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Old 03-18-2012, 21:57   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
So what did the North do for the slaves after they freed them, except for passing anti-black immigration laws to keep them out of their states?
What was the North supposed to do with them? they were not the ones that had enslaved them.

Never the less the U.S. Congress did create the Freedmen's Bureau.

Once again we see your consistent fall back position.........."what about the other guy????"
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Old 03-18-2012, 22:11   #477
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Complicity: How the North Promoted, Prolonged, and Profited from Slavery



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Old 03-18-2012, 22:16   #478
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
What was the North supposed to do with them? they were not the ones that had enslaved them.
The North had slavery for over 200 years.

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Old 03-18-2012, 22:30   #479
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
The North had slavery for over 200 years.

So what? did the North secede and attack the south in order to keep slavery during that 200 years?
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Old 03-18-2012, 22:39   #480
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Isn't it funny how the secessionists at the time of secession commented a great deal on the Norths hostility towards the institution of slavery never once whined and cried that the North had slavery once too!

It's the modern day Neo confederates that screech and wail about it. But then Neo Confederates are always making arguments the original confederates never made.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:42   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
The North had slavery for over 200 years.

And most of the north's states states had corrected their mistake or were seriously working on it before the south initiated hostilities.

PS: The Americans in the north had been working on correcting the slavery thing almost as soon as they achieved independence from Great Britain in 1782 or there abouts. So these Americans were throwing off some of the crap for their new country that the mother country had lived with for hundreds of years.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:32   #482
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Wiki answers seriously? is this what you consider studying the civil war? you might note that your "wiki answers " does not provide a single source of documentation to back up it's assertions.
Having to respond to useless drivel like that is exactly why I hate getting involved with this on the internet. I gave you one reference as and example and instead of admitting the truth in it you complain that it does give time, dates and the names of Black man that fought.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
It does not that Black Soldiers were not authorized until a month before Lee's surrender which is true. It also means they were no black soldiers that saw combat.
And again why I hat discussing this is that people deliberately ignoring the parts they don’t like.

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Many of these men saw combat and participated in it. Some died.
I ask you why the blacks fought and you give the drivel you post below.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Were exactly did all these supposed Black confederate soldiers go? did they vanish into thin air? Both confederates and union records documented who was serving and in what capacity. there is not a single record of any black reordered in the records serving in any capacity other than cook, laborer, body servant, etc.
or more likely they point out the lack of source documentation for the claims and the lack thereof in the historical record.
So you can’t find one source theat proves there were “armed” Black Confederates?

Quote:
1. Diary – Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission

Dr. Steiner observed Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862 and wrote:

"Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army.
Yah, I can see why you would dismiss the above since it's written by a Union inspector. We all know how them Dam Yankees lie.

I’m done. I’ve wasted way too much time much time on useless drivel.

PS. If you’re ever down New Orleans way look me up. We’ll "discuss" it over drinks.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:34   #483
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Having to respond to useless drivel like that is exactly why I hate getting involved with this on the internet. I gave you one reference as and example and instead of admitting the truth in it you complain that it does give time, dates and the names of Black man that fought.
Presenting the post of some anonymous poster on Wiki answers as "Proof" of anything is the very definition of Drivel.

And no I didn't ask for names dates and times. I asked for some OFFICIAL record Union or Confederate that showed Black confederate soldiers. And pointed out that in fact no such records exist.

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And again why I hat discussing this is that people deliberately ignoring the parts they don’t like.
You are a perfect example of the old saying that when you point a finger three more are pointing back at you. The difference is I don't like the posts of some anonymous poster lacking any cites for sources for their claims while you don't like the actual historical record.

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Yah, I can see why you would dismiss the above since it's written by a Union inspector. We all know how them Dam Yankees lie.
ahh the "One" source that Neo Confedrates cling to as their "Proof". The problem is no legitimate historian gives any credence to Steirners claims, He was a Rbid abolitionist and proponent of allowing blacks to serve in the Union army.

No other observer present (And their were plenty), including European observers, and Reporters mention any black Confederate soldiers.

Most historians view Steiners claims as an attempt to get the Administration and Congress to authorize Black recruitment into the union army.

The idea that Jackson who exhibited slavish devotion to orders would defy the prohibition on blacks serving as soldiers is more than Most legitimate Historians are willing to believe.

