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Old 06-19-2011, 08:17   #251
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Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
My Great great grandfather was a slave owner. Just before the war he sold his properties, freed his slaves, probably three or four at most, and moved into what is now West Virginia. (Occupied Virginia) He was such a cruel old codger, his slaves asked to stay with him and his family after they were freed. Seems they considered him and he them members of the family. This was more the norm in the old South. Plantation owners made up about 1% of the slave owners though they owned the most slaves. Less than 10% of all Southerners owned slaves to start with. What did the other 90% go to war over?

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So if the Slave owners were such kindly souls and the slaves were "happy, content darkies" ( as the mythology of the lost cause presents them) why were they escaping to the north in droves? Why was one of the chief complaints of the Southern states that the Northern states were not returning their runaway "Property"? and what was up with all those slave rebellions?

Were all slave owners cruel? obviously not, But the "slave" as member of the family was the exception rather than the rule. My own great, great,great grandfather was a slave owner, Court testimony shows he was indeed a "kindly master", When he died his will freed his slaves AND gave them his property. His sons sought to break the will. and court testimony reflected many witnesses, neighbors who stated the old man had never struck one of his slaves nor would he allow another man to do so. It went to court because his eight sons tried to break the will so they could claim the property and sell the slaves. The slave won in a landmark Tennessee Supreme court ruling on the property rights of slaves.


And as for what the non slave owners of the south went to war for, They went to war because they were duped by the elitist slave owning minority that ruled the south. And because many of them were CONSCRIPTED. The Confederacy resorted to conscription even before the North did.

So while the average Southerner who fought may not have been fighting to preserve the institution of slavery, they were indeed doing the bidding of the slave owning elite that rules the south.

And there is also the issue of the massive desertions suffered by the confederacy. We have Lee's letters to Davis in which he states it was an ongoing and very serious problem. In a Letter to Davis on Sept 13, 1862 Lee stated that 1/2 to 1/2 of his army never entered Maryland at all.

He also stated that a great deal of damage was being caused by the deserters, stating, "A great deal of damage done to citizens by the deserters taking all the food from the charitable and taking by force from the defenseless, wantonly destroying stock and property."

Another letter from Lee to Davis, July 27, 1863 After Gettysburg. " "there are many thousands of men improperly absent from this army."
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:30   #252
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The South did not commit treason in leaving the Union.
really? so what do you call it when the States seized Federal property that was LEGALLY the property of the united States?

And with the exception of fort Sumter all the states that seized Union Forts and arsenals did so BEFORE they even seceded.

I think seizing Union property and firing on union ships and ultimately a Union fort counts as BOTH rebellion and treason.

January 3, 1861: Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski.

January 19, 1861: Georgia secedes.

January 4, 1861: Alabama seizes U.S. arsenal at Mount Vernon.
January 5, 1861: Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines.

January 11, 1861: Alabama secedes.

January 6, 1861: Florida seizes Apalachicola arsenal.
January 7, 1861: Florida seizes Fort Marion.
January 8, 1861: Floridians try to seize Fort Barrancas but are chased off.

January 10, 1861: Florida secedes.


January 10, 1861 Louisiana seizes U.S. arsenal at Baton Rouge, as well
as Forts Jackson and St. Philip.
January 11, 1861 Louisiana seizes U.S. Marine Hospital.
January 14, 1861: Louisiana seizes Fort Pike.

January 26, 1861: Louisiana secedes.

February 8, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. Arsenal at Little Rock.
February 12, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. ordnance stores at Napoleon.

May 6, 1861 Arkansas Secedes.
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Old 06-19-2011, 17:08   #253
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Less than 10% of all Southerners owned slaves to start with. What did the other 90% go to war over?

Gotta jump on this, because it's completely true and absolutely misleading. An excellent example of the way that statistics lie to us. First, knock off the 50% of the Southern population that owned nothing and had no say in going to war---women. Then, consider how many Southerners weren't of legal age to own any property---minors. Suddenly, that 10% figure starts to look pretty suspect; manipulated, even.

Instead, go to the 1860 census and see what percentage of *households* owned slaves. That 10% gets tossed and a much more accurate number pops up. No need to take my word for this; UVa has computerized all those census results for us, county-by-county if you like. They're available here: http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/php/state.php

From the 1860 census:
Alabama, 35% of families held slaves.
Virginia, 26%.
Mississippi, 49%.
Florida, 34%.
South Carolina, 46%....

