[IlliniGlocker]

Originally Posted by cjlandry

Last time I checked, no one called Germany "the land of the free".

And the slaves certainly looked at the South as just that... the land of the free.

[RustyShackelford]

Originally Posted by ptmccain

So where do you people get your KKK robes dry cleaned?

"What do you mean you people...?"

Originally Posted by Natty

Seen in Vietnam





/RebelFlag.jpg

Well, to be fair, those could have been just some "South will rise again" kinda attitude migration over to that theatre. I mean, they were killing a bunch of folks a different (more savage and inferior?) race than themselves. And embracing each "victory" in the name of the South, no doubt.

[Gray_Rider]

Originally Posted by RustyShackelford

Well, to be fair, those could have been just some "South will rise again" kinda attitude migration over to that theatre. I mean, they were killing a bunch of folks a different (more savage and inferior?) race than themselves. And embracing each "victory" in the name of the South, no doubt.

Government education strikes again!

Read the books. Still waiting.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!

[Mister_Beefy]

anyone I ever met that talked about how great the battle flag is .... was a moron.

I'm not speaking figuratively. I'm mean, they were STUPID, stupid people.

[Fred Hansen]

When I was a kid a famous man looked forward to the day when we would judge a man on the content of his character, rather than the color of his skin. It made sense to me then, as it does now. I've known many good people with the "Stars and Bars" displayed proudly; known some real ****wads too. Just like skin, the color of their flag didn't have **** to do with who they were/are as people.

For those offended by the Confederate flag, here's a little advice: Life is tough, grow a pair, and quit whining. JMO

[HexHead]

Originally Posted by Sam Spade

The only sentence in your post that matters.

First, the Civil War was not fought---on the North's part---to free slaves. It was fought to preserve the "Perpetual Union" that all had voluntarily joined.

Second, the timing of the war was forced by the South, not the North. Hostilities began when the South started shooting. Prior to that act of war/treason/rebellion (you call it), the North offered the Crittenden Compromise, that would have amended the Constitution and given the South almost everything they claimed they wanted. Obviously, it was rejected.

Third, slavery wasn't ended earlier because the South had manipulated the political process, giving themselves undue political power. This is most obvious in the counting of property (slaves) as men for apportionment and representation inN Congress. The 3/5ths compromise wasn't the South keeping blacks down---they wanted their slaves counted as whole men so they could grab more seats in the House, and more votes in the Electoral College. Naturally, your idols balked when it came to giving blacks the other things due to men: that whole Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness thing applied to owners.

For the most part your points are correct. However, Lincoln forced the South's hand into firing upon Fort Sumter. Do you think the South should have allowed another country to maintain a fort behind their lines? Lincoln was warned by Gen. Winfield Scott and other military advisors that the South would attack the fort if it wasn't abandoned. Lincoln responded by sending a ship to resupply the fort. It was the appearance of the supply ship that triggered the South firing the first shot. Lincoln maneuvered them into doing so, knowing he would then get public support for The War Against Secession.

I strongly suggest you read The Real Lincoln by Thomas Dilorenzo.

[TBO]

[Bren]

I'm going off on a tangent.


Does anybody recall 20+ years ago when nobody thought a confederate flag was racist? When it was on kids lunchboxes and the top of the car of their TV heroes and such? When rock stars had rebel flag guitars, even British rock stars, and when I could easily buy a rebel flag or clothes with one, in stores in Europe? When Harley Davidson (from Wisconsin) actually had rebel flags as part of a factory paint scheme. When people wore rebel flag patches on their clothes and thought nothing of it and neither did anybody who saw them?

I just found out a few years ago that a hangman's noose is now considered a racist symbol too.

But the funny part is all the internet folks now who act like we've had that opinion since the civil war.

I'm not inclined to change my opinion to whatever is popular this week.

[RichardB]

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/wp-...of-alabama.jpg

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/201...loosa-burning/

The Confederate Flag became a symbol of southern resistance to Federal efforts to desegregate public schools in the 1950's and continued onward through the entire fight for civil rights. The photo shows confederate flags waving in 1956 when University of Alabama students burn desegregation literature in protest of the enrollment of Autherine Lucy. There are hundreds of these types of photos available on books and magazines of that time frame.

I don't remember the Sons or Daughters of the Confederacy then protesting this use of their flag. So the flag got a bad name. It is not a recent trend. After all the folks who lived thru this era die, then the white wash might be more effective.

