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Old 03-18-2012, 13:01   #451
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Many of these free blacks of the South owned slaves.
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:06   #452
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Thomas Jefferson himself predicted that slavery was the rock upon which the union would ultimately split.

Ever dispute between the North and south pretty much related to slavery.

The Missouri compromise, The gag rule in Congress, The 1850 fugitive slave act, Kansas Nebraska act, disposition of the Mexican territories strife, all over slavery.

Even the "nullification crises" was about slavery according to it's chief proponent John C Calhoun who said that The tariff was not the cause but rather the occasion, the cause was the south's "Peculiar institution". (Slavery)
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:07   #453
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Many of these free blacks of the South owned slaves.
So what?

and by free blacks of the south, you mean Black Southerners don't you?
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:10   #454
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Since some people here, out of desperation, continue to blame slavery on the South...

Lets be honest and truthful, and have some integrity here...

Ulysses S Grant, commanding General of all Union forces during the Civil War, was a slave owner.
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:17   #455
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Since some people here, out of desperation, continue to blame slavery on the South...

Lets be honest and truthful, and have some integrity here...

Abraham Lincoln, as a lawyer, went to court in the Matson Slave Case, and argued to have a runaway woman slave and her children returned to their slave owner...
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:24   #456
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Since some people here, out of desperation, continue to blame slavery on the South...
You have been called on this false accusation before, No one here has blamed slavery on the south. They have blamed the south for seceding over slavery. There is a difference. However much you would like to deny it.


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Lets be honest and truthful, and have some integrity here...
Oh the Irony,

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Ulysses S Grant, commanding General of all Union forces during the Civil War, was a slave owner.
A usual you fail to tell the whole story. The Slave which Grant Freed was given to his wife by her slave owning Father.
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:26   #457
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Since some people here, out of desperation, continue to blame slavery on the South...

Lets be honest and truthful, and have some integrity here...

Abraham Lincoln, as a lawyer, went to court in the Matson Slave Case, and argued to have a runaway woman slave and her children returned to their slave owner...
Did Lincoln represent his client adequately? did he argue the law?

Did Lincoln on behalf of his client threaten to secede if his slave was not returned to him?



Again your ridiculous attempt to make mountains out of molehills only reveals your own desperation.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-18-2012 at 13:34..
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:38   #458
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Since some people here, out of desperation, continue to blame slavery on the South...
I take it you are a fan of Joseph Goebbels, subscribing to his motto that "if you repeat a lie long enough it becomes the truth."
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:51   #459
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So while the North and the South were both racist it was the South that seceded and went to war to preserve and extend the institution of slavery.
And the truth remains that after all the Confederate held slaves were free, some Union states still had slavery.
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Old 03-18-2012, 13:57   #460
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
And the truth remains that after all the Confederate held slaves were free, some Union states still had slavery.
Actually the TRUTH is that until the passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865 (several months after Lee's surrender) The Institution of slavery still existed in the South and the North.
It's just the Confederate rebel states didn't have any.

Your whole argumentation is little more than smoke and mirrors and attempts at misdirection.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-18-2012 at 13:58..
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Old 03-18-2012, 14:41   #461
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It's just the Confederate rebel states didn't have any.

Your whole argumentation is little more than smoke and mirrors and attempts at misdirection.
Not quite true. (Well, "misdirection" is quite true.) The Emancipation Proclomation was never applied to New Orleans and the surrounding parishes, nor to the Northern VA counties up near DC. Those areas were specifically exempted, as they were under Union control before the EP was issued, the slaves there were not contributing to the Southern war effort and so could not be considered contraband of war.
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Old 03-18-2012, 14:50   #462
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Not quite true. (Well, "misdirection" is quite true.) The Emancipation Proclomation was never applied to New Orleans and the surrounding parishes, nor to the Northern VA counties up near DC. Those areas were specifically exempted, as they were under Union control before the EP was issued, the slaves there were not contributing to the Southern war effort and so could not be considered contraband of war.
I left out the border states, even though Kentucy and Missouri were claimed as confederate states by the confederacy the remained in the union and retained slavery until the 13th amendment was ratified.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-18-2012 at 15:10..
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Old 03-18-2012, 15:00   #463
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I left out the border states, even though Kentucy and Mosuri were claimed as confederate states by the confederacy the remained in the union and retained slavery until the 13th amendment was ratified.
I left them out, too. I think LA and VA are better examples of Lincoln's thinking and careful observance of the Constitution. His exceptions for rebel territory no longer part of the armed rebellion shows thought and lack of any punitive motive.
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Old 03-18-2012, 15:04   #464
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The actual coverage:

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.
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Old 03-18-2012, 15:11   #465
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I think LA and VA are better examples of Lincoln's thinking and careful observance of the Constitution.
You have a real mean streak in you. If that doesn't send the neo confederates blood pressure through the roof nothing will.