The aggregate in the Confederacy was about one-third. A bit more realistic picture. And when a quarter, a half, of your state's voters own something, the motive for going to war to keep it gets a little clearer.
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Old 06-19-2011, 18:00   #254
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Another issue with secession, only three states put it to a voter referendum, By what right did the legislatures of the other states strip the people of that state of their US citizenship, and remove them and their property from the domain of the US without their consent?
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Old 06-20-2011, 18:06   #255
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Some reading on what the South was saying, from the guys who were actually saying it in 1860, and why and how those "90%" were persuaded to fight. He also touches on the flag and symbolism thing that started the thread in the following address to the Charleston Library Society.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...veholding.html

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There you have it. The reasons that Southerners gave their fellow Southerners for Secession – from the pulpit, from their political and community leaders, in their reading material. There was much more – I haven’t discussed newspapers yet -- but the message was the same...Our ancestors were unapologetic about why they wanted to secede; it is up to us to take them at their word and to dispassionately form our own judgments about their actions.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:03   #256
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My Great great grandfather was a slave owner. Just before the war he sold his properties, freed his slaves, probably three or four at most, and moved into what is now West Virginia. (Occupied Virginia) He was such a cruel old codger, his slaves asked to stay with him and his family after they were freed. Seems they considered him and he them members of the family. ......

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This may not apply in your GGF's situation and we will never know, but frequently slaves were family ( brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews, children or grandchildren).

Thomas Jefferson's arrangement was not the only one of its kind and in tough times family counts for something.

Does your family history say why he freed the slaves at that time?
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:37   #257
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And how many of us Northern European DNA holders had ancestors who slaved for some Lord as serfs and servents. Remember your history, it was Africans who sold their brothers into Slavery, they didn't just run down to the beach saying "Whes de boat"?
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Old 06-21-2011, 14:19   #258
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If Slavery was justifiable then why did the confederates AFTER they lost try to distance themselves from it? Their statements BEFORE and during the war leaves not doubt why they seceded. Their leaders statements, their articles of secession, The speeches and letters of the Secession Commissioners plainly state the reason for secession was to protect, defend, and expand the institution of slavery.

After the war they attempted to distance themselves from slavery and rewrite the reasons for the secession. Their apologists today continue in that tradition. continuing and promoting the spurious history of the "Lost cause", claiming that slavery was not the central issue of secession and promoting the lie that the south tried to "peacefully" secede.
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Old 06-21-2011, 17:59   #259
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I said that the Confederate flag does not stand for racism in todays world. Sure some people use it like that, but it doesnt mean that everyone that has a Confederate flag is racist. It is still part of the Georgia State Flag. Ultimately it is just a flag/symbol it can mean any number of things to different people.

I agree that it has a bad rep due to the racist groups such as the KKK, but to me it is just a symbol. I am still proud that they fought for what they beleived in.

And not trying to argue with you, because I have respect for you. But the part about the South committed treason, that is very much correct. But America committed treason against Great Brittan by signing the declaration of independence, and the revolutionary war.
Where are all the people flying the Great Brittan flag with the American flag?
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Old 06-22-2011, 18:40   #260
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So you have departed trying to argue FACTS concerning what secession was about and instead are going to defend slavery as a legitimate institution.

In the story above your father is not quite a slave, he could have left traveled elsewhere and sought other work. a Slave did not have that right.

Now I said not quite a slave, because he had choices, but I would agree that the mine owners reflect the southern aristocracy (Slave owners) that ruled the South for many generations. IN the south poor whites were barely above enslaved blacks on the social scale.

Traditionally the South was one of the LEAST democratic areas of the Country.
All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt. It clouds your reasoning. Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES. From the lowly to the landed. That means NOTHING to you. Let them die and decrease the surplus population I suppose. I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did. How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers? Tobacco and Cotton was the only cash for decades and black, (free yes there were hundreds and slave, and white!!!!??) labor, produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars. The South is your eternal boogie man. I'm sad you have bought the Kool Aid and drank it.
If we evil Southerners took care of our slaves as you think we did, the Confederacy wouldn't have lasted a month. We should have sailed back to England and let the kindly Spainards have it all.

Your beloved Union got EXACTLY what it bought and paid for.

