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Old 06-26-2011, 09:37   #281
Gray_Rider
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
We actually have someone defending slavery?

We actually have someone defending slavery.

What a wretched excuse for morality! What twisted soul could imagine such, would cling so fiercely to an imagined time past that he would embrace such an obscenity? Even the institution's benefactors and beneficiaries were smart enough to turn their public face away from the horrid thing when they lost. Maybe they realized that God did indeed vindicate---only it wasn't their prayer that was granted.

We have millions defending the destruction of the Constitutional Republic and the rape of its Constutition by a sitting president, Mr. Spade; and, the murder of over 50,000 Confederate civilians through starvation, deprivation, denial of medical supplies, and the sword; against then existing international law. No one seems to care about that. But black slavery in a nation that existed about five years...now there's something to get upset about. See "The Unpopular Mr. Lincoln" Larry Tagg. It seems the North almost tore itself apart over the freeing of the slaves by the famous proclamation. Facts are facts, and the New York uprising (1863, and just after the Union victory at Gettysburg no less) that took thousands of Union troops to put down with the firing on Union citizens, wasn't about the flavor of ice cream that would be served at the victory celebration over the hated slave holding South.


And concerning the "morality" of slave holding, the Bible is cover to cover about the use and often misuse of slaves. Nowhere does God forbid it, but he does set down very clear laws concerning its use. We get into trouble calling something sin when God himself does not. And believe me he has had centuries to do so. Slaves were to obey their masters and slave owners were held accountable by God for their proper care. But that is to quote an old adage "another story". No one makes a fuss over Islam's (whose people's sandals we kiss daily) use of slavery to this very day and their being responsible for more slavery than almost any other group in history. Only the hated Confederacy is morally wrong.

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Old 06-26-2011, 09:55   #282
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So where do you people get your KKK robes dry cleaned?
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Old 06-26-2011, 12:20   #283
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Gray Rider and others have said repeatedly and clearly that they are not in favor of or defending slavery. Why the childish name calling response?
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Old 06-26-2011, 12:50   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsrat View Post
Gray Rider and others have said repeatedly and clearly that they are not in favor of or defending slavery. Why the childish name calling response?


.........you must not be reading the same thread.....here you go for reading comprehension.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt. It clouds your reasoning. Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES. From the lowly to the landed. That means NOTHING to you. Let them die and decrease the surplus population I suppose. I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did. How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers? Tobacco and Cotton was the only cash for decades and black, (free yes there were hundreds and slave, and white!!!!??) labor, produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars. The South is your eternal boogie man. I'm sad you have bought the Kool Aid and drank it.
If we evil Southerners took care of our slaves as you think we did, the Confederacy wouldn't have lasted a month. We should have sailed back to England and let the kindly Spainards have it all.

Your beloved Union got EXACTLY what it bought and paid for.

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if that's not defending slavery, then what is?
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Old 06-26-2011, 13:04   #285
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
really? so what do you call it when the States seized Federal property that was LEGALLY the property of the united States?

And with the exception of fort Sumter all the states that seized Union Forts and arsenals did so BEFORE they even seceded.

I think seizing Union property and firing on union ships and ultimately a Union fort counts as BOTH rebellion and treason.

January 3, 1861: Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski.

January 19, 1861: Georgia secedes.

January 4, 1861: Alabama seizes U.S. arsenal at Mount Vernon.
January 5, 1861: Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines.

January 11, 1861: Alabama secedes.

January 6, 1861: Florida seizes Apalachicola arsenal.
January 7, 1861: Florida seizes Fort Marion.
January 8, 1861: Floridians try to seize Fort Barrancas but are chased off.

January 10, 1861: Florida secedes.


January 10, 1861 Louisiana seizes U.S. arsenal at Baton Rouge, as well
as Forts Jackson and St. Philip.
January 11, 1861 Louisiana seizes U.S. Marine Hospital.
January 14, 1861: Louisiana seizes Fort Pike.

January 26, 1861: Louisiana secedes.

