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Old 03-08-2012, 08:18   #351
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The north continued to have legal slavery before, during and after the civil war,
One of the staples of the Neo Confederate argument. But which is relatively meaningless since the 13th amendment which abolished slavery was passed by the Senate in April 1864 and by the house in January 1865. DURING the War. Of course it had to undergo the process of ratification. But the fact remains the steps to abolish slavery began during the war.

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when the south no longer existed.
When did this imaginary event occur? The South never ceased to exist. Only the illegitimate entity The Confederacy which SCOTUS declared to never have had a legal existence to begin with ceased to exist. Not the South.

Of course the Neo Confederates have labored hard to try and make people believe that South=Confederate. the latest absurdity being the claim that Southerners are "confederate Americans".
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:23   #352
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Originally Posted by speedsix View Post
What changed in the past 20 years?
We became made aware of the fact that African Americans did not like this symbol.
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Old 03-08-2012, 14:07   #353
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It was under this flag that the US Supreme Court ruled it was legal to own slaves. Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857)

Lets not talk about this flag...

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Old 03-08-2012, 15:12   #354
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
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It was under this flag that the US Supreme Court ruled it was legal to own slaves. Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857)

Lets not talk about this flag...

It's also the flag under which slavery came to an end against the wishes of those who fought under the confederate flag(s).

And under which the 13th and fourteenth amendments were passed that nullified the proslavery Taney supreme court ruling in Dred Scott.

But lets not acknowledge reality.
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Old 03-08-2012, 15:29   #355
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
It's also the flag under which slavery came to an end against the wishes of those who fought under the confederate flag(s).

And under which the 13th and fourteenth amendments were passed that nullified the proslavery Taney supreme court ruling in Dred Scott.

But lets not acknowledge reality.
Lets not also "acknowledge reality" that after all of the Confederate slaves were free, Union states still had slavery.
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Old 03-08-2012, 15:36   #356
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Lets not also "acknowledge reality" that after all of the Confederate slaves were free, Union states still had slavery.
Yeah, but it wasn't the confederates who freed their slaves. That was the result of the emancipation proclamation and confederate defeat.

The proclamation BTW did not abolish the institution of slavery, the 13th amendment did.
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Old 03-08-2012, 15:47   #357
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post

The proclamation BTW did not abolish the institution of slavery, the 13th amendment did.
Exactly. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves of the South.

It took the 13th Amendment to free the last remaining slaves owned by the Northern/Union states, that they did not want to free.

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Old 03-08-2012, 16:08   #358
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Exactly. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves of the South.
More accurately the emancipation only freed the slaves of the confederates. it was a war measure not an amendment.

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It took the 13th Amendment to free the last remaining slaves owned by the Northern/Union states, that they did not want to free.
The 13th amendment abolished the institution of slavery that still existed north and south. in other words the Southern ex confederate states still had slavery too, just no slaves.

If the North didn't want to free them how did the 13th amendment get passed?
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Old 03-08-2012, 16:34   #359
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Exactly. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves of the South.
Actually, only those slaves in states attempting to secede. A striking example of Lincoln's respect for the Constitution.
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Old 03-08-2012, 16:55   #360
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Actually, only those slaves in states attempting to secede. A striking example of Lincoln's respect for the Constitution.
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Old 03-08-2012, 17:47   #361
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A striking example of Lincoln's respect for the Constitution.
That's funny right there Sam
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Old 03-08-2012, 17:52   #362
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
More accurately the emancipation only freed the slaves of the confederates. it was a war measure not an amendment.

If the North didn't want to free them how did the 13th amendment get passed?
New Jersey rejected ratification of the 13th Amendment at first.

They only had a handful of slaves left after the war was over but they sure wanted to hold onto them. They even changed their name from slaves to apprentices for life to make them feel better.

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Old 03-08-2012, 17:57   #363
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That's funny right there Sam
Wasn't meant to be, though I can see how those who worship at the altar of the lost cause would be pulled up short.

Lincoln knew that the Constitution prohibited taking private property, and acknowledged that (as abhorrent as it was) slaves were private property.

However, the customs of war absolutely allowed the taking of contraband, things which furthered the enemy's war effort, and slaves did just that. So, he addressed the item in his role as Commander in Chief of the forces which were putting down a rebellion. That's obvious; notice that he didn't free slaves held in areas that hadn't rebelled. He didn't free slaves held in places like New Orleans, or in the VA counties that were under Union control--they couldn't be said to be advancing the CSA's war effort. And, he gave the states attempting to depart an opportunity to rejoin the Union and keep their slaves.

All done very properly.
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Old 03-08-2012, 18:26   #364
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
New Jersey rejected ratification of the 13th Amendment at first.

They only had a handful of slaves left after the war was over but they sure wanted to hold onto them. They even changed their name from slaves to apprentices for life to make them feel better.

Those 16-18 ones left probably had it better than millions of ex slaves in the former confederate states that passed laws requiring former slaves could only work with written contracts if the job was for longer than one month and could not quit their jobs. if they left they not only forfeited their entire years wages they were subject to arrest and imprisonment.

Kinda sounds like slavery doesn't it?
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:45   #365
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Soldiers carrying this flag committed the most, and the worst, Terrorist attacks ever against Americans in the history of the our country.

But lets not talk about the real history of this flag...
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:18   #366
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
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Soldiers carrying this flag committed the most, and the worst, Terrorist attacks ever against Americans in the history of the our country.

But lets not talk about the real history of this flag...
is this part of the "Sherman was the debil" MYTH?

