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Old 06-24-2010, 14:49   #161
Bren
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This very true, Bren.

'Border states' Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Missouri were allowed to keep slavery as long as they did not officially secede from the US and join the Confederacy.

Some occupied areas under Union control in Virginia could keep their slaves also.
Also, parts of Louisiana, around NOLA.
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Old 06-24-2010, 15:07   #162
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Actually, who gives a ****?

I wish you dumbass yankees and dumbass hillbillies would forget about the past and look toward the future.

We are facing an enemy who does not care one bit on which side of the Mason-Dixon Line we live.

They just are counting on us not getting along.
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Old 06-24-2010, 22:49   #163
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Bren,

A thousand thanks for your post concerning the forgotten men in gray. You mentioned Nelson Winbush. I have had the very distinct pleasure of meeting him on several occasions. I have had the honor to have held to my breast and have kissed the Southern Cross that was draped over his grandfather's casket.* Once, as he was gathering up his display, a small fragment of thread fell from his grandfather's old gray kepi. (pronounced kay-pee) That tiny piece of thread is amongst my most prized possessions.
Mr. Winbush's grandfather you see was a slave and a black Confederate soldier. He attended 39 Confederate reunions and asked to be buried with his reunion medals. All but about four medals, which could not be found at the time of the funeral, were interred with him. I have held these encased medals in my hands.

* Each time I see the old "Southern Cross" (when it is properly and rightfully displayed) I salute it, nod to it, or when possible, I press it to my breast and kiss it in memory of those who fought for it and fell beside it. It is my flag.

Mushinto,

I "gives a =====! " The blood of my ancestors was poured out for that flag, and I will not forget them! They died that this nation. So concieved in liberty. Of, by, and for the people, that it would not perish from the earth. Sadly that dream was defeated. That nation did perish from the earth. But their flag. My flag. Still waves for the same reason and for the same freedoms. DEO VINDICE!!

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Old 06-25-2010, 07:37   #164
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My flag has 50 stars.
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Old 06-25-2010, 08:07   #165
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Something happened since then to change the idea of what the flag stands for.
You pose an interesting question, maybe it is based upon the perceived views of those who fly the flag. Has the display of the Confederate Flag increased or decreased and what are the motivations of those who fly it? It has to be one of the most beautiful flags ever designed.
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:38   #166
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It has to be one of the most beautiful flags ever designed.
Agreed.

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Old 06-25-2010, 10:07   #167
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It is my guess that ignorance is the reason that many people do not like the Confederate flag. Most of the people who hate this flag don't even know that it is the Confederate Naval Jack flag. It was displayed by Confederate ships.

The Confederate battle flag carried by soldiers on land was square not rectangular.

As it has been said... not a single slave ever came to the US from Africa on a ship flying the Confederate flag. They came on US ships flying the US flag and also they came on European ships.

Also as already noted here...

The US had slavery for 90 years.

If you go back to when we were British colonies, we had slavery here for over 200 years.

The Confederacy only had slavery for 4 years.

Most of the people who have issues with the Confederate flag need a history lesson.

By the way here is the Confederate flag...No one seems offended by this flag.

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Old 06-26-2010, 15:41   #168
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Actually, who gives a ****?

I wish you dumbass yankees and dumbass hillbillies would forget about the past and look toward the future.

We are facing an enemy who does not care one bit on which side of the Mason-Dixon Line we live.

They just are counting on us not getting along.
From a southern standpoint, it's hard to imagine an enemy more dangerous to us than the yankee in the white house, than and now.
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Old 06-26-2010, 16:09   #169
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From a southern standpoint, it's hard to imagine an enemy more dangerous to us than the yankee in the white house, than and now.
Yankee? Yankee?

What? Is he from NORTH KENYA or something?

Even if he had been born in, say Hawaii, He would not be a Yankee.

Bill Clinton lives in NYC, but he is NOT A YANKEE.

He's one of yourn.



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Old 06-26-2010, 16:29   #170
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Don't point your fingers at the north as the cause of America's problems. L. B Johnson was not a Yankee, nor is Jimmy Carter or Al Gore. But all three are vets does that mean you want to slam the American legion?.
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Old 07-08-2010, 15:21   #171
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As to the beauty of the "Southern Cross", -square or rectangular- as Jack Nicholson (as "The Joker") said in the original Tim Burton "Batman" movie... "I don't know if its art, but I like it!"

If you ever see rectangular Southern cross with no star in the center, it is either General Jackson's or General Forrest's flag. Both flags were produced before Kentucky was counted amongst the Southern Confederacy.

The flag's crossed bars is a St. Andrew's cross. St. Andrew, Christ's 1st disciple, considered himself unworthy to be crucified in the manner as his saviour and convinced his executioners to tie him to the X upside down though he was in his late 80's. He survived for three days witnessing to passerby in unimaginable agony. Finally, he was ordered cut down but he had died shortly before he was released. Funny how a symbol that honors a Christian and a Jew is supposedly a "racist" or anti Jewish image.