[EmbryRiddle]

Originally Posted by RichardB

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/wp-...of-alabama.jpg

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/201...loosa-burning/

The Confederate Flag became a symbol of southern resistance to Federal efforts to desegregate public schools in the 1950's and continued onward through the entire fight for civil rights. The photo shows confederate flags waving in 1956 when University of Alabama students burn desegregation literature in protest of the enrollment of Autherine Lucy. There are hundreds of these types of photos available on books and magazines of that time frame.

I don't remember the Sons or Daughters of the Confederacy then protesting this use of their flag. So the flag got a bad name. It is not a recent trend. After all the folks who lived thru this era die, then the white wash might be more effective.

[Dragoon44]

Do you think the South should have allowed another country to maintain a fort behind their lines?

The state of South Carolina legally transferred the property to the Federal Govt. That would be the SAME State of South Carolina after it supposedly seceded.

So what gives South Carolina the right to take back property it had legally transferred to the United States Govt?

Lincoln was warned by Gen. Winfield Scott and other military advisors that the South would attack the fort if it wasn't abandoned.

So Lincoln should have abandon the fort even though it was legally the property of the federal Govt?

is that how you would act? if you were warned that some folks were coming to take your legally owned property from you then you would abandon it?

It was the appearance of the supply ship that triggered the South firing the first shot.

ummm no, you are confusing the relief ship Lincoln sent (After notifying Gov. Pickens) with the relief ship President Buchanan sent which was fired on.

Jefferson Davis ordered the fort to be taken BEFORE Lincolns resupply ship arrived.

I strongly suggest you read The Real Lincoln by Thomas Dilorenzo.

I would suggest if you run out of toilet paper you use DiLorenzo's book since that is about all it is worth.

[Dragoon44]

The Confederate Flag was the symbol for white supremacy from the beginning.

If you have any doubts feel free to look up what secessionists leaders had to say about why they were seceding.

Start with Alexander Stephens "Cornerstone speech" where he plainly stated that the cornerstone of the Confederacy was.

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

[kat1950]

I fly one in the front of my house right next to the Florida flag and proud of it.

[Bren]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

The Confederate Flag was the symbol for white supremacy from the beginning.

If you have any doubts feel free to look up what secessionists leaders had to say about why they were seceding.

Start with Alexander Stephens "Cornerstone speech" where he plainly stated that the cornerstone of the Confederacy was.

We have made the point, repeatedly, complete with Lincoln quote and the relevant sections of the constitution, that while the confederate flag may have been the symbol of white supremacy, so was the U.S. flag. Even most of those against slavery had attotudes on race that would match up well with the KKK of today.

You seem to be trying to prove the south/southerners were racist - that's true. But so was the north and northerners. First example that comes to mind: New York, 1863 - a draft riot turned into "a virtual racial pogrom, with uncounted numbers of blacks murdered on the streets."

The popular myths may romanticize it today like there was a racist and an anti-racist side to the war, but there was not.

Looping back to my post above - this "confederate flag as a symbol of racism" BS is relatively new, having happened since I was teenager. It certainly isn't something that goes back to the civil war.

[Dragoon44]

We have made the point, repeatedly, complete with Lincoln quote and the relevant sections of the constitution, that while the confederate flag may have been the symbol of white supremacy, so was the U.S. flag. Even most of those against slavery had attotudes on race that would match up well with the KKK of today.

And Stephens in his speech made it clear that the confederacy was the FIRST to make white supremacy the cornerstone of it's Govt.

Here is the bottom line concerning claims of the US flag being racist.

IT was the US and it's flag that prevailed in the conflict. A Conflict that brought about the end of Slavery.

The Confederate Flag represents the side that wanted to perpetuate slavery and even seceded to try and acomplish that goal.

You seem to be trying to prove the south/southerners were racist - that's true. But so was the north and northerners. First example that comes to mind: New York, 1863 - a draft riot turned into "a virtual racial pogrom, with uncounted numbers of blacks murdered on the streets."

Yes Northerners were racist even when they opposed slavery they didn't want free blacks to be living next door to them or even living in their state.

Lincoln in his letter to Stephens pointed out the differences between them was merely that one believed that slavery was wrong and should be done away with and the other thought it was right should be continued. Not that one was a racist and the other wasn't.

this "confederate flag as a symbol of racism" BS is relatively new, having happened since I was teenager. It certainly isn't something that goes back to the civil war.

