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Old 06-22-2011, 18:49   #261
EmbryRiddle
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All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt. It clouds your reasoning. Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES. From the lowly to the landed. That means NOTHING to you. Let them die and decrease the surplus population I suppose. I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did. How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers? Tobacco and Cotton was the only cash for decades and black, (free yes there were hundreds and slave, and white!!!!??) labor, produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars. The South is your eternal boogie man. I'm sad you have bought the Kool Aid and drank it.
If we evil Southerners took care of our slaves as you think we did, the Confederacy wouldn't have lasted a month. We should have sailed back to England and let the kindly Spainards have it all.

Your beloved Union got EXACTLY what it bought and paid for.

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....I guess anybody can find a justification for anything nowadays.....
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Old 06-22-2011, 18:52   #262
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This may not apply in your GGF's situation and we will never know, but frequently slaves were family ( brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews, children or grandchildren).

Thomas Jefferson's arrangement was not the only one of its kind and in tough times family counts for something.

Does your family history say why he freed the slaves at that time?

If you are referring to mulattoes; Yes, there was 'family' of that sort. BUT.
As the books I have recommended prove, white on black sexual mingling was more prevailent in the North. Slaves were often counted as family. They often lived and died for generations with the same people. They helped raise the children, cook the food, bring in the harvest that they all shared etc. and were members of thousands of white families all their lives. Many died or were maimed defending their owner's property, from their Union chainbreakers. I'm tired of beating a rotten horse here. READ THE BOOKS I HAVE RECOMMENDED. Then come talk to me.

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Old 06-22-2011, 19:36   #263
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My Great Grandfather freed his slaves before the war, and they asked to stay with him. They were his family as much as he was theirs. They were a part of his family for decades. He was a good master and a good man. He was later involved in what was known as "The Burning". The destruction of the Shenandoah Valley by the kindly Union troops, that left thousands of innocent civilians, black and white, murdered, maimed, and destitute much like Sherman's march in the South. Show me 1/1000th of that kind of damage ANYWHERE by Confederate troops. Show me ANYTHING done to the slaves in the South that even comes close. Show me the graves dug up, and the corpses robbed. Show me Union dead that were desecrated as Southern corpses were. Show me the church pews burned as campfire wood. Show me the weeping orphans and destitute Union women. The starving enfebeled. The sick. The old left to die with their homes and lands ravaged. SHOW ME!
What is overlooked and ignored was that thousands of slaves had been freed over the years in the South and more were being freed every year. Again, this is covered in great detail in the books listed by me. To date. NO ONE has taken ANY statement in ANY book I have recomended to task. I think that has some merit just on it's own.

I will not have the South remembered for a pack of Union lies. I used to believe those lies. My Great Grandfather was a Union soldier, but I have distant relatives that fought with the Moccasin Rangers. I will NEVER join the GAR or any group honoring the Union or the men who fought for it. I am however joining the Sons of Confederate Veterans as soon as I get some papers in order for a proper search. Sadly, I don't speak for all Southerners. I speak for me and the brave Confederate dead that died for the Constutional Government Lincoln destroyed.

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Old 06-22-2011, 19:39   #264
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....I guess anybody can find a justification for anything nowadays.....

Yes Embry. We should have just starved and lived in manure huts.

Unbelieveable.
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:41   #265
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Yes Embry. We should have just starved and lived in manure huts.

Unbelieveable.

Yea, its unbelievable how far off your moral compass is.....
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:42   #266
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Prove ONE statement WRONG Embry. Please.

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Old 06-22-2011, 19:45   #267
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All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt.
Then you need glasses, I have no "white guilt" I am the direct descendant of a man that came to this country in 1630's as an indentured servant. And yes my ancestors had slaves. Though they got out of the slave owning business in 1843.

Guilt? that is hilarious, why should I feel guilty? My great-great-great grandfathers slaves not only got their freedom they got his property as well. My idiot ancestors (G__G_Grandfathers sons) who were well to do bankrupted themselves trying to break their fathers will so they could have his property and sell his slaves. They lost.

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Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES.
So if slavery was so vital a necessity in the 1700's how it is that so many states abolished it or passed legislation of gradual emancipation? However did the poor settlers of the Northwest territory survive since slavery was banned there? If your bogus (and regurgitated) neo confederate claims were tru none of the settlers in the free states could have possibly survived.

Slavery in the south was on the wane until the invention of the cotton Gin. So it was not "survival" that caused the South to cling so fiercely to slavery, it was PROFIT.

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I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did.
False, the use of indentured servants worked, but indentured servants got their freedom within 4 to 7 years. So indentured servants were less profitable than slaves which you never had to free and they also reproduced giving you more slaves to work or sell.