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Old 07-08-2010, 15:46   #172
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There is a word for "Southerners" like LBJ, Carter, Gore, Clinton, Andrew Johnson, Sam Houston, et al.

The term is "Scalawag" and scalawags are held in lower contempt by patriotic Southerners than Yankees.

If thats possible.

Its another word for traitor or turncoat.

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Old 07-10-2010, 15:16   #173
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"The South is scceeding from the North because the two are not homogeneous. They have different instincts, different appetites, different morals, and a different culture."

Anthony Trollope, a British citizen who traveled in the North and South during the early part of the war.

"Governor, if I had forseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Court house; no sir, not by me. Had I forseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand!"

General Robert E. Lee in a private conversation with Governor Stockdale of Texas.
August, 1870.

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Old 07-11-2010, 16:51   #174
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As a former enlisted man, Lee's willingness to waste the lives of thousands more southern men in futile gestures makes me cringe. But I am not fit to judge a 19th Century aristocrat.

It is ironic that when Lee surrendered, the very strong President of the United States on March 4, 1865 had already announced his postwar policy:
“With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.“

Lincoln was murdered soon after the end of the war and weaker men were left to direct the reconstruction. I suspect the post war period would have been much better for the confederacy if Lincoln remained president.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:09   #175
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Now that we've heard from the pagan left, I guess this thread is complete.

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Well, you got the pagan part right anyway...
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Old 07-16-2010, 18:21   #176
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Richard,

With only a nod, Lee could have continued the war for decades as a guerrilla action. Many of his officers and men pleaded with him for just his nod. Just a hint of his blessing.Thousands of trained troops could have melted into the mountains and harried the Union invader much as the Viet Cong would do 100 years later. The bloodletting could be going on till this day.

It was the worst fear the Northern generals imagined.

With only a nod... But he advised his men and the Southern Confederacy to be "good Americans", even to sign the hated pledge to never take up arms against the Federal monster again.

Still. He wished he had died leading his troops wrather than live under the despot's heel.

"Had I forseen the results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand!" "There would have been no surrender..." No braver man ever took the breath of life.

I too believe it may have gone better for the South had Lincoln lived. But Lincoln had a terrible habit of talking out of both sides of his mouth. And. I also believe Lincoln was murdered by a cabal of his own for his feared "soft treatment" of the South. But that is another story.

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Old 07-17-2010, 10:26   #177
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There are many others on this board who can discuss guerilla warfare based on current experience. But here is my take:

Lee recognized that these proposals were pipe dreams and did not OK them. National Redoubts are always part of a discussion but in recent history they have not played a big part in warfare. I'm not sure that the mountain people would welcome the confederate soldiers since they tended to have anti slavery feelings as a group. Whatever support that might be provided by the indigenous mountaineers would not last for long after the US government began sending troops in to find the holdouts. The mountaineers tend not to like outsiders messing around on their turf.

I welcome those who have more information on the subject to interject.
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Old 07-17-2010, 13:01   #178
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Lincoln was murdered soon after the end of the war and weaker men were left to direct the reconstruction. I suspect the post war period would have been much better for the confederacy if Lincoln remained president.
I would agree that the post war period would have been better for the South if Lincoln had not been killed.

However, the war was not over when Lincoln was killed. Lee had surrendered only his Army of Northern Virginia. Several other armies were still in the field.

About Lincolns death...The Dahlgren papers affair prove that the Union was trying to assassinate Confederate President Jefferson Davis and members of his cabinet.

And of course, the Commander-In-Chief is a perfectly legitimate target.

The US has tried to kill other country's Presidents several times.
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Old 07-17-2010, 13:12   #179
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If the Southern Army had "melted into the mountains" they would have starved to death in a season... Hell, they wouldn't have any slaves with them to grow their food!
And part of Gray Rider's rationalization for keeping slaves is people would starve if the slaves were freed. So by extension the southern "guerrilla" Army would logically die for lack of food... But the Southern Army was starving when it had open lines of communication and freedom of maneuver. They wouldn't make it a season holed up in the mountains. And they also would be ineffective in any military sense. Several Indian tribes tried the same strategy in the 19th century and ended up starving and dead too.

Lincoln was a Southerner by birth BTW... Born in Hodgenville KY....

You want to see what a southern "guerrila" fights like...look at John Hunt Morgan's murderous raids on civilian farms.... Seems like there were scalawags on both sides...
My wife's family was from Paintsville KY and Morgan's raiders "visited" that quiet mountain town during the war. Seems the Confederate soldier's had a similar notion of chivalry and valor to that of General Sherman during his march to the sea! There were plenty of demons on both sides of this thing. Blue and Gray...
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Old 07-18-2010, 01:11   #180
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If the Southern Army had "melted into the mountains" they would have starved to death in a season... Hell, they wouldn't have any slaves with them to grow their food!
And part of Gray Rider's rationalization for keeping slaves is people would starve if the slaves were freed.
Jethro, why did Union states keep their slaves after all the Confederate slaves were freed?
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