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Old 04-27-2010, 16:24   #1
9mmasta
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.357 Sig vs. 10mm Is there a clear winner?

I visited the LGS today just to shoot the breeze talk to the guy there and just see if there was anything there that tickled my fancy. I got to talking to a guy I respect a lot and feel is extremely knowledgeable about handguns and now I want to bounce some things off you guys (the other experts).

My current CCW/Woods/SHTF gun is a Glock 29. Today, after talking to the guy and hearing a bit more about the .357 Sig (which is the ONLY caliber he will carry EVER!) I'm interested to hear how great this caliber really is. Here's what I was told and have found after tooling around on the internet the past couple hours:

1. More accurate
2. HIGH velocity
3. MASSIVE wound channel
4. DEEP penetration

I'm not sure if that's all the pluses to this round or not, but another thing I want to add that is in its favor as well is size of the handgun platform. I held the Glock 32 today and the size difference is EXTREMELY noticeable and I preferred the G32 over my G29 I was carrying!

So I would like to know what the pros and cons are of these 2 incredible rounds and hopefully after getting schooled I will be able to decide whether I should keep what I got or trade for the other.

Any and all information is welcome!
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Old 04-27-2010, 16:43   #2
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For starters I don't give too much credit to ballistic testing. It's too sterile of an environment. That being said it is still a good way to begin researching a round. I have seen test results of various handgun rounds, and the 357 sig doesn't impress me. It has the same or even less penetration as the 9, 40, and 45 depending on the weight of bullet used. It has a smaller or similar wound channel as the 9mm. These tests are with standerd loads, not +p in the 9 or 45. I'm sure someone will have seen completely different results, that's the nature of ballistic testing. I think the 40 and 45 are much better rounds. The heavier ones have planty of penetration, and they make larger holes. Besides, with the 40 you get the same size weapon and magazine capacity with a larger and heavier bullet.
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Old 04-27-2010, 17:02   #3
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Sterile environment ballistic gel test:

Caliber Corner
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Old 04-27-2010, 17:06   #4
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I guess what got me to thinking was that right now I carry a .40 caliber (the real version) and what draws me to the .357 Sig is the opportunity for increased accuracy, the same extreme velocity, deep penetration the 10mm I have currently provides me with and all in a much SMALLER/comfortable/more concealable package. I have seen what sort of tissue damage the Sig round can do verses a 124gr 9mm and I think with the increased velocity it stands to reason that the .357 Sig is a more devastating bullet.

I checked out Buffalo Bore's offerings and here's what they got:

Quote:
Heavy 357 Sig. Low Flash Pistol and Handgun Ammo - 125 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,425fps/M.E. 564 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

Because you requested it, Buffalo Bore is now producing two full power 357 Sig. loads. These loads are full power 357 Sig. Not the watered down stuff that other factories are already producing. Why is it that a new cartridge gets developed with touted ballistics in the media, only to have the ammo manufacturers "water" it down after a few years on the market? (The same thing happened with the original 10MM) The 357 Sig. was designed to blast a 125gr. bullet at 1,425 FPS out of a four inch carry gun barrel. (Not a much longer test barrel) So, that is what both our loadings do.

We use flash suppressed powder so that you wont be blinded by your own gun fire should you be required to drop the hammer in low light. Since over 90% of civilian shootings in America happen in low light, flash suppressed ammunition is a huge tactical advantage.

Item 25A utilizes the 125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point bullet. It is designed to open radically and penetrate roughly 12 to 14 inches in human tissue. Note my velocities from my real world pistol, (not a test barrel) below.

a. Sig. Mod. 229, 4 inch barrel - 1,430 fps (567 ft. lbs.)

Item 25B utilizes a 124gr. FMJ flat nose bullet at 1,425 fps. This bullet will smash through typical stick frame walls, car doors and a bears skull or shoulder bones. It is designed for those who need deep penetration. It should penetrate 24+ inches in human tissue. If I were carrying a 357 Sig. for defense, I would carry my pistol with our 125gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) loaded in the chamber and the top 4 or 5 rounds in the magazine. The remaining rounds in the magazine would be these FMJ flat nose loads. Why? After the first few rounds are fired in a fight, most opponents will be dead or behind cover. The FMJ flat nose loads will penetrate many types of cover that would stop a hollow nose bullet. Note my velocities, from my real world pistol, (not a test barrel) below.

a. Sig. Mod. 229, 4 inch barrel - 1,433 fps (575 ft. lbs.)

