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Old 03-22-2012, 07:27   #561
EmbryRiddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clancy View Post
The reason it is difficult to find anything negative or criminal written about Stalin, Lenin, Mao or Hitler was that to do so would have been an immediate death sentence, or a slower one via Gulag or concentration camp.

That you would even compare Lincoln to the above list of mass murderers, and that you see no difference between those who aquiesced to those respective murderous regimes out of fear for their and their family's lives to those who do not fall in lockstep with your myopic view on that sad period in American history shows just how ridiculous your premise is.

You repeat the same old worn out phrases I grew up listening to. When I was 10 I thought there was merit to them. When I began studying the Civil War, and the reason behind it, it was a catharthic experience for me. There are members of my family, to my great embarrassment, who still believe that the South was right, that slavery was not only a benign instituion but that if we still had slavery most of this country's problems would not exist, and that serving in the "Yankee" army is something no true Southron would do to this day.

"History is written by the victors"? You obviously haven't been to a bookstore lately, have you?
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:29   #562
Sam Spade
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Well the US Supreme Court Chief Justice ruled as a Federal court judge that that Lincoln violated the US Constitution when he suspended habeas corpus in 'Ex parte Merryman'

The Commander in Chief takes a sworn oath to "Preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
And the basis of Taney's ruling was that the power to suspend Habeus Corpus resided with Congress not Lincoln.

Congress rendered taney's ruling moot when it ratified Lincolns actions passing legislation Authorizing it. Which Congress had the power to do.

BS Lincoln was on solid Ground with precedent from Thomas Jefferson Himself,

"Strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the Highest. Laws of necessity, of self preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. For to lose our country by scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus the absurdity of sacrificing the end to the means".
For those who don't know the chronology of things, let me add. The Constitution allows that "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

Following Southern secession, riots broke out in MD in March/April 1861. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus in response. The Circuit Court didn't argue that hc could not be suspended, only that Congress had to do it; Lincoln had overstepped the Executive's powers. Lincoln ignored the written order of the Court, acting tyrannically. That's the version you'll get from Natty, and it's a lie of omission.

The part left out is that Congress wasn't in session: there was no one to act as Tanney wanted. Rather than answer the more important question of what to do when the mechanism is broken, the slave-owner from MD demanded that form be honored over function, setting up the North's capital to be surrounded by rebels and rioters in his home state.

Congress returned in July, and Democrats filibustered action on Habeus Corpus. They eventually got smacked, and congression authorization followed. Meanwhile with order in MD, Lincoln ordered the release of those being held.

A different color when the totality of the circumstances come out, no? Natty knows this of course, and has consistently refused to tell the whole truth for years. Lucky his testimony is not actually in court.
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Last edited by Sam Spade; 03-22-2012 at 07:52..
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:47   #563
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Add also that the Suspension that Taney Ruled on was very narrowly applied. It was only applied between Maryland and Philadelphia. Specifically it was applied along the railroad tracks where Southern partisans had been tearing up track, burning railroad bridges and cutting telegraph wires.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:53   #564
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Of course Congress agreed with Lincoln's actions. By this time the Lincoln administration had arrested Maryland Congressman Henry May and threw him in jail.

The other Congressman saw this and realized that this Tyrant Lincoln can very well have them arrested and thrown in military prison if they did not agree with him.

Lincoln ruled Congress through Coercion, and it worked.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:06   #565
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Just after the Civil War was over, and Lincoln was dead, the US Supreme Court ruled that Lincoln had violated the Constitution again in Ex parte Milligan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_parte_milligan
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:09   #566
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Add also that the Suspension that Taney Ruled on was very narrowly applied. It was only applied between Maryland and Philadelphia. Specifically it was applied along the railroad tracks where Southern partisans had been tearing up track, burning railroad bridges and cutting telegraph wires.
Then we can look at Merryman himself and his case. He was a LT in the MD militia. With his state (and therefore his militia) still loyal to the Union, he took it upon himself to recruit< and possibly train, troops for the Confederacy. As the riots started in MD, LT Merryman cut telegraph lines and destroyed bridges. His arrest wasn't political, it was one of military need.

Taney never heard arguments nor did he give the government an opportunity to respond. He simply issued a writ on behalf of someone who was sabotoging the Union war effort. This, and some other choices of his, call into question Taney's loyalties and agenda.

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In Merryman, Taney wrote that when the courts are open for business, as they were in Maryland, the writ need not be suspended because federal prosecutions are available. Yet when the United States did later indict Merryman and sixty similar figures for treason in federal court, Taney used his position as superintending justice for the relevant circuit to indefinitely postpone the proceedings, while Merryman was free on bail. Taney, in other words, not only gave a one-sided and politically motivated ruling of law, but also used his judicial powers to protect internal enemies from legal proceedings that Taney himself had purported to endorse as a valid alternative to Lincoln’s order.
http://www.tnr.com/book/review/lawfare-the-bench drawing from The Body of John Merryman: Abraham Lincoln and the Suspension of Habeas Corpus
by Brian McGinty

Perhaps Lincoln was even more restrained than we give him credit for.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:11   #567
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The Lincoln administration arrested former Ohio Congressman Clement Vallandigham for "uttering disloyal sentiments".

He was sentenced to military prison.

Then Lincoln wrote to several Ohio Congressmen, offering to release Vallandigham if they would agree to support certain policies of the Administration.

Is this coercion or blackmail?

Last edited by Natty; 03-22-2012 at 09:18..
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:25   #568
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Originally Posted by Andy123 View Post
Could it have something to do with the fact that the last time people marched under that battle flag, they did so with the belief and intent that they had a right own human beings, the right to rape their property, the right to take their properties' offspring and sell it?
They had a lot of beliefs. Number 1 was that the States had the right under the Constitution to govern themselves, which is what I equate the Confederate flag to.