Quote:
John Beauchamp Jones, a high-level assistant to the secretary of war, scoffed at rumors that the Confederacy had units made up of slaves. "This is utterly untrue," he wrote in his diary. "We have no armed slaves to fight for us." Asked to double-check, Confederate Secretary of War James Seddon confirmed that "No slaves have been employed by the Government except as cooks or nurses in hospitals and for labor."


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Old 03-19-2012, 15:10   #484
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Yankee sympathizers feel that they have to defend the illegal invasion of the South.

They had 300,000 soldiers dead. And their beloved Tyrant President was dead.

First they said the war was about keeping the Union together. But the Union's Constitution had nothing in it that said secession was illegal. It was the invasion of the South that was illegal. So they disregard their own Constitution.

After the Union lost a hundred thousand or so soldiers fighting against the Freedom and Independence of the South, they changed what they were fighting and dying for to freeing the slaves.

But they still had slavery in the Union states...
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Old 03-19-2012, 15:48   #485
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But the Union's Constitution had nothing in it that said secession was illegal.
And yet the SCOTUS and James Madison Who actually wrote the Constitution agreed that secession was not legal.

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After the Union lost a hundred thousand or so soldiers fighting against the Freedom and Independence of the South
And an equal number of Confederate dead fighting against the freedom and independence of 4 million southerners.

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But they still had slavery in the Union states...
Yeah, that pesky Constitutional process for the 13th amendment that required ratification.
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Old 03-19-2012, 16:03   #486
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The Union is important, just look at the history of multinational Europe over the past 500 years. It is not unusual for priorities to change during a drawn out crises such as a civil war. The Federal government had already ruled in the 1830s that unilateral sucession from the union by the states was not an option and the leaders of the confederacy knew this. Why else would there have been extensive military preparations by the south before the dastardly and unprovoked attack on Ft Sumter?

Since the American Constitution allows for the suspension of habeas corpus during really bad times, what are the other tyrannical things that Lincoln did? Remember the role of Commander in Chief permits other actions in a theater of war.

Alternatively, do we give credit to the confederacy for freeing the slaves in the union states? --Was that their real agenda? --After all, the south initiated hostilities which caused a change of heart by the Unionists who after decisively winning the war freed all slaves.

I'm sure that Hollywood could take a fantastic story like this and make a great 2 hour movie but would probably add the confederate's strategic thinking was influenced by a secret cabal of Free Masons, Jesuits, Hollywood Actors, and Zionists in Vienna.

Have a nice day.
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Old 03-19-2012, 16:35   #487
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Yankee sympathizers feel that they have to defend the illegal invasion of the South.

They had 300,000 soldiers dead. And their beloved Tyrant President was dead.

First they said the war was about keeping the Union together. But the Union's Constitution had nothing in it that said secession was illegal. It was the invasion of the South that was illegal. So they disregard their own Constitution.

After the Union lost a hundred thousand or so soldiers fighting against the Freedom and Independence of the South, they changed what they were fighting and dying for to freeing the slaves.

But they still had slavery in the Union states...
You'll save yourself typing if you just number your posts. I mean, you haven't come up with anything new (or documented) in the last couple of years, and every point in this last post has already been made and disposed of.
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Old 03-19-2012, 17:16   #488
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post


Most historians view Steiners claims as an attempt to get the Administration and Congress to authorize Black recruitment into the union army.

The idea that Jackson who exhibited slavish devotion to orders would defy the prohibition on blacks serving as soldiers is more than Most legitimate Historians are willing to believe.


Oh what the hell! Let me waste a few more minutes.

Most historians? I’ll agree with you that those that want the war to be ALL ABOUT SLAVERY and nothing else do everything in their power to discredit ANYTHING or ANYONE that disproves there tripe.

The “OFFICAL” list of Black Confederates lists them as cooks, musicians and etc. I find it very, “VERY” strange that not one, I’ll repeat, NOT ONE Black is listed as “solder” yet many on the “OFFICIAL” list are listed as “PRIVATE”. They weren’t solders, they were only cooks and musicians yet they were given “rank”. The fact that not one Black is listed as a solder doesn’t throw up a red flag to the “HISTORIANS”. I’d like to think that you can’t honestly expect anyone to believe that not ONE Black actually fought and killed Union Shoulders but the fact is you actually do. If for no other reason than that I’d find it reason enough to call BS.