Last edited by 9mmasta; 04-27-2010 at 17:07..
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Old 04-27-2010, 17:24   #5
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Everything is a trade off/compromise. I carry both, but most of the time it is the .357 sig. I have found the G32 and G29 to be similar in accuracy and are very close in size with the 29 being a bit wider. Capacity goes to the 32. My real deciding factor is contollability. I can get faster and more accurate follow up shots with the 32. On a more subjective note, I figure that if the .357 sig is good enough for the TX DPS then it must have something going for it!
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Old 04-27-2010, 17:30   #6
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I'm going to try and get a few different offerings for my G33 this summer when I'm done coaching ball for a while and see how they do on the chrony and against some barrier test. I know from testing my Sig 229 357sig against my Sig 226 9mm that the 357 GDHP made much larger holes and a good bit deeper penetration than my Cor Bon 9mm and it clocked even with Fed .357 mag from my Ruger. From the field reports I've seen I have no desire to carry anything else....but I do want a G29 in case I am attacked by Zombies in an M1Abrams.
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Old 04-27-2010, 17:30   #7
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Push a 155gr JHP @ 1400fps & things start getting interesting. That is about as fast as most 357sig ammo goes w/ a lighter bullet, less momentum, same SD. Plus the 10mm can push a 200gr JHP @ 1200fps, much deeper penetrating than a 125gr 9mm. Of course recoil is higher but if you can shoot it, I think the 10mm has a clear advantage as a woods round. Then again, I would carry a 4" 44mag & not even think twice.
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Last edited by fredj338; 04-27-2010 at 17:31..
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Old 04-27-2010, 17:32   #8
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My real deciding factor is contollability. I can get faster and more accurate follow up shots with the 32
Having never shot .357 Sig how does it stack up recoil/snapwise against the 10mm? You say you can control it better, so I'm assuming there's MUCH less muzzle flip with this round, but how much less are we talking? Is it down to .40S&W snap or even less? Thanks for the help guys =) Keep it coming!
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Old 04-27-2010, 17:40   #9
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A little Google time and you could answer your own question.
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Old 04-27-2010, 18:11   #10
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The goal of the .357 SIG project was to offer a level of performance equal to the highly effective 125 grains (8.1 g) .357 Magnum load. The .357 SIG accomplishes this with a 125 grains (8.1 g) bullet at a muzzle velociy of 1,450 feet per second (440 m/s) out of a 4 in (102 mm) barrel, which is generally identical to the velocity achieved by standard factory 125 grains (8.1 g) .357 Magnum loads out of a 4 in (102 mm) revolver barrel.
*Thank you Wikipedia
It appears that the loadings have gotten less intense since its introduction back in 1994 like what the guys at Buffalo Bore said... What major ammunition manufacturer can you buy a 125gr bullet that gets pushed at 1450fps...?
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Old 04-27-2010, 18:43   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmasta View Post
It appears that the loadings have gotten less intense since its introduction back in 1994 like what the guys at Buffalo Bore said... What major ammunition manufacturer can you buy a 125gr bullet that gets pushed at 1450fps...?
Well if my handloads were for sale you could break 1500 out of a sig 229 but I wouldnt want to take on the liability of someone having a KB. BB, Double Tap, and corbon are the way to go if you want performance in the 357 sig.
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Old 04-27-2010, 18:51   #12
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Well if my handloads were for sale you could break 1500 out of a sig 229
I will be reloading if I go with this round and it will be getting shot out of the Glock 32 (4.02'' barrel) so I'm guessing similar velocities would be available...? Would you tell me your recipe and I could load my own releasing you of any liability? Sort of a "load at your own risk" kind of thing...? What type/size bullet do you use for this loading and what is the reason for the round... target/SD/Woods/something else?

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corbon are the way to go if you want performance in the 357 sig
What are the reasons for this? Are you talking the DPX rounds or a different HP?
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Old 04-27-2010, 19:54   #13
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.357sig is nice, but it ain't no 10mm. 767ft lbs from DT's website with a 135grn bullet or reload data pushing that same bullet to 750ft lbs outta the g29 with 800X. Or how bout almost 1000ft lbs from a 6" bbl with that bullet weight? Of course the energy will go down as the bullet weight goes up since you are robbing the case of it's capacity... but you get the picture.
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Old 04-27-2010, 19:56   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmasta View Post
I visited the LGS today...

My current CCW/Woods/SHTF gun...
What, pray tell, is an 'LGS'?

What's a 'SHTF' gun?

------------------------------------

I too am seriously considering a couple guns in 357 Sig. One would be the G32, exactly what you're considering for a carry gun. The other is a Lone Wolf 357 Sig barrel for my 40-cal. G35.