February 8, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. Arsenal at Little Rock.
February 12, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. ordnance stores at Napoleon.

May 6, 1861 Arkansas Secedes.
That's just good tactics. Take out your enemy's means to resist before you do something that will provoke a response.
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Old 06-26-2011, 13:10   #286
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
And when a quarter, a half, of your state's voters own something, the motive for going to war to keep it gets a little clearer.
That's a problem we're going to have to face again soon, what with the entitlement class closing in on 50%.
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Old 06-26-2011, 15:49   #287
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One other thing Dragoon. Slaves weren't "escaping in droves". The Confederacy would have collapsed overnight if they had.
The national park service estimates that around 1000 slaves a year escaped thru the "underground railroad" every year between 1820 and 1860 so that is about 40,000 just thru the underground railroad alone.

Regardless of the actual overall numbers it was sufficient that the issue of the Northern states refusing to return runaway slaves became a STATE issue with the slave states. that alone tells you it was not a handful of slaves here and there.

The South insisting on a strengthened "Fugitive slave act" also bears witness to the fact that runaway slaves were a major problem for the slave states.

Quote:
They had their chance for years when every able bodied man available was hundreds of miles away and usualy afoot. Kindly Mr. Lincoln even gave them an engraved invitation to murder their masters and "whitefolks" and it STILL didn't happen.
What DID happen was that every time the Union army drew near multitudes of slaves escaped and attached themselves tot he Union army. this is documented over and over during the war and caused a considerable problem with the union forces having to deal with the mass of slaves wanting to attach themselves to the union forces.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 06-26-2011 at 21:21..
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Old 06-26-2011, 15:52   #288
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Originally Posted by HexHead View Post
That's just good tactics. Take out your enemy's means to resist before you do something that will provoke a response.
Thank you for proving my point that the South DID NOT secede peacefully.

I am curious though as to your definition of provocation, you seem to want to exclude the Confederates illegally seizing legally owned Union forts and arsenals as being provocation. So if someone comes and seizes YOUR property what further must they do before you would consider yourself "provoked"?
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Old 06-26-2011, 16:41   #289
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And concerning the "morality" of slave holding, the Bible is cover to cover about the use and often misuse of slaves. *Nowhere does God forbid it, but he does set down very clear laws concerning its use. We get into trouble calling something sin when God himself does not.
God does NOT in fact condone every form of slavery, and to understand the Slavery in the Old testament among the Hebrews and the nation of Israel one must understand the differences between the form of slavery "regulated" by the Bible and the other forms of slavery that existed elsewhere in the ancient world and up to today. The "slavery" among the hebrews was what we today would call "indentured servitude."

God did not condone or tolerate involuntary servitude among his people.

Quote:
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
The Egyptians put His people into involuntary servitude and when Pharaoh refused to let them go God poured out plagues upon Egypt until they were released.

Slavery among the Hebrews was a consequence of those unable to maintain their own food, shelter, clothing, etc. there were no social safety nets like we have today so people would sell themselves (voluntarily) into slavery and even their families with them just so their basic needs would be met, in return for their labor. And the Law also provided a means by which the one who sold themselves into slavery could redeem themselves from it either by a set length of service or by purchasing their freedom.

The Only permanent slavery that God permitted was voluntary on the part of the slave, if when the time came for them to be free they expressed a desire to remain as a slave then their ear lobe was punctured with an awl at the doorpost of the house and they were then a slave for life to that master.

slaves were to be set free every seven years or in the year of Jubilee whichever came first.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 15:12–15 (ESV)
12 “If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. 13 And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed. 14 You shall furnish him liberally ...
Quote:
"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2)
God's law dictated severe punishments for those that mistreated their slaves.


Quote:
"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)
"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27)
It also FORBID the return of a runaway slave.

Quote:
"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. (Deuteronomy 23:15)
In the New testament slave traders are listed among the Ungodly and the sinners, the unholy and the profane.


