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Old 03-08-2012, 18:47   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
A striking example of Lincoln's respect for the Constitution.
That's funny right there Sam
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Old 03-08-2012, 18:52   #362
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
More accurately the emancipation only freed the slaves of the confederates. it was a war measure not an amendment.

If the North didn't want to free them how did the 13th amendment get passed?
New Jersey rejected ratification of the 13th Amendment at first.

They only had a handful of slaves left after the war was over but they sure wanted to hold onto them. They even changed their name from slaves to apprentices for life to make them feel better.

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Old 03-08-2012, 18:57   #363
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
That's funny right there Sam
Wasn't meant to be, though I can see how those who worship at the altar of the lost cause would be pulled up short.

Lincoln knew that the Constitution prohibited taking private property, and acknowledged that (as abhorrent as it was) slaves were private property.

However, the customs of war absolutely allowed the taking of contraband, things which furthered the enemy's war effort, and slaves did just that. So, he addressed the item in his role as Commander in Chief of the forces which were putting down a rebellion. That's obvious; notice that he didn't free slaves held in areas that hadn't rebelled. He didn't free slaves held in places like New Orleans, or in the VA counties that were under Union control--they couldn't be said to be advancing the CSA's war effort. And, he gave the states attempting to depart an opportunity to rejoin the Union and keep their slaves.

All done very properly.
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Old 03-08-2012, 19:26   #364
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
New Jersey rejected ratification of the 13th Amendment at first.

They only had a handful of slaves left after the war was over but they sure wanted to hold onto them. They even changed their name from slaves to apprentices for life to make them feel better.

Those 16-18 ones left probably had it better than millions of ex slaves in the former confederate states that passed laws requiring former slaves could only work with written contracts if the job was for longer than one month and could not quit their jobs. if they left they not only forfeited their entire years wages they were subject to arrest and imprisonment.

Kinda sounds like slavery doesn't it?
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-08-2012 at 19:29..
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:45   #365
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The Furball Forum

Soldiers carrying this flag committed the most, and the worst, Terrorist attacks ever against Americans in the history of the our country.

But lets not talk about the real history of this flag...
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:18   #366
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The Furball Forum

Soldiers carrying this flag committed the most, and the worst, Terrorist attacks ever against Americans in the history of the our country.

But lets not talk about the real history of this flag...
is this part of the "Sherman was the debil" MYTH?

The unsubstantiated claims that he raped and murdered his way across the south.
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Old 03-09-2012, 14:05   #367
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
is this part of the "Sherman was the debil" MYTH?

The unsubstantiated claims that he raped and murdered his way across the south.
The Furball Forum

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Old 03-09-2012, 14:53   #368
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
One of the staples of the Neo Confederate argument. But which is relatively meaningless since the 13th amendment which abolished slavery was passed by the Senate in April 1864 and by the house in January 1865. DURING the War. Of course it had to undergo the process of ratification. But the fact remains the steps to abolish slavery began during the war.
Which still doesn't give much support to this "let's make the confederate flag a racist symbol" movement of the last 20 years or less. That's my point, both sides were racist and slave-owning and, as the supporters of the north - you for example - like to point out, the north didn't actually start a war to end slavery until the south seceded and fired the first shots.

That's my whole point - neither side can claim to be anti-racist or to have considered blacks deserving of equality. The few with attitudes like that couldn't feel a good-sized "occupy" camp.

That's wjhy I ask: "how did this, very recent, 'rebel flag is racist' BS start?"


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Old 03-09-2012, 15:24   #369
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That's wjhy I ask: "how did this, very recent, 'rebel flag is racist' BS start?"
Accepting for the sake of discussion your assertion that this is something new, the answer is obvious: with recent racists who selected a symbol. You'll notice similar antics in history---the Navajo basketball team can no longer use a swastika on their uniforms, and I, for one, wouldn't be caught dead flying a Gadsden flag today.

And if we don't accept your "recent" label, it's still the symbol of those who fought to destroy the Union with the express goal of retaining the privilege of buying, selling and working to death other humans. Which, of course, explains the motives of recent racists in their selection.

So regardless of the storied history you want to bring up, it is what it is.
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Old 03-09-2012, 16:56   #370
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Accepting for the sake of discussion your assertion that this is something new, the answer is obvious: with recent racists who selected a symbol. You'll notice similar antics in history---the Navajo basketball team can no longer use a swastika on their uniforms, and I, for one, wouldn't be caught dead flying a Gadsden flag today.

And if we don't accept your "recent" label, it's still the symbol of those who fought to destroy the Union with the express goal of retaining the privilege of buying, selling and working to death other humans. Which, of course, explains the motives of recent racists in their selection.

So regardless of the storied history you want to bring up, it is what it is.
the truth.....
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Old 03-09-2012, 18:55   #371
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post

And if we don't accept your "recent" label, it's still the symbol of those who fought to destroy the Union with the express goal of retaining the privilege of buying, selling and working to death other humans. Which, of course, explains the motives of recent racists in their selection.
The Southern states never worked slaves to death, they were much too valuable.

As for buying and selling slaves, this happened in the North for up to 200 years in places like Boston, Philadelphia, New York and Rhode Island.

But the truth is not taught in Northern schools...