The unsubstantiated claims that he raped and murdered his way across the south.
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Old 03-09-2012, 13:05   #367
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
is this part of the "Sherman was the debil" MYTH?

The unsubstantiated claims that he raped and murdered his way across the south.
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Old 03-09-2012, 13:53   #368
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
One of the staples of the Neo Confederate argument. But which is relatively meaningless since the 13th amendment which abolished slavery was passed by the Senate in April 1864 and by the house in January 1865. DURING the War. Of course it had to undergo the process of ratification. But the fact remains the steps to abolish slavery began during the war.
Which still doesn't give much support to this "let's make the confederate flag a racist symbol" movement of the last 20 years or less. That's my point, both sides were racist and slave-owning and, as the supporters of the north - you for example - like to point out, the north didn't actually start a war to end slavery until the south seceded and fired the first shots.

That's my whole point - neither side can claim to be anti-racist or to have considered blacks deserving of equality. The few with attitudes like that couldn't feel a good-sized "occupy" camp.

That's wjhy I ask: "how did this, very recent, 'rebel flag is racist' BS start?"


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Old 03-09-2012, 14:24   #369
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That's wjhy I ask: "how did this, very recent, 'rebel flag is racist' BS start?"
Accepting for the sake of discussion your assertion that this is something new, the answer is obvious: with recent racists who selected a symbol. You'll notice similar antics in history---the Navajo basketball team can no longer use a swastika on their uniforms, and I, for one, wouldn't be caught dead flying a Gadsden flag today.

And if we don't accept your "recent" label, it's still the symbol of those who fought to destroy the Union with the express goal of retaining the privilege of buying, selling and working to death other humans. Which, of course, explains the motives of recent racists in their selection.

So regardless of the storied history you want to bring up, it is what it is.
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Old 03-09-2012, 15:56   #370
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Accepting for the sake of discussion your assertion that this is something new, the answer is obvious: with recent racists who selected a symbol. You'll notice similar antics in history---the Navajo basketball team can no longer use a swastika on their uniforms, and I, for one, wouldn't be caught dead flying a Gadsden flag today.

And if we don't accept your "recent" label, it's still the symbol of those who fought to destroy the Union with the express goal of retaining the privilege of buying, selling and working to death other humans. Which, of course, explains the motives of recent racists in their selection.

So regardless of the storied history you want to bring up, it is what it is.
the truth.....
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Old 03-09-2012, 17:55   #371
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post

And if we don't accept your "recent" label, it's still the symbol of those who fought to destroy the Union with the express goal of retaining the privilege of buying, selling and working to death other humans. Which, of course, explains the motives of recent racists in their selection.
The Southern states never worked slaves to death, they were much too valuable.

As for buying and selling slaves, this happened in the North for up to 200 years in places like Boston, Philadelphia, New York and Rhode Island.

But the truth is not taught in Northern schools...

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Old 03-09-2012, 19:31   #372
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As for buying and selling slaves, this happened in the North for up to 200 years in places like Boston, Philadelphia, New York and Rhode Island.

But the truth is not taught in Northern schools...
You are fond of posting pics of the U.S. flag and claiming slavery existed under that flag for over 200 years.

Apparently Southern education is quite lacking since The US had not even been in existence for 200 years by the time of the 13th amendment.

taking the date of of the DOI 1776, how long did the state you mention have slavery?

Massachusetts- Banned slavery in 1783

Pennsylvania- adopted gradual emancipation in 1780

New York- banned slavery in 1799

Rhode Island- adopted gradual emancipation 1784

So three took action to end slavery within 4-8 years of 1776 the fourth within 23 years of 1776.

Of course if you count the time of the ratification of the constitution then three of them moved to end slavery between 9-5 years BEFORE the ratification of the Constitution with NY acting within 10 years of the ratification of the U.S. constitution.
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Old 03-09-2012, 19:34   #373
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But the truth is not taught in Northern schools...
First, who ever said I went to a Northern school?

And regardless of where I was educated, I'd think you'd have discovered thatI've got a pretty firm grasp on the facts of history during our various discussions.
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:14   #374
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First, who ever said I went to a Northern school?

And regardless of where I was educated, I'd think you'd have discovered thatI've got a pretty firm grasp on the facts of history during our various discussions.

but, but, but....you had to have gone to a Nothern school, because you're not on our side! (and you think slavery is wrong!)

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Old 03-10-2012, 09:35   #375
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You are fond of posting pics of the U.S. flag and claiming slavery existed under that flag for over 200 years.

Apparently Southern education is quite lacking since The US had not even been in existence for 200 years by the time of the 13th amendment.

taking the date of of the DOI 1776, how long did the state you mention have slavery?

Massachusetts- Banned slavery in 1783

Pennsylvania- adopted gradual emancipation in 1780

New York- banned slavery in 1799

Rhode Island- adopted gradual emancipation 1784

So three took action to end slavery within 4-8 years of 1776 the fourth within 23 years of 1776.

Of course if you count the time of the ratification of the constitution then three of them moved to end slavery between 9-5 years BEFORE the ratification of the Constitution with NY acting within 10 years of the ratification of the U.S. constitution.
Pennsylvania had slavery from 1639 as a British colony until 1845 as a US state. 206 Years of slavery.

New York had slavery from 1626 as a British colony until 1827 as a US state. 201 years of slavery.

Rhode Island had slavery from 1652 as a British colony until 1842 as a US state. 190 years of slavery.
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