Quote:
1Ti 1:9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and anything else that is contrary to sound doctrine,
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 06-27-2011 at 09:01..
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Old 06-26-2011, 17:15   #290
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Embry Riddle, He was explaining "why" not defending. I wasn't talking to you anyway. I was referring to Ptmccain's Klan reference. Slavery is gone and not supported by any Southern organization or southern supporters that I know of. The Klan doesn't support it, they want exactly what Lincoln himself wanted. Which was "To put all the blacks on a ship and send 'em off, so the govt. doesn't have to house, feed, and educate 'em." Why should he assume that all supporters of the C.S.A. are Klansman, or racists. Besides the Klan no longer is the org. he seems to think it is. Just because someone understands why and how something happened, does not mean they are in favor of it or want it.
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Old 06-26-2011, 17:35   #291
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Thank you for proving my point that the South DID NOT secede peacefully.

I am curious though as to your definition of provocation, you seem to want to exclude the Confederates illegally seizing legally owned Union forts and arsenals as being provocation. So if someone comes and seizes YOUR property what further must they do before you would consider yourself "provoked"?
Given that the secession came just days after those incidents you posted, it appears they didn't give a damn if it looked provacative. Again, just good tactics. Neutralize your enemy's ability to attack you to stop the secession. Just like in the Cold War, the best defense is a strong offense.
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Old 06-26-2011, 18:19   #292
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I wanted add that I agree with the point GR was making. Most of the haters of the South, are blaming 14 states, and a few territories, in one country, for something that occurred throughout the world since one tribe conquered another. Yes slavery was/is bad, but like it or not it built Egypt, Rome, the Mayan and Incan empire, China, Germany, etc. And like it or not it built the U.S.
Most historians and economists think slavery would have died out on it's own by 1880 or 1890 due to industrialization. mechanization and the industrial revolution. Slavery was just the most politically popular reason for the war of northern aggression. The central federalist govt. wanted what the south had to offer economically. When lincoln first mentioned freeing the slaves two (I think) northern states threatened secession. He lost some congressional districts as well. His solution was to free only the slaves in the states in "rebellion". In the north and east, indians, asians, the irish and all "endentured servants" were still legal to own. It finally took a constitutional amendment years later to free them. Every "Johnny Reb" wasn't fighting to "keep the black man down". Most couldn't afford to own slaves. They were fighting to keep the federal gov. out of their states business. Well, the north succeeded and look where we are now. The gov. in every facet of our daily existence. Now they are talking about "modernizing" the constitution. Wonder how that will go?
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Old 06-26-2011, 18:56   #293
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Most historians and economists think slavery would have died out on it's own by 1880 or 1890 due to industrialization. mechanization and the industrial revolution.
Which has absolutely NOTING to do with the confederates intent or reasons for secession. Their articles of secession and their Confederate constitution was about the preservation of the institution of slavery AND expanding it into new territories and new states.

Under the confederate constitution slavery was protected and no member state could enact laws prohibiting slavery.

Quote:
Slavery was just the most politically popular reason for the war of northern aggression.
except that the North did not go to war to end slavery, they went to war to preserve the union.

Quote:
The central federalist govt. wanted what the south had to offer economically
The North recognized the confederate states for what they were, rebellious states and treated them accordingly.

Quote:
His solution was to free only the slaves in the states in "rebellion".
Lincoln had no authority to "free" the salves in every state. He did have the authority to free the slaves in States that were in rebellion.

Quote:
They were fighting to keep the federal gov. out of their states business.
More of the "lost cause" BS peddled by the losing confederates AFTER they lost the war. Claiming they were fighting for "freedom and liberty".
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Old 06-26-2011, 18:59   #294
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Given that the secession came just days after those incidents you posted, it appears they didn't give a damn if it looked provacative. Again, just good tactics. Neutralize your enemy's ability to attack you to stop the secession. Just like in the Cold War, the best defense is a strong offense.
What it shows is they were not "Peacefully" seceding like neo confederates like Grey Rider like to claim. and yes he has made that claim in this thread.

