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Old 03-07-2012, 20:13   #341
EmbryRiddle
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
We have made the point, repeatedly, complete with Lincoln quote and the relevant sections of the constitution, that while the confederate flag may have been the symbol of white supremacy, so was the U.S. flag. Even most of those against slavery had attotudes on race that would match up well with the KKK of today.

You seem to be trying to prove the south/southerners were racist - that's true. But so was the north and northerners. First example that comes to mind: New York, 1863 - a draft riot turned into "a virtual racial pogrom, with uncounted numbers of blacks murdered on the streets."

The popular myths may romanticize it today like there was a racist and an anti-racist side to the war, but there was not.

Looping back to my post above - this "confederate flag as a symbol of racism" BS is relatively new, having happened since I was teenager. It certainly isn't something that goes back to the civil war.
I guess then the only conclusion to come to would be, the north saw the error in their ways, and the south wanted to continue their slavery. The same I guess is shown everyday in this country.....
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I fly one in the front of my house right next to the Florida flag and proud of it.
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Old 03-07-2012, 20:32   #342
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I fly one in the front of my house right next to the Florida flag and proud of it.
Which part are you most proud of, the secession in general or the treason that Florida committed seizing Govt. forts, arsenals etc even BEFORE Florida seceded.

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January 6, 1861: Florida seizes Apalachicola arsenal.
January 7, 1861: Florida seizes Fort Marion.
January 8, 1861: Floridians try to seize Fort Barrancas but are chased off.

January 10, 1861: Florida secedes.
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Old 03-07-2012, 20:40   #343
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Old 03-07-2012, 20:45   #344
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Which part are you most proud of, the secession in general or the treason that Florida committed seizing Govt. forts, arsenals etc even BEFORE Florida seceded.

Why don't you take a guess, secession and treason you say *ha ha*, and by the way I am not prejudice against any man, except sensitive little people , who seem to be more prejudice (AntiConfederate)

Last edited by kat1950; 03-07-2012 at 20:57..
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Old 03-07-2012, 20:53   #345
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Old 03-07-2012, 20:55   #346
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Why don't you take a guess, secession and treason you say *ha ha*, and by the way I am not prejudice against any man, except sensitive little people as yourself, who seem to be more prejudice (AntiConfederate)
Even if you believe that secession was legal you have to face the fact that Florida took up arms against the US Govt. BEFORE it seceded. THAT is treason.
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Old 03-08-2012, 05:08   #347
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Even if you believe that secession was legal you have to face the fact that Florida took up arms against the US Govt. BEFORE it seceded. THAT is treason.
Sort of like the colonies taking up arms against our government when we were British?
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Old 03-08-2012, 05:11   #348
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I guess then the only conclusion to come to would be, the north saw the error in their ways, and the south wanted to continue their slavery. The same I guess is shown everyday in this country.....
The north continued to have legal slavery before, during and after the civil war, when the south no longer existed. Kentucky was the last place in America to have legal slavery, which continued after the civil war because the emancipation proclamation only freed slaves in places that were rebelling. Its purpose was to creat internal problems in confederate states, not to end slavery. States that didn't officially leave the union had slavery until the 14th Amendment was ratified.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:57   #349
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......Looping back to my post above - this "confederate flag as a symbol of racism" BS is relatively new, having happened since I was teenager. It certainly isn't something that goes back to the civil war.
I remember it as a symbol of racisim in the South that I lived in from the 1950's on. Where did you live then? What is new is the current generation of black folks aren't rolling over and taking it quietly anymore.

I'm sure that my late Dad would be upset if he saw a swastika proudly displayed on a neighbor's flagpole. I haven't noticed any symbols of the taliban or al quada displayed around fayetteville recently, wonder why? The confederate flag has the same load.

Your icon is not in BDUs, have you been emancipated?
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:17   #350
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Sort of like the colonies taking up arms against our government when we were British?
There is probably little doubt that if the colonials had lost they at least the leaders would have been handled as traitors, even though at the time the actual status of colonials in relation to England was much disputed in England.

Of course one main difference is that the colonials specified their greviences against the king, but the seceding states could not list a cause against the Federal Govt. their listed reasons for secession were all aimed at other states, not the Federal Govt.

One has to wonder though if we had lost and were still part of the English empire would their be organizations promoting Their "US heritage? a Sons of losing colonials, or United Daughters of the defeated?
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:18   #351
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The north continued to have legal slavery before, during and after the civil war,
One of the staples of the Neo Confederate argument. But which is relatively meaningless since the 13th amendment which abolished slavery was passed by the Senate in April 1864 and by the house in January 1865. DURING the War. Of course it had to undergo the process of ratification. But the fact remains the steps to abolish slavery began during the war.

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when the south no longer existed.
When did this imaginary event occur? The South never ceased to exist. Only the illegitimate entity The Confederacy which SCOTUS declared to never have had a legal existence to begin with ceased to exist. Not the South.

Of course the Neo Confederates have labored hard to try and make people believe that South=Confederate. the latest absurdity being the claim that Southerners are "confederate Americans".
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-08-2012 at 09:55..
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:23   #352
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What changed in the past 20 years?
We became made aware of the fact that African Americans did not like this symbol.
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Old 03-08-2012, 15:07   #353
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It was under this flag that the US Supreme Court ruled it was legal to own slaves. Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857)

Lets not talk about this flag...

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Old 03-08-2012, 16:12   #354
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It was under this flag that the US Supreme Court ruled it was legal to own slaves. Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857)

Lets not talk about this flag...

It's also the flag under which slavery came to an end against the wishes of those who fought under the confederate flag(s).

And under which the 13th and fourteenth amendments were passed that nullified the proslavery Taney supreme court ruling in Dred Scott.

But lets not acknowledge reality.
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Old 03-08-2012, 16:29   #355
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It's also the flag under which slavery came to an end against the wishes of those who fought under the confederate flag(s).

And under which the 13th and fourteenth amendments were passed that nullified the proslavery Taney supreme court ruling in Dred Scott.

But lets not acknowledge reality.
Lets not also "acknowledge reality" that after all of the Confederate slaves were free, Union states still had slavery.
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Old 03-08-2012, 16:36   #356
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Lets not also "acknowledge reality" that after all of the Confederate slaves were free, Union states still had slavery.
Yeah, but it wasn't the confederates who freed their slaves. That was the result of the emancipation proclamation and confederate defeat.

The proclamation BTW did not abolish the institution of slavery, the 13th amendment did.
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Old 03-08-2012, 16:47   #357
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The proclamation BTW did not abolish the institution of slavery, the 13th amendment did.
Exactly. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves of the South.

It took the 13th Amendment to free the last remaining slaves owned by the Northern/Union states, that they did not want to free.

Last edited by Natty; 03-08-2012 at 16:48..
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Old 03-08-2012, 17:08   #358
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Exactly. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves of the South.
More accurately the emancipation only freed the slaves of the confederates. it was a war measure not an amendment.

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It took the 13th Amendment to free the last remaining slaves owned by the Northern/Union states, that they did not want to free.
The 13th amendment abolished the institution of slavery that still existed north and south. in other words the Southern ex confederate states still had slavery too, just no slaves.

If the North didn't want to free them how did the 13th amendment get passed?
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 03-08-2012 at 17:09..
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Old 03-08-2012, 17:34   #359
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Exactly. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves of the South.
Actually, only those slaves in states attempting to secede. A striking example of Lincoln's respect for the Constitution.
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Old 03-08-2012, 17:55   #360
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Actually, only those slaves in states attempting to secede. A striking example of Lincoln's respect for the Constitution.
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