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How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers?
Maybe you should ask that question of the settlers of the northwest territories and the free states ow they managed to not only survive, but thrive without slavery. According to you that should not have been possible.

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produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars.
Actually that was the claim of the early neo confederates, that slavery freed the whites from labor and allowed them to develop and maintain their "superior" culture.


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The South is your eternal boogie man.
I am willing to bet my family has been inn the south as long if not longer than your own. it's been some 380 years for my family.

The difference between us is I see the confederates for what they were and have not swallowed the "lost cause" kool aid which appears to be your favorite beverage.
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:52   #268
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I speak for me and the brave Confederate dead that died for the Constutional Government Lincoln destroyed.
What a load of neo confederate crap, the lie that the south fought for "freedom and liberty" is what they claimed AFTER they lost. and started promulgating the myth of the "Lost cause". because they didn't want history to remember them as the traitors they were.

Post all the BS neo confederate claims you like, I will rebutt with the statements and speeches of the southern leaders, their articles of secession, and the letters and speeches of the secession commissioners. it is all in the historical record and it plainly states WHY the south seceded, and it wasn't for freedom and liberty.

What a mockery, they fought for the "freedom and Liberty" to enslave others.
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:53   #269
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Just read the books Dragoon. Then come talk to me. No one has called them or the facts therein into account here yet. I'm still waiting. Again I say. Nowhere is slavery villified but here in America; and only when the South depended on it and the North made hundreds of millions bringing slaves here and millions more in their cotton mills and tobacco sales all over Europe and America. No other slavery matters does it?

As the punchline to an old joke goes....YOU know!

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Last edited by Gray_Rider; 06-22-2011 at 20:10..
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Old 06-22-2011, 20:04   #270
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Just read the books Dragoon. Then come talk to me. No one has called them into account here yet. I'm still waiting.

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You have been making your arguments primarily from Thomas DiLorenzo's and other libertarian/neo confederates writings and your arguments have been met and refuted.

I'll point you to some books,

The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: The "Great Truth" about the "Lost Cause"
James W. Loewen Editor

Apostles of Disunion- The letters and speeches of the secession commissioners
Charles Dew
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 06-22-2011 at 20:18..
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Old 06-22-2011, 20:45   #271
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Again I say. Nowhere is slavery villified but here in America;
while not entirely accurate,( England outlawed slavery in 1833) I would point out that only in america was a government instituted that declared,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The confederates detested the Declaration because of that passage.
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:21   #272
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We actually have someone defending slavery?

We actually have someone defending slavery.

What a wretched excuse for morality! What twisted soul could imagine such, would cling so fiercely to an imagined time past that he would embrace such an obscenity? Even the institution's benefactors and beneficiaries were smart enough to turn their public face away from the horrid thing when they lost. Maybe they realized that God did indeed vindicate---only it wasn't their prayer that was granted.
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:36   #273
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We actually have someone defending slavery?

We actually have someone defending slavery.

What a wretched excuse for morality! What twisted soul could imagine such, would cling so fiercely to an imagined time past that he would embrace such an obscenity? Even the institution's benefactors and beneficiaries were smart enough to turn their public face away from the horrid thing when they lost. Maybe they realized that God did indeed vindicate---only it wasn't their prayer that was granted.

LoL, not just defending it, but embracing it.....
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:11   #274
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We actually have someone defending slavery?
And all in the name of "liberty and freedom" no less.
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:28   #275
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All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt. It clouds your reasoning. Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES. From the lowly to the landed. That means NOTHING to you. Let them die and decrease the surplus population I suppose. I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did. How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers? Tobacco and Cotton was the only cash for decades and black, (free yes there were hundreds and slave, and white!!!!??) labor, produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars. The South is your eternal boogie man. I'm sad you have bought the Kool Aid and drank it.
If we evil Southerners took care of our slaves as you think we did, the Confederacy wouldn't have lasted a month. We should have sailed back to England and let the kindly Spainards have it all.

Your beloved Union got EXACTLY what it bought and paid for.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
This pretty much sums up the discussion of why the flag is hated by some and loved to death by others....
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:03   #276
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Rather than become involved in an endless debate about the causes of the war or the conduct of the war itself, let me relate a personal experience that may or may not pertain. I used to re-enact the Civil War, and the unit I rode with (the 3rd Texas Cavalry/6th U.S. Cavalry) had to be able to portray either side. Some years later my wife and I were involved with an equestrian group in organizing a local horse show. One of the classes the wife and I sponsored. That was the 'Costume' class. I showed up as a Rebel Cavalry trooper. My equipment was part Federal as the Rebs were never averse to using captured gear. I wore a light gray Kepi, Brown-Gray shell jacket(a color common to Louisiana/East Texas units) and butternut riding trousers tucked into black boots. I carryed carbine('59 Sharps), pistol('51 Colt Navy), and Saber(captured Federal 1860 light cavalry) while riding an 1859 McClellan saddle. All this gear was replica, not original. While prepping for the class, I had several people come up to me, shake my hand, and thank me , ". . . for what you're doing." This was quite a surprise to me as I was not cognizant of attempting to make any particular point. I just wanted to do something different and I was sure no one else would show up as one of J.E.B. Stuart's minions.