If you go back and study history, you will find that Lincoln declared the slaves free to prevent England from joining the Confederacy side of the war. While slavery was a component of the war, it was by no means the one and only cause of that war. The individual rights of the States self government was.

I think Black, Whites, Muslims, Hispanics, etc. should take up the flag today in protest of individuals slowly becoming slaves to the current Federal government.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:28   #569
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Just after the Civil War was over, and Lincoln was dead, the US Supreme Court ruled that Lincoln had violated the Constitution again in Ex parte Milligan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_parte_milligan
Ex parte milligan had to do with Military trials of Civilians. The court ruled that as long as the civil courts were in operation this could not be done.

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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
The Lincoln administration arrested former Ohio Congressman Clement Vallandigham for "uttering disloyal sentiments".

He was sentenced to military prison.

Then Lincoln wrote to several Ohio Congressmen, offering to release Vallandigham if they would agree to support certain policies of the Administration.

Is this coercion or blackmail?
No, the Lincoln administration had noting to do with Vallandigham's arrest. The first thing that Lincoln knew about it was when he read of it in the paper. The arrest was made by the Union General in charge of the area not by the Lincoln administration.

Lincoln commuted Vallandigham's sentence to banishment. Vallandigham was escorted to Confederate lines and released. Vallandigham then made his way to Canada where it is well documented he plotted with Confederate agents. Vallandigham was also connected with the "Sons of Liberty" a violent pro confederate group dedicated to violent uprising against the union from within.

If Vallandigham had been in the South acting the way he did in the North, (against the south in this case) he would have been executed.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-22-2012 at 09:33..
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:35   #570
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"President Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus without consulting Congress. In doing so, Lincoln enabled the military to arrest and imprison thousands of civilians, including Clement L. Vallandigham."

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-respo...f-liberty.html
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:39   #571
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Lincoln ordered hundreds of Northern newspapers who dared to speak out against him to be shut down. And some of their owners and editors were arrested for disloyalty. In some cases Union soldiers destroyed the printing presses.

This is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution that Lincoln swore to uphold.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:46   #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
"President Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus without consulting Congress. In doing so, Lincoln enabled the military to arrest and imprison thousands of civilians, including Clement L. Vallandigham."

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-respo...f-liberty.html
I find myself growing more intolerant of your lies by omission. First, Congress was not in session when Lincoln suspended habeus. Second, the suspension was in the MD region, and irrelevant to "thousands of civilians, including Clement". Finally, the suspension that played into the later arrests was in fact authorized by Congress.

All these things have been pointed out to you repeatedly, most recently on this very page of this very thread. And you claim to instruct others on ethics and morality? Shame.
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Last edited by Sam Spade; 03-22-2012 at 09:47..
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:46   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
"President Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus without consulting Congress. In doing so, Lincoln enabled the military to arrest and imprison thousands of civilians, including Clement L. Vallandigham."

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-respo...f-liberty.html
Congress was not in session to consult. Lincoln was not obliged to do nothing until Congress convened. The SCOTUS itself made this clear in the Prize cases.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:23   #574
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
I find myself growing more intolerant of your lies by omission. First, Congress was not in session when Lincoln suspended habeus. Second, the suspension was in the MD region, and irrelevant to "thousands of civilians, including Clement". Finally, the suspension that played into the later arrests was in fact authorized by Congress.

All these things have been pointed out to you repeatedly, most recently on this very page of this very thread. And you claim to instruct others on ethics and morality? Shame.
Sorry Spade, that is a direct quote (notice the quotation marks) from the website I provided.

Your issue is with the Constitutional Rights Foundation.

But any fan of Lincoln is not a fan of the US Constitution.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:30   #575
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Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Supreme Court Justices Southern slave owners?
At the time of secession 7 of the 9 Supreme court Justices were southerners. 4 were current slave holders. Taney had freed his slaves but remained pro slavery and pro southern. and once war broke out, pro Confederate.

Upon his death Natty's Idol of a supreme court Justice was found to have spent his time at home writing rulings, NOT ruling for cases before his Court. But rulings for things Taney thought MIGHT come before his court.

How would you like to have a judge like that? one that did not hear your arguments, weigh them and then decide. rather one that had his mind made up before you ever got to court and had already written his ruling.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-22-2012 at 11:06.. Reason: typos
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:43   #576
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Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Supreme Court Justices Southern slave owners?
12 of the first 18 US Presidents were also slave owners.

At least two of them were from Union/Northern states.

Last edited by Natty; 03-22-2012 at 10:45..
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:57   #577
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Who were the 2 from the north? What states were they from? What years did they serve? When did they stop owning slaves?
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:01   #578
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The question was asked about Lincoln being a War Criminal...

April 25 1861, When it looks as though Maryland may secede from the Union, Lincoln sends a letter to General Winfield Scott, Commanding General of the United States Army, giving him permission to bombard Maryland's Cities.

Lincoln wasted no time proving that he was willing to kill innocent civilians.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:07   #579
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Who were the 2 from the north? What states were they from? What years did they serve? When did they stop owning slaves?
Martin Van Buren from New York was a slave owner.

Ulysses S. Grant from Ohio was also a slave owner.

Yes the General-in-Chief of the Union Army, who fought to "free the slaves", was in fact a slave owner.

Look it up for answers to your other questions.

Last edited by Natty; 03-22-2012 at 11:13..
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:11   #580
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Sorry Spade, that is a direct quote (notice the quotation marks) from the website I provided.

Your issue is with the Constitutional Rights Foundation.

But any fan of Lincoln is not a fan of the US Constitution.
No, it's with you. You presented it as fact in support of an argument that you yourself have made. If you're using corrupt sources, you don't escape responsibility for spreading the tale.
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