Obviously it isn't new Stephens speech, the speeches of other secessionists, the articles of secession and the speeches of the secession commissioners proves it isn't new. The only thing that "might" be new is increased awareness by minorities as to what the flag stood for. that wasn't being proclaimed in the more recent past.

[EmbryRiddle]

Originally Posted by Bren

We have made the point, repeatedly, complete with Lincoln quote and the relevant sections of the constitution, that while the confederate flag may have been the symbol of white supremacy, so was the U.S. flag. Even most of those against slavery had attotudes on race that would match up well with the KKK of today.

You seem to be trying to prove the south/southerners were racist - that's true. But so was the north and northerners. First example that comes to mind: New York, 1863 - a draft riot turned into "a virtual racial pogrom, with uncounted numbers of blacks murdered on the streets."

The popular myths may romanticize it today like there was a racist and an anti-racist side to the war, but there was not.

Looping back to my post above - this "confederate flag as a symbol of racism" BS is relatively new, having happened since I was teenager. It certainly isn't something that goes back to the civil war.

I guess then the only conclusion to come to would be, the north saw the error in their ways, and the south wanted to continue their slavery. The same I guess is shown everyday in this country.....

Originally Posted by kat1950

I fly one in the front of my house right next to the Florida flag and proud of it.

[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by kat1950

I fly one in the front of my house right next to the Florida flag and proud of it.

Which part are you most proud of, the secession in general or the treason that Florida committed seizing Govt. forts, arsenals etc even BEFORE Florida seceded.

January 6, 1861: Florida seizes Apalachicola arsenal.
January 7, 1861: Florida seizes Fort Marion.
January 8, 1861: Floridians try to seize Fort Barrancas but are chased off.

January 10, 1861: Florida secedes.

[Dragoon44]

[kat1950]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

Which part are you most proud of, the secession in general or the treason that Florida committed seizing Govt. forts, arsenals etc even BEFORE Florida seceded.

Why don't you take a guess, secession and treason you say *ha ha*, and by the way I am not prejudice against any man, except sensitive little people , who seem to be more prejudice (AntiConfederate)

[EmbryRiddle]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by kat1950

Why don't you take a guess, secession and treason you say *ha ha*, and by the way I am not prejudice against any man, except sensitive little people as yourself, who seem to be more prejudice (AntiConfederate)

Even if you believe that secession was legal you have to face the fact that Florida took up arms against the US Govt. BEFORE it seceded. THAT is treason.

[Bren]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

Even if you believe that secession was legal you have to face the fact that Florida took up arms against the US Govt. BEFORE it seceded. THAT is treason.

Sort of like the colonies taking up arms against our government when we were British?

[Bren]

Originally Posted by EmbryRiddle

I guess then the only conclusion to come to would be, the north saw the error in their ways, and the south wanted to continue their slavery. The same I guess is shown everyday in this country.....

The north continued to have legal slavery before, during and after the civil war, when the south no longer existed. Kentucky was the last place in America to have legal slavery, which continued after the civil war because the emancipation proclamation only freed slaves in places that were rebelling. Its purpose was to creat internal problems in confederate states, not to end slavery. States that didn't officially leave the union had slavery until the 14th Amendment was ratified.

[RichardB]

Originally Posted by Bren

......Looping back to my post above - this "confederate flag as a symbol of racism" BS is relatively new, having happened since I was teenager. It certainly isn't something that goes back to the civil war.

I remember it as a symbol of racisim in the South that I lived in from the 1950's on. Where did you live then? What is new is the current generation of black folks aren't rolling over and taking it quietly anymore.

I'm sure that my late Dad would be upset if he saw a swastika proudly displayed on a neighbor's flagpole. I haven't noticed any symbols of the taliban or al quada displayed around fayetteville recently, wonder why? The confederate flag has the same load.

Your icon is not in BDUs, have you been emancipated?

[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by Bren

Sort of like the colonies taking up arms against our government when we were British?

There is probably little doubt that if the colonials had lost they at least the leaders would have been handled as traitors, even though at the time the actual status of colonials in relation to England was much disputed in England.

Of course one main difference is that the colonials specified their greviences against the king, but the seceding states could not list a cause against the Federal Govt. their listed reasons for secession were all aimed at other states, not the Federal Govt.

One has to wonder though if we had lost and were still part of the English empire would their be organizations promoting Their "US heritage? a Sons of losing colonials, or United Daughters of the defeated?