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Old 03-18-2012, 15:16   #466
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it's funny how so many of the Neo Confederate Crowd ( excluding natty) pop into threads like this proclaiming they know the truth and anyone that disagrees with them doesn't know the truth and is just stupid. But when challenged to produce their "truth" just disappear.
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Old 03-18-2012, 15:43   #467
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
it's funny how so many of the Neo Confederate Crowd ( excluding natty) pop into threads like this proclaiming they know the truth and anyone that disagrees with them doesn't know the truth and is just stupid. But when challenged to produce their "truth" just disappear.
I think Natty just likes the abuse....
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Old 03-18-2012, 16:10   #468
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I think Natty just likes the abuse....
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Old 03-18-2012, 17:10   #469
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I think Natty just likes the abuse....
Like I said, George Pickett reincarnated.
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Old 03-18-2012, 19:39   #470
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Sorry it took so long to get back but I have to work.

If slavery were the main reason for the war then why did so many Blacks fight and die for the slave cause. Or perhaps Ask.con are just Southern sympathizers and perpetuating lies.

Quote:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_ther...k_Confederates

there were Black Confederate soldiers. This is a fact, not fiction. Conservative estimates state that over 50,000 African-Confederates served in the Confederate Army. Many of these men saw combat and participated in it. Some died.

Although the Confederate Congress did not authorize Colored Units in the Confederate Army until 1865, when it was too late,there were many unofficial soldiers overlooked by officers who were desperate to fill the ranks so quickly dwindling. Also, many individual Southern states authorized colored militia units. For example, Alabama in 1862.
Or perhaps those that say it’s untrue are trying to further their agenda.

If the war was over slavery why did so many poor Whites that didn’t own slaves fight and die. Do you honestly believe they fight and die for a cause they had no stake in? Or can you admit that perhaps they were fighting for other reasons?

Excerpt from Alexander H. Stephens' Cornerstone Speech


Quote:
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...cumentprint=76
Cornerstone Speech

Alexander H. Stephens
March 21, 1861
Savannah, Georgia


Allow me briefly to allude to some of these improvements. The question of building up class interests, or fostering one branch of industry to the prejudice of another under the exercise of the revenue power, which gave us so much trouble under the old constitution, is put at rest forever under the new. We allow the imposition of no duty with a view of giving advantage to one class of persons, in any trade or business, over those of another. All, under our system, stand upon the same broad principles of perfect equality. Honest labor and enterprise are left free and unrestricted in whatever pursuit they may be engaged. This old thorn of the tariff, which was the cause of so much irritation in the old body politic, is removed forever from the new.


Again, the subject of internal improvements, under the power of Congress to regulate commerce, is put at rest under our system. The power, claimed by construction under the old constitution, was at least a doubtful one; it rested solely upon construction. We of the South, generally apart from considerations of constitutional principles, opposed its exercise upon grounds of its inexpediency and injustice. Notwithstanding this opposition, millions of money, from the common treasury had been drawn for such purposes. Our opposition sprang from no hostility to commerce, or to all necessary aids for facilitating it. With us it was simply a question upon whom the burden should fall. In Georgia, for instance, we have done as much for the cause of internal improvements as any other portion of the country, according to population and means. We have stretched out lines of railroads from the seaboard to the mountains; dug down the hills, and filled up the valleys at a cost of not less than $25,000,000. All this was done to open an outlet for our products of the interior, and those to the west of us, to reach the marts of the world. No State was in greater need of such facilities than Georgia, but we did not ask that these works should be made by appropriations out of the common treasury. The cost of the grading, the superstructure, and the equipment of our roads was borne by those who had entered into the enterprise. Nay, more not only the cost of the iron no small item in the aggregate cost was borne in the same way, but we were compelled to pay into the common treasury several millions of dollars for the privilege of importing the iron, after the price was paid for it abroad. What justice was there in taking this money, which our people paid into the common treasury on the importation of our iron, and applying it to the improvement of rivers and harbors elsewhere? The true principle is to subject the commerce of every locality, to whatever burdens may be necessary to facilitate it. If Charleston harbor needs improvement, let the commerce of Charleston bear the burden. If the mouth of the Savannah river has to be cleared out, let the sea-going navigation which is benefited by it, bear the burden. So with the mouths of the Alabama and Mississippi river. Just as the products of the interior, our cotton, wheat, corn, and other articles, have to bear the necessary rates of freight over our railroads to reach the seas. This is again the broad principle of perfect equality and justice, and it is especially set forth and established in our new constitution.
As you can see their were issues over tariffs and taxes and commerce. Does he speak of slaves further on in the speech? Absolutely! But as he states and as many of the other leaders of the revolt state in speeches and private letters, the war was about the Northern oppression upon the South. The slave issue was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. So did the slave issue start the war? Absolutely! Was the war over slavery? Absolutely not!
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Old 03-18-2012, 20:59   #471
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If slavery were the main reason for the war then why did so many Blacks fight and die for the slave cause. Or perhaps Ask.con are just Southern sympathizers and perpetuating lies.
Wiki answers seriously? is this what you consider studying the civil war? you might note that your "wiki answers " does not provide a single source of documentation to back up it's assertions.

It does not that Black Soldiers were not authorized until a month before Lee's surrender which is true. It also means they were no black soldiers that saw combat.