By-the-way, I won the class. A couple of sour-grapes folks approached me after the class and asserted that the only reason I had won was because my wife and I had sponsored the class. Not wanting to start a fight, I answered by taking a humorous approach; I said, "No Ma'am, that's not so. The real reason I won the class was because I was the only one in the arena who was armed!"
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:33   #277
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Bravo kjm1016! Well handled. And I thank you for reenacting one of J.E.B. Stewart's finest. I too have reenacted in the past, 2nd South Carolina Company A, and I display an educational table at WBS events dressed as a Confederate soldier. Since the arrival of my beloved son, I haven't had the time to continue with the display or re-enacting. I do remember times when our troops in gray were assembling for the crowd, there were the occasional catcalls of "Traitors!" etc. (There are a lot of Yankees that have moved into our fair state)and we have our fair share of "scallawags". I gave one such woman a cold sobering look, and she looked embarrassed and fell silent. Most of the time we get huge cheers and of course the kids love us. It is sad the state of history being taught in public schools these days.

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Old 06-26-2011, 07:46   #278
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Once, in the fall of 2003, I had the chance to offer my display in Franklin Pa., a town where I lived in as a child and where I graduated HS. During the event, a celebration the 250th anv. of the French in Venango county. (It was a French and Indian War celebration) We had hundreds visit our table. Kids brought their parents. Parents brought their kids. Teachers rounded up their students that were present and took notes for class projects and tests etc. The interest in the Confederacy was amazing. Two little girls (about 11 or 12) stayed till we loaded the very last of our things into the car. My late wife was always dressed as a housewife of the period and due to her cancer, answered questions and watched the table any time I had to step away. A year later, to the week, she lay dying. That weekend was, and is still, the sweetest of my life.

Rest well my love. "For the moon never beams without bringing me dreams..."


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Old 06-26-2011, 08:17   #279
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We actually have someone defending slavery?

We actually have someone defending slavery.

What a wretched excuse for morality! What twisted soul could imagine such, would cling so fiercely to an imagined time past that he would embrace such an obscenity? Even the institution's benefactors and beneficiaries were smart enough to turn their public face away from the horrid thing when they lost. Maybe they realized that God did indeed vindicate---only it wasn't their prayer that was granted.
Read my posts. All of them Mr. Spade, on this and other threads on the subject. I never "defended" the "instiution" all I said was IT WORKED when nothing else did. Cotton and tobacco was the engine that got the colonies off its knees and built the country. Both crops took years to cultivate, not to mention the clearing vast tracts of raw wilderness that included swampland and trees the size of Mac trucks. (This with 16th century tech) Indentured servants from England et al, were dying before their seven years of service was up, from disease starvation and Indian attack. The colonies didn't exist on spit and prayers. They required MASSIVE amounts of cash from somewhere, and that somewhere was over a thousand miles away and took months to make the journey one way. Blacks were landed first by the Dutch, and it was found they could work under the Virginia sun and were resistant to all the fevers and diseases that were killing colonists by thousands. Soon tobacco and later cotton was being produced in record crops that within 100 years had this country thriving. So sad it took slavery to get it done, but it did. As I said before, we should have let the Spanish take it and gone home to England. They would have handled it the way they handled everything south of the border, and no one would have their panties in a wad over it because the South would never had existed.

After all, Southern slavery as practiced by the Confederacy is the ONLY SLAVERY anyone gets in a bunch about.

Gray_Rider
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P.S. Dragoon. I will try to locate the books you have mentioned. I am eager to see their point on the matter, but I think they will have their work cut out for them.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:43   #280
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One other thing Dragoon. Slaves weren't "escaping in droves". The Confederacy would have collapsed overnight if they had. They had their chance for years when every able bodied man available was hundreds of miles away and usualy afoot. Kindly Mr. Lincoln even gave them an engraved invitation to murder their masters and "whitefolks" and it STILL didn't happen. Late in the war, when tens of thousands of square miles of the South was utterly destroyed, their homes and lands laid waste, the slaves came to Union lines. Usually to be ignored, abandoned, or put to work behind Union lines. Many former slaves did take up arms against the South, but that is an other thread.

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