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Old 06-22-2011, 18:49   #261
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All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt. It clouds your reasoning. Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES. From the lowly to the landed. That means NOTHING to you. Let them die and decrease the surplus population I suppose. I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did. How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers? Tobacco and Cotton was the only cash for decades and black, (free yes there were hundreds and slave, and white!!!!??) labor, produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars. The South is your eternal boogie man. I'm sad you have bought the Kool Aid and drank it.
If we evil Southerners took care of our slaves as you think we did, the Confederacy wouldn't have lasted a month. We should have sailed back to England and let the kindly Spainards have it all.

Your beloved Union got EXACTLY what it bought and paid for.

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....I guess anybody can find a justification for anything nowadays.....
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Old 06-22-2011, 18:52   #262
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This may not apply in your GGF's situation and we will never know, but frequently slaves were family ( brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews, children or grandchildren).

Thomas Jefferson's arrangement was not the only one of its kind and in tough times family counts for something.

Does your family history say why he freed the slaves at that time?

If you are referring to mulattoes; Yes, there was 'family' of that sort. BUT.
As the books I have recommended prove, white on black sexual mingling was more prevailent in the North. Slaves were often counted as family. They often lived and died for generations with the same people. They helped raise the children, cook the food, bring in the harvest that they all shared etc. and were members of thousands of white families all their lives. Many died or were maimed defending their owner's property, from their Union chainbreakers. I'm tired of beating a rotten horse here. READ THE BOOKS I HAVE RECOMMENDED. Then come talk to me.

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Old 06-22-2011, 19:36   #263
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My Great Grandfather freed his slaves before the war, and they asked to stay with him. They were his family as much as he was theirs. They were a part of his family for decades. He was a good master and a good man. He was later involved in what was known as "The Burning". The destruction of the Shenandoah Valley by the kindly Union troops, that left thousands of innocent civilians, black and white, murdered, maimed, and destitute much like Sherman's march in the South. Show me 1/1000th of that kind of damage ANYWHERE by Confederate troops. Show me ANYTHING done to the slaves in the South that even comes close. Show me the graves dug up, and the corpses robbed. Show me Union dead that were desecrated as Southern corpses were. Show me the church pews burned as campfire wood. Show me the weeping orphans and destitute Union women. The starving enfebeled. The sick. The old left to die with their homes and lands ravaged. SHOW ME!
What is overlooked and ignored was that thousands of slaves had been freed over the years in the South and more were being freed every year. Again, this is covered in great detail in the books listed by me. To date. NO ONE has taken ANY statement in ANY book I have recomended to task. I think that has some merit just on it's own.

I will not have the South remembered for a pack of Union lies. I used to believe those lies. My Great Grandfather was a Union soldier, but I have distant relatives that fought with the Moccasin Rangers. I will NEVER join the GAR or any group honoring the Union or the men who fought for it. I am however joining the Sons of Confederate Veterans as soon as I get some papers in order for a proper search. Sadly, I don't speak for all Southerners. I speak for me and the brave Confederate dead that died for the Constutional Government Lincoln destroyed.

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Old 06-22-2011, 19:39   #264
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....I guess anybody can find a justification for anything nowadays.....

Yes Embry. We should have just starved and lived in manure huts.

Unbelieveable.
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:41   #265
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Yes Embry. We should have just starved and lived in manure huts.

Unbelieveable.

Yea, its unbelievable how far off your moral compass is.....
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:42   #266
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Prove ONE statement WRONG Embry. Please.

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Old 06-22-2011, 19:45   #267
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All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt.
Then you need glasses, I have no "white guilt" I am the direct descendant of a man that came to this country in 1630's as an indentured servant. And yes my ancestors had slaves. Though they got out of the slave owning business in 1843.

Guilt? that is hilarious, why should I feel guilty? My great-great-great grandfathers slaves not only got their freedom they got his property as well. My idiot ancestors (G__G_Grandfathers sons) who were well to do bankrupted themselves trying to break their fathers will so they could have his property and sell his slaves. They lost.

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Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES.
So if slavery was so vital a necessity in the 1700's how it is that so many states abolished it or passed legislation of gradual emancipation? However did the poor settlers of the Northwest territory survive since slavery was banned there? If your bogus (and regurgitated) neo confederate claims were tru none of the settlers in the free states could have possibly survived.