“At the start of the war, a Louisiana Confederate militia unit composed of free blacks was raised, but never accepted into Confederate service. On March 13, 1865 the Confederate Congress enacted a statute to allow the enlistment of African Americans but fewer than fifty were ever recruited.”

So there were “NO” Black Confederated Solders. Oh wait! There were but they didn’t let them fight. Oh wait! Later they recruited 50. But then evidently they didn’t let them fight and they didn't make it onto the “OFFICIAL” list. The “(?)HISTORIANS” are so full of it, it stinks to high heaven. They make it up as they go. But hey the war was just about slavery and nothing else.

Let me see! Most historians are college professors. Most college professors are liberals. Most liberal historians say the Civil War was all about slavery. Me thinks me sees a pattern here.
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Old 03-19-2012, 17:28   #489
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Having grown up in Virginia, and literally raised on the myths of The Lost Cause and the Old South, I too found it important to defend them. As time went on and I researched and learned more of the history of the Antebellum South and the Civil War I learned that those myths are just that, myths. The latest myth propagated by Neo-Confederates, which became popular in the 1990's(I find it interesting that if it were true it was literally unknown before then) is that, depending to who you wish to pay attention too, any where from 20,000 to 50,000 blacks fought for the Confederacy. There are very few documented examples of such, the most reliable being that 2-3 free black men rode with Quantrill, the rest are no doubt slaves who either carried their master's gear and weapons, or in rare cases fought at their owner's bidding, the best example for this being a black sniper at The Peninsula. The overwhelming majority of black men in the armies of the South were teamsters, laborers, cooks and servants.

Perhaps one of the best instances of how white southerner's felt about blacks fighting for the Confederacy is the Lousiana Native Guard. When they formed the Confederacy refused to arm and cloth them and when they armed themselves and provided their own uniforms, Louisiana made it against the law for free black men, and slaves, to fight. When Benjamin Butler took control of New Orleans, the Native Guard had no problem at all switching sides and did indeed fight, not for the Confederacy, but for the Union.

I have often heard Neo-Confederates argue that the Confederacy had black enlisted men, and yet they fall silent when General Patrick Cleburne is named. He ruined his career when he suggested enlisting blacks to make up for losses incurred by the Confederacy. He was damn near court-martialed, and the only thing that prevented that from happening was his battlefield record. I am paraphrasing, as I do not have the exact quote in front of me, Jefferson Davis, who commented when hearing of Cleburne's idea, "if we arm slaves, the whole idea for fighting this war will be shown to be wrong".

Neo-Confederates hide behind several mantra's. They disdain the names Civil War and The War of the Rebellion, though that is what such luminaires as Lee, Davis. Stephen' and Forrest called it. Bedford Forrest is quoted as saying, "If I didn't think we were fighting to keep our ******s, I wouldn't have gone to war". I seriously doubt there are many here who could successfully debate the subject with Forrest. Another mantra is that the South had a right to secede. As was shown in a previous post by Sam Spade(kudos to you, sir) this country was formed by the Articles of Confederation, and the articles fordid the dissolution of the Union. Perhaps my favorite mantra is that the South did indeed have a right to secede. Yet, when West Virginia seceded from Virginia to rejoin the Union, it was considered an act of treason by the South. The best example of that being the quote from The Richmond Examiner, "it is against all the laws of God and man".

Another thing Neo-Confederates seem to forget is that the South was not unified in it's wish to secede and form another country. 10's of thousands of Southern men fought for the Union. Whole areas of the deep South remained loyal to the Union, The Kingdom of Jones being the most famous example.

Myths can be entertaining, as long as they are looked at for what they are. Fiction.
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Old 03-19-2012, 17:44   #490
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Most historians? I’ll agree with you that those that want the war to be ALL ABOUT SLAVERY and nothing else do everything in their power to discredit ANYTHING or ANYONE that disproves there tripe.
I think You are projecting Just because historians disregard one person diary entry does not mean they are doing so because they want the civil war to be about slavery. It's the simple fact that ONE diary entry goes against the preponderance of the evidence.

1. No one else present or anywhere else ever reported seeing black confederate combat troops.

2. It was illegal under confederate law to arm blacks or have them as combat soldiers. Plenty though were impressed to be wagon drivers, cooks, laborers, etc.