Were exactly did all these supposed Black confederate soldiers go? did they vanish into thin air? Both confederates and union records documented who was serving and in what capacity. there is not a single record of any black reordered in the records serving in any capacity other than cook, laborer, body servant, etc.

Quote:
Or perhaps those that say it’s untrue are trying to further their agenda.
or more likely they point out the lack of source documentation for the claims and the lack thereof in the historical record.

Quote:
If the war was over slavery why did so many poor Whites that didn’t own slaves fight and die. Do you honestly believe they fight and die for a cause for the rich? You had to be rich to own slaves they were very expensive, I’ve seen the records. Or can you admit that perhaps they were fighting for other reasons?
As long as slavery existed the poorest white was still part of a privileged class, WHITE, which meant they were above free blacks and slaves on the social ladder and they intended to keep it that way. The planter class had been telling them for years that emancipation of the slaves would lead to race war, their wives and daughters being raped by savage black men and that Blacks would then be not just their social and political equals but their superiors.

If you really want to read what they were being told at the time. you can download "The Interest in slavery of the Southern non slave holder" Written by James Debow owner and editor of Debows Review the most widely read periodical in the South. It was originally printed as Tract No.5, in 1860 and reprinted in newspapers and used widely in secessionists speeches. it is available free in Ebook format.

Quote:
Excerpt from Alexander H. Stephens' Cornerstone Speech
What does he say the "cornerstone" of the new govt. is? (Jefferson Davis in his Jan 5, 1863 speech also speaks of what the cornerstone is and is in agreement with with Stephens.

What does Stephens say was the cause of the war? it's right there in the speech.

Quote:
all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.
Quote:
Does he speak of slaves further on in the speech? Absolutely! But as he states and as many of the other leaders of the revolt state in speeches and private letters, the war was about the Northern oppression upon the South.
Stephens says nothing about northern oppression in that speech. He talks about differences the south had with the North and how the new confederate constitution such differences would not exist since the Confederate Constitution

Quote:
is put at rest forever under the new. We allow the imposition of no duty with a view of giving advantage to one class of persons, in any trade or business, over those of another. All, under our system, stand upon the same broad principles of perfect equality. Honest labor and enterprise are left free and unrestricted in whatever pursuit they may be engaged. This old thorn of the tariff, which was the cause of so much irritation in the old body politic, is removed forever from the new.
Read that carefully, They didn't like what was allowed under the OLD constitution so they made sure it was not permitted in the new one. That is a clear admission that what they did not like under the old constitution was allowed by that same constitution.

Last but not least, You might try reading Stephens speech in the Georgia secession debates in 1860 there Stephens declares emphatically that the Southern states had no legitimate grievance against the "general" (Federal Govt.).

Excerpts from his Speech,

ON TARIFFS

Quote:
Yes, and Massachusetts, with unanimity, voted with the South to lessen them, and they were made just as low as Southern men asked them to be, and those are the rates they are now at. If reason and argument, with experience, produced such changes in the sentiments of Massachusetts from 1832 to 1857, on the subject of the tariff, may not like changes be effected there by the same means, reason and argument, and appeals to patriotism on the present vexed question? And who can say that by 1875 or 1890, Massachusetts may not vote with South Carolina and Georgia upon all those questions that now distract the country and threaten its peace and existence? I believe in the power and efficiency of truth, in the omnipotence of truth, and its ultimate triumph when properly wielded. (Applause.)
You can read the speech here.

http://civilwarcauses.org/steph2.htm

Quote:
The slave issue was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. So did the slave issue start the war? Absolutely! Was the war over slavery? Absolutely not!
No the slave issue was not the straw that broke the camels back, like some last minute add on. it was THE foundational issue that affected everything else.

Even the nullification Crises, Which Calhoun himself said the tariff was NOT the cause of the crises, it was the OCCASION. The cause was the south's "Peculiar institution" (Slavery.)

Is this what you call your Proof" and your "Knowledge". Wiki answers and speculative assumptions couched in "well if this was so why?"

I am guessing that you have never even read a book on the Civil war written by a legitimate Historian. Or read any of what the Southern leaders actually had to say in the subject of secession before or during the war.
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Old 03-18-2012, 21:33   #472
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Slavery was so bad that a high percentage of slaves stayed on the same farm or plantation after they were freed.
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Old 03-18-2012, 21:38   #473
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Slavery was so bad that a high percentage of slaves stayed on the same farm or plantation after they were freed.
Wonder why that was?


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Old 03-18-2012, 21:43   #474
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So what did the North do for the slaves after they freed them, except for passing anti-black immigration laws to keep them out of their states?
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Old 03-18-2012, 21:53   #475
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Slavery was so bad that a high percentage of slaves stayed on the same farm or plantation after they were freed.
Gee wonde why that was, Maybe because the Former confederate States passed Black codes that required slaves....er Free blacks to have a contract for up to a year working for the same planters they were once slaves of. They could not leave the plantation without a pass and if they did leave without one they were subject to arrest, imprisonment and forfeiture of their wages for the entire year.
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