Seizing the legal property of the union, firing on Union ships and union forts is not "peaceful secession.
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Old 06-26-2011, 20:40   #295
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Dragoon44, I do agree with you on one thing. "They didn't go to war to stop slavery, they went to war to preserve the union." When you take all the "reasons" away, the war was fought because the south said "we're leaving", and the north said "no you can't". On this I agree with you 100%. I just don't agree with you on what led up to that decision. As an aside, I do like dragoons.
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Old 06-26-2011, 21:28   #296
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I just don't agree with you on what led up to that decision.
I am not quite clear on which "decision" you are referring to, is it the decision of the Confederate States to secede?
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Old 06-26-2011, 22:18   #297
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Yes, I agree the war was ultimately about the south's secession.
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Old 06-27-2011, 15:55   #298
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
God does NOT in fact condone every form of slavery, and to understand the Slavery in the Old testament among the Hebrews and the nation of Israel one must understand the differences between the form of slavery "regulated" by the Bible and the other forms of slavery that existed elsewhere in the ancient world and up to today. The "slavery" among the hebrews was what we today would call "indentured servitude."

God did not condone or tolerate involuntary servitude among his people.



The Egyptians put His people into involuntary servitude and when Pharaoh refused to let them go God poured out plagues upon Egypt until they were released.

Slavery among the Hebrews was a consequence of those unable to maintain their own food, shelter, clothing, etc. there were no social safety nets like we have today so people would sell themselves (voluntarily) into slavery and even their families with them just so their basic needs would be met, in return for their labor. And the Law also provided a means by which the one who sold themselves into slavery could redeem themselves from it either by a set length of service or by purchasing their freedom.

The Only permanent slavery that God permitted was voluntary on the part of the slave, if when the time came for them to be free they expressed a desire to remain as a slave then their ear lobe was punctured with an awl at the doorpost of the house and they were then a slave for life to that master.

slaves were to be set free every seven years or in the year of Jubilee whichever came first.





God's law dictated severe punishments for those that mistreated their slaves.




It also FORBID the return of a runaway slave.



In the New testament slave traders are listed among the Ungodly and the sinners, the unholy and the profane.
Well shucks, are the Northern slave owners and slave traders that had slavery for 200 years from colonial times until after the Civil War your point?
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Old 06-27-2011, 16:36   #299
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Well shucks, are the Northern slave owners and slave traders that had slavery for 200 years from colonial times until after the Civil War your point?
The point is that trying to use the Bible to support the institution of slavery as it existed in the 17th 18th and 19th centuries in America is dishonest.

And there were northern states that never had slavery to begin with as well as those that banned it or legislated gradual emancipation long before the civil war.

And NONE of those Northern states tried to Enshrine it and protect it for perpetuity like the Confederate states did.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:59   #300
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My only question (well, I must admit, not the only question ) to all the Confederacy/"Neo Confederate" haters is why is all the fuss made over black slavery as practiced by the South for four years as a nation. No one seems to give the proverbial tinker's ______ about all the slavery that has existed for centuries and built all the civilizations in the world. I don't have the time or patience to list them all but...

For instance.

No fuss is made over the African kings who sold their own people (many of whom were already slaves) to our "good buddies" the Arabs. Who, (Really???!!) were and are one of the major slave trading peoples and civilizations on the face of the world. And were so for centuries. We celebrate ramadon and list their "holy days" on our calenders. Try to find Confederate Memorial Day on almost any calender today. That, children, is a sign of RACISIM!! Because the eeeevil Confederates even included the continuation of Black Slavery in their very Constitution!!


Gee! Wonder why they did that??!! Well maybe. Just maybe. In the 1860s the Republician Party sought to redifine property rights sanctified by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence and guaranteed by the Constitution, to redefine said property rights to exclude slaves!

Said slaves. Held in the South. Were worth roughly, in today's money, to be in the billions if not trillions of dollars. But never mind these facts children. They are only Neo Confederate lies made up to cover the evils of slave keeping in the South.

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