3. when the Confederacy finally (Just before the war needed) Did authorize enlisting blacks as Combat soldiers it ignited a firestorm of protest not only from politicians, but citizens and even among confederate soldiers themselves. This would hardly be likely if 50-100K had already been serving as combat troops as far back as 1862.

To you and other who conform to Neo Confederate ideology the presence of some black combat troops would "Prove" the war was not about slavery. But that is not how Historians would view it.

As far as what the war was about, we don't have to guess it the Confederates left a massive record of their statements concerning what the war was over. interesting though that modern Neo Confederates choose not to believe them.


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The “OFFICAL” list of Black Confederates lists them as cooks, musicians and etc. I find it very, “VERY” strange that not one, I’ll repeat, NOT ONE Black is listed as “solder” yet many on the “OFFICIAL” list are listed as “PRIVATE”. They weren’t solders, they were only cooks and musicians yet they were given “rank”.
Do you find it equally strange that the military today has privates (and above) serving in the same capacities and they are NOT listed as combat soldiers?

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So there were “NO” Black Confederated Solders. Oh wait! There were but they didn’t let them fight.
Militia were state militia not confederate troops.

I don't know about fifty I thought I recalled that once the Confederate Congress authorized recruitment and enlistment of blacks there were perhaps a dozen such companies raised. though none of them ever saw combat.

The recruitment process was greatly hindered by the fact that BOTH the slave AND the slaves owner had to agree to the enlistment.

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Let me see! Most historians are college professors. Most college professors are liberals. Most liberal historians say the Civil War was all about slavery. Me thinks me sees a pattern here.
Let me see, virtually all the secessionists before and during the war insisted they were seceding to protect the institution of Slavery. We have their speeches, letters, debates, articles of secession, speeches and letters of their secession commissioners that all say the same thing. But modern day Neo Confederates deny this. I think I see a pattern here.
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Old 03-19-2012, 18:38   #491
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Simple question to answer...show us their names on casualty lists. Either they were uncommonly brave (and never surrendered) as well as uncommonly lucky (never died of wounds) or they were never in the lines. I seem to remember a very detailed roster of the Army that Lee surrendered at Appomatox, but can't recall the Negro component. I suppose those uncommonly brave, lucky men could have deserted just prior to Appomatox, but that would seem a bit incongruous. As always, I'm willing to be proven wrong.
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Old 03-19-2012, 18:47   #492
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http://voices.washingtonpost.com/loc..._confeder.html

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After months of heated debate, a severely watered-down version of this proposal became Confederate law in March of 1865. Gen. Richard S. Ewell assumed responsibility for implementing it, and Confederate officials and journalists confidently predicted the enlistment of thousands. But the actual results proved bitterly disappointing. A dwarf company or two of black hospital workers was attached to a unit of a local Richmond home guard just a few weeks before the war's end. The regular Confederate army apparently managed to recruit another 40 to 60 men -- men whom it drilled, fed, and housed at military prison facilities under the watchful eyes of military police and wardens -- reflecting how little confidence the government and army had in the loyalty of their last-minute recruits.

This strikingly unsuccessful last-ditch effort, furthermore, constituted the sole exception to the Confederacy's steadfast refusal to employ African American soldiers. As Gen. Ewell's longtime aide-de-camp, Maj. George Campbell Brown, later affirmed, the handful of black soldiers mustered in Richmond in 1865 were "the first and only black troops used on our side."
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Old 03-19-2012, 19:32   #493
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"After months of heated debate..."

What's there to debate in 1865, if tens of thousands of blacks have been serving in combat since 1862?

Then there was the South's reaction to the Union's enlistment of blacks---they were not to be treated as soldiers if captured, but enslaved (although a good number were just murdered outright). Why would that be the official policy of the South if all these thousands of negros were enlisted in CSA line regiments? The northern blacks would be just like their guys in a different color suit. But somehow, the CSA saw these blacks as more sinister than any other Union soldier. Pretty irrational distinction, and except for fleeing in a gown, Davis wasn't that irrational.

Nope. Doesn't work with the rolls, doesn't work with eye witness statements and doesn't work with logic.
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Old 03-19-2012, 19:44   #494
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I don’t have the time to waste that you do so I’ll just answer these two points.