Last edited by Natty; 03-09-2012 at 19:17..
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:31   #372
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As for buying and selling slaves, this happened in the North for up to 200 years in places like Boston, Philadelphia, New York and Rhode Island.

But the truth is not taught in Northern schools...
You are fond of posting pics of the U.S. flag and claiming slavery existed under that flag for over 200 years.

Apparently Southern education is quite lacking since The US had not even been in existence for 200 years by the time of the 13th amendment.

taking the date of of the DOI 1776, how long did the state you mention have slavery?

Massachusetts- Banned slavery in 1783

Pennsylvania- adopted gradual emancipation in 1780

New York- banned slavery in 1799

Rhode Island- adopted gradual emancipation 1784

So three took action to end slavery within 4-8 years of 1776 the fourth within 23 years of 1776.

Of course if you count the time of the ratification of the constitution then three of them moved to end slavery between 9-5 years BEFORE the ratification of the Constitution with NY acting within 10 years of the ratification of the U.S. constitution.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-09-2012 at 20:32..
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:34   #373
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But the truth is not taught in Northern schools...
First, who ever said I went to a Northern school?

And regardless of where I was educated, I'd think you'd have discovered thatI've got a pretty firm grasp on the facts of history during our various discussions.
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Old 03-09-2012, 21:14   #374
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
First, who ever said I went to a Northern school?

And regardless of where I was educated, I'd think you'd have discovered thatI've got a pretty firm grasp on the facts of history during our various discussions.

but, but, but....you had to have gone to a Nothern school, because you're not on our side! (and you think slavery is wrong!)

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Old 03-10-2012, 10:35   #375
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
You are fond of posting pics of the U.S. flag and claiming slavery existed under that flag for over 200 years.

Apparently Southern education is quite lacking since The US had not even been in existence for 200 years by the time of the 13th amendment.

taking the date of of the DOI 1776, how long did the state you mention have slavery?

Massachusetts- Banned slavery in 1783

Pennsylvania- adopted gradual emancipation in 1780

New York- banned slavery in 1799

Rhode Island- adopted gradual emancipation 1784

So three took action to end slavery within 4-8 years of 1776 the fourth within 23 years of 1776.

Of course if you count the time of the ratification of the constitution then three of them moved to end slavery between 9-5 years BEFORE the ratification of the Constitution with NY acting within 10 years of the ratification of the U.S. constitution.
Pennsylvania had slavery from 1639 as a British colony until 1845 as a US state. 206 Years of slavery.

New York had slavery from 1626 as a British colony until 1827 as a US state. 201 years of slavery.

Rhode Island had slavery from 1652 as a British colony until 1842 as a US state. 190 years of slavery.
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:22   #376
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New Jersey had slavery from 1626 as a British colony until 1865 (after the Civil war over) as a US state. 239 years of slavery.

Connecticut had slavery from 1639 as a British colony until 1848 as a US state. 209 years of slavery.

New Hampshire had slavery from 1645 as a British colony until 1845 as a US state. 200 years of slavery.
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Old 03-10-2012, 12:25   #377
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Wow are you stretching now... sad.
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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 03-10-2012, 14:11   #378
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Pennsylvania had slavery from 1639 as a British colony until 1845 as a US state. 206 Years of slavery.
Pennsylvania did not exist in 1639, the Swedes founded a colony there in 1609 lost it to the Dutch in 1655. The English seized it in 1664. From 1664 until 1681 it was under the rule of the Duke of York who did not impost British laws and civil govt. until 1676.

Pennsyllvania was established in 1681.

Quote:
New York had slavery from 1626 as a British colony until 1827 as a US state. 201 years of slavery.
Another Dutch Colony seized by the British in 1664.

Quote:
Rhode Island had slavery from 1652 as a British colony until 1842 as a US state. 190 years of slavery.
Rhode Island was settled by dissidents from the Massachusetts bay colony and was not a formal British colony until granted a Royal Charter in 1663.

Quote:
New Jersey had slavery from 1626 as a British colony until 1865 (after the Civil war over) as a US state. 239 years of slavery.
Another swedish\dutch colony seized by the English in 1664.

Quote:
Connecticut had slavery from 1639 as a British colony until 1848 as a US state. 209 years of slavery.
One could probably make the case that the patent granted by the Earl of Warwick in 1831 began the date of this colony even though that colony was not established until 1636.

Quote:
New Hampshire had slavery from 1645 as a British colony until 1845 as a US state. 200 years of slavery.
Was actually a part of Massachusetts, until separated by King Charles II in 1679. and granted a royal charter.

Most of the above passed gradual emancipation statutes in the 1700"s. New Jersey Passed gradual emancipation in 1804

The states that formed the confederacy ( and the border slave states) had emancipation forced on them in 1865 by the 13th amendment.
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Old 03-10-2012, 14:34   #379
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Wow are you stretching now... sad.
its part of the Neo Confederate, "But they did it too" defense.

Another is "The evil yankees made us buy em".

Apparently the Yankees understood that southerners were weak willed and impulsive and if they brought a ship of slaves into a southern port the southerners could not help themselves they just had to buy them!
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Old 03-10-2012, 14:42   #380
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There was indeed slavery under the Confederate flag for FOUR years.

Lets focus on that and blame slavery on the South.

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