Slavery in the south was on the wane until the invention of the cotton Gin. So it was not "survival" that caused the South to cling so fiercely to slavery, it was PROFIT.

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I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did.
False, the use of indentured servants worked, but indentured servants got their freedom within 4 to 7 years. So indentured servants were less profitable than slaves which you never had to free and they also reproduced giving you more slaves to work or sell.

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How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers?
Maybe you should ask that question of the settlers of the northwest territories and the free states ow they managed to not only survive, but thrive without slavery. According to you that should not have been possible.

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produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars.
Actually that was the claim of the early neo confederates, that slavery freed the whites from labor and allowed them to develop and maintain their "superior" culture.


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The South is your eternal boogie man.
I am willing to bet my family has been inn the south as long if not longer than your own. it's been some 380 years for my family.

The difference between us is I see the confederates for what they were and have not swallowed the "lost cause" kool aid which appears to be your favorite beverage.
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:52   #268
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I speak for me and the brave Confederate dead that died for the Constutional Government Lincoln destroyed.
What a load of neo confederate crap, the lie that the south fought for "freedom and liberty" is what they claimed AFTER they lost. and started promulgating the myth of the "Lost cause". because they didn't want history to remember them as the traitors they were.

Post all the BS neo confederate claims you like, I will rebutt with the statements and speeches of the southern leaders, their articles of secession, and the letters and speeches of the secession commissioners. it is all in the historical record and it plainly states WHY the south seceded, and it wasn't for freedom and liberty.

What a mockery, they fought for the "freedom and Liberty" to enslave others.
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:53   #269
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Just read the books Dragoon. Then come talk to me. No one has called them or the facts therein into account here yet. I'm still waiting. Again I say. Nowhere is slavery villified but here in America; and only when the South depended on it and the North made hundreds of millions bringing slaves here and millions more in their cotton mills and tobacco sales all over Europe and America. No other slavery matters does it?

As the punchline to an old joke goes....YOU know!

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Old 06-22-2011, 20:04   #270
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Just read the books Dragoon. Then come talk to me. No one has called them into account here yet. I'm still waiting.

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You have been making your arguments primarily from Thomas DiLorenzo's and other libertarian/neo confederates writings and your arguments have been met and refuted.

I'll point you to some books,

The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: The "Great Truth" about the "Lost Cause"
James W. Loewen Editor

Apostles of Disunion- The letters and speeches of the secession commissioners
Charles Dew
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Old 06-22-2011, 20:45   #271
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Again I say. Nowhere is slavery villified but here in America;
while not entirely accurate,( England outlawed slavery in 1833) I would point out that only in america was a government instituted that declared,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The confederates detested the Declaration because of that passage.
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:21   #272
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We actually have someone defending slavery?

We actually have someone defending slavery.

What a wretched excuse for morality! What twisted soul could imagine such, would cling so fiercely to an imagined time past that he would embrace such an obscenity? Even the institution's benefactors and beneficiaries were smart enough to turn their public face away from the horrid thing when they lost. Maybe they realized that God did indeed vindicate---only it wasn't their prayer that was granted.
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:36   #273
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We actually have someone defending slavery?

We actually have someone defending slavery.

What a wretched excuse for morality! What twisted soul could imagine such, would cling so fiercely to an imagined time past that he would embrace such an obscenity? Even the institution's benefactors and beneficiaries were smart enough to turn their public face away from the horrid thing when they lost. Maybe they realized that God did indeed vindicate---only it wasn't their prayer that was granted.

LoL, not just defending it, but embracing it.....
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:11   #274
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We actually have someone defending slavery?
And all in the name of "liberty and freedom" no less.
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:28   #275
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All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt. It clouds your reasoning. Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES. From the lowly to the landed. That means NOTHING to you. Let them die and decrease the surplus population I suppose. I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did. How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers? Tobacco and Cotton was the only cash for decades and black, (free yes there were hundreds and slave, and white!!!!??) labor, produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars. The South is your eternal boogie man. I'm sad you have bought the Kool Aid and drank it.
If we evil Southerners took care of our slaves as you think we did, the Confederacy wouldn't have lasted a month. We should have sailed back to England and let the kindly Spainards have it all.

Your beloved Union got EXACTLY what it bought and paid for.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
This pretty much sums up the discussion of why the flag is hated by some and loved to death by others....
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