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IAs far as what the war was about, we don't have to guess it the Confederates left a massive record of their statements concerning what the war was over. interesting though that modern Neo Confederates choose not to believe them.
Yes they did leave massive records. And in almost all taxes, tariffs and commerce concerns are addressed along with the slave issue. However far too many want the war to be strictly a race issue, so not only do they want people to ignore the other factors leading up to the brink of war, they actually deny that there were other factors. That is exactly what you have done repeatedly when addressing my posts. You continue saying the war was about slavery when that was only one contributing factor. Had in fact that been the only factor there wouldn’t have been a war.


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Do you find it equally strange that the military today has privates (and above) serving in the same capacities and they are NOT listed as combat soldiers?
No! What I find strange is that you and other, when it suites your purpose, say there were no Black Confederate soldiers. When that doesn’t work it’s they were only cooks and musicians etc. When presented with letters written by a Union examiner stating that Black armed Confederate soldiers were captured he’s painted to be a lire and scoundrel. Every piece of evidence that proves there were Black Confederates that fought the naysayers do everything in their power to discredit either the information or the person supplying the information.

I went to friends home when I was 10 or 11. There was a picture of Black man in a Confederate uniform on small table with some knickknacks. He was holding a rifle with a bayoneted on it and he was missing an arm. I asked who it was. He said it was his grandfather. His mother said that was my father. He “fought” with the “Rabs”. I asked what happened to his arm. She said he had gotten shot by a Yankee and they had to cut his arm off. Her words not mine. So I guess she was lying and a Yankee must have come into a Confederate camp and shot a cook or a fiddle player, then they dressed him in a uniform and gave him a gun so he could look good in the picture. But then I’m probably lying too because there’s no historical fact to back it up.

My goodness what is this? Pictures of Black Confederated solders with uniform and guns? Must be counterfeit.

The Furball Forum

The Furball Forum

And I’m sure these guys are all lying too. You know the Black man that says hid father fought is lying right?


"7 minute Documentary featuring Nelson W. Winbush, a black son of confederate black soldier Luis Napoleon Nelson who fought under Nathan Bedford Forest, founder of the KKK."
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Old 03-19-2012, 19:46   #495
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Add to that many confederate Generals responses. Like Howell Cobb, "You cannot make soldiers out of slaves, If slaves make good soldiers our whole theory of Govt. is wrong."

Plus not even one, not even Robert E. Lee when they endorsed finally adding blacks as soldiers pointed to any already existing Black soldiers as proof it would work.

The fact there was so much controversy over the subject speaks volumes. A controversy that would not have existed if Blacks had already been serving as soldiers.
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Old 03-19-2012, 19:56   #496
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Add to that many confederate Generals responses. Like Howell Cobb, "You cannot make soldiers out of slaves, If slaves make good soldiers our whole theory of Govt. is wrong."

Plus not even one, not even Robert E. Lee when they endorsed finally adding blacks as soldiers pointed to any already existing Black soldiers as proof it would work.

The fact there was so much controversy over the subject speaks volumes. A controversy that would not have existed if Blacks had already been serving as soldiers.


Right! All those pictures and all those poeple are lying. Even the Black woman I spoke to as a child and the Black man in the video. All liars one an all.
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Old 03-19-2012, 20:08   #497
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My goodness what is this? Pictures of Black Confederated solders with uniform and guns? Must be counterfeit.

The Furball Forum
Ummm, hate to break it to you, but the guys in blue suits with the nifty bugles on the kepi aren't exactly helping your case.
Another view of the troops:
The Furball Forum
They're the Louisiana Native Guard. They fought for the Union.
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Old 03-19-2012, 20:12   #498
Dragoon44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
Right! All those pictures and all those poeple are lying. Even the Black woman I spoke to as a child and the Black man in the video. All liars one an all.
never mind you will believe what you want to believe regardless of any real DOCUMENTED facts.
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Old 03-19-2012, 20:31   #499
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The other posed picture is of Confederate LT.Andrew Chandler, 44th Mississippi, And Silas Chandler, his "Companion" and former slave. "Companion" as in Body servant.
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Old 03-19-2012, 20:34   #500
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A common problem. Here's the cover of a book. It's self-explanatory.

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Here's the photo before cropping:

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And another Confederate legend has photographic proof. Oops, wait one.
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