304
5. 1307
AVG. 1338 -8% from Adv.
At 5 feet from the chronograph I am almost positive you were clocking muzzle blast. It WILL significantly skew your results.
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Old 08-04-2010, 18:30   #37
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At 5 feet from the chronograph I am almost positive you were clocking muzzle blast. It WILL significantly skew your results.
I will retest shortly.
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Old 08-04-2010, 19:35   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
GROUP #3 Handloads: Row 137; 180gr ZeroJHP; 8.0gr Imr 800-x; CCI350primer; COL 1.250;
Powder dispensed with an RCBS Uniflo. 15ft from center of screens.
1)1120.0 -13.4
2)1135.0 1.6
3)1221.0 87.6
4)1056.0 -77.4
5)1230.0 96.6
6)1222.0 88.6
7)1080.0 -53.4
8)1086.0 -47.4
9)1097.0 -36.4
10)1103.0 -30.4
11)1119.0 -14.4
High: 1230.0
Low: 1056.0
E.S.: 174.0
Ave.: 1133.4
S.D.: 62.0

15ft provided consistent readings.
In what world?

Quote:
Again, with all the variables present and allowing for some lot-to-lot variation I don't think there is any reason to doubt DT's velocity claims for their ammo.
In my opinion, your figures show that either 1. your chrono is inoperable, and/or 2., there are some serious quality control problems with your handloads.

Based on the large spread your chrono read on D.T. ammo, I believe it is actually BOTH.

If you take a look at 2c5s's #s, they are far more consistent reads than your own(the gold dot .45 ammo is the anomaly - old perhaps?). At that distance, he may have been measuring muzzle blast, but his spread is more reasonable and in line with factory ammo, which uses fairly tight tolerances.

I would suggest testing that chrono with a rimfire using eley tenex out of a rifle - the chrono should read spreads of less than 10fps - typical is 4 or 5 in 10 samples. If you are reading wild spreads like what you have above for the D.T. test, you need to contact the mfgr.
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Old 08-04-2010, 19:59   #39
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In what world?

In my opinion, your figures show that either 1. your chrono is inoperable, and/or 2., there are some serious quality control problems with your handloads.

Based on the large spread your chrono read on D.T. ammo, I believe it is actually BOTH.

If you take a look at 2c5s's #s, they are far more consistent reads than your own(the gold dot .45 ammo is the anomaly - old perhaps?). At that distance, he may have been measuring muzzle blast, but his spread is more reasonable and in line with factory ammo, which uses fairly tight tolerances.

I would suggest testing that chrono with a rimfire using eley tenex out of a rifle - the chrono should read spreads of less than 10fps - typical is 4 or 5 in 10 samples. If you are reading wild spreads like what you have above for the D.T. test, you need to contact the mfgr.
Consistent readings for the ammo listed. As in my post: the handloads were loaded with an RCBS UNIFLO using IMR800-X. Most handloaders know 800-X meters like corn flakes and you will get significant charge weight variation even throgh an RCBS UNIFLO. The charge weight variation shows up when you chronograph a large sample, exactly like you pointed out. There is nothing wrong with my chrono. And for what these loads were meant for (plinking) they work as intended.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:41   #40
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I individually weigh all of my IMR800X loads weights thrown are far to inconsistent to load with a powder measure...
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