Seems there are several great PD bullets available; if I buy a G32, I'll start with the 124g. Hornady XTP (just $14.19/100 at Midway right now) and also the more-expensive Speer 125g. GD (about $20/100). AA#9 seems to be the high-velocity powder of choice, while I'll start with LongShot since I have a bunch.
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Old 04-27-2010, 20:03   #15
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you need the right tool for the right job

The 10mm is more versatile, so if you're looking for a woods gun as well as something for CCW, it's a really good choice. With all the varying bullet weights & velocities it's easy to find just the right thing for your need.

The 357sig is more of a '1 trick pony', but it's definitely a horse that I want (& have) in my stable. It's well suited to CCW or LEO use, especially in a Glock. Recoil is always more of a personal thing, but IMO it feels like a hot 9mm: I feel it more in the palm of my shooting hand, vs. say a 40sw, that seems to have more of a muzzle flip. The 357sig's accuracy is awesome. It's definitely a flat shooter, so if you do any long distance shooting, this caliber is for you.
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Old 04-27-2010, 21:16   #16
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What, pray tell, is an 'LGS'?
Local Gun Shop
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What's a 'SHTF' gun?
S*** Hits The Fan
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Old 04-27-2010, 22:14   #17
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The 9mm and 357SIG both produce roughly identical permanent wound cavities. The 357SIG causes a more violent TC.

The 10mm produces a larger wound cavity than both, and is capable of even larger TC's with faster loads.

In shooting water-jugs with 9mm 124+P GDHP from a P226, and the 125gr TX DPS 357SIG load from a P226, penetration in water jugs is identical.

Penetration in phone-books soaked for a few hours in water favored the 357SIG by a couple inches or so. The .45 was bested by 1-1.5" by the 9mm, which was bested by about 1" by the 357SIG LP loading, which was bested by about 1-1.5" by the TX DPS loading. All loads were with GDHP. THe .45 was fired from a 5" barreled 1911, the others by a P226 SIG (2 different SIGs).

Penetration in pine boards heavily favored the 357SIG round vs. the .45 and 9mm.

Penetration in water-jugs favored the .45 230gr GDHP, however, the margin is unsure as 1 of the jugs was hit in the upper/thinner portion where the handle cut-out is (Milk Jugs), so I don't want to make that claim hard and fast as I didn't back it up with another test.

Penetration on steel (car doors) in my testing greatly favors the SIG round.

My P226 with a trigger-job reliably shoots 1-1.5" 5-shot groups at 25 yards using the TX DPS 357SIG loading fired by hand from a sand-bag.

LGS's are full of BSers.

*I have seen gel testing of the 357SIG indicate it will penetrate nearly 2x 24" in gel using FMJ. Further, I don't know about a bear's skull or shoulder. Angle, build of the bear, a lot of factors go into that. It's like saying "This guy here, if he punches someone, he is going to knock them out"...well...maybe.

*Phone book testing, penetration described above in text.
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TX DPS load, LP load, 9mm 124+P, .45 230gr.

Last edited by N/Apower; 04-27-2010 at 22:29..
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Old 04-27-2010, 22:35   #18
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Quote:
*I have seen gel testing of the 357SIG indicate it will penetrate nearly 2x 24" in gel using FMJ. Further, I don't know about a bear's skull or shoulder. Angle, build of the bear, a lot of factors go into that. It's like saying "This guy here, if he punches someone, he is going to knock them out"...well...maybe.
Could you point in the direction of the test you're referring to? I understand that most claims are purely hypothetical and that it's mostly a relative statement where I have to take the average (person, bear, cougar, etc) and figure that must be what they're talking about - OR - conduct my own personal tests to find out what's true.

On a side note... I realize most gun shop guys would be considered less than trustworthy, but I know this guy is legit.

Last edited by 9mmasta; 04-27-2010 at 22:40..
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Old 04-27-2010, 22:45   #19
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Originally Posted by 9mmasta View Post
Could you point in the direction of the test you're referring to? I understand that most claims are purely hypothetical and that it's mostly a relative statement where I have to take the average (person, bear, cougar, etc) and figure that must be what they're talking about - OR - conduct my own personal tests to find out what's true.

On a side note... I realize most gun shop guys would be considered less than trustworthy, but I know this guy is legit.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunitio...01/index1.html

54" of gel and then some.

Last edited by N/Apower; 04-27-2010 at 22:46..
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Old 04-27-2010, 23:34   #20
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I'm thinking I really like the penetration advantage that the .357 Sig has over what I've heard about the 10mm. I think it'd make a really nice woods gun and the with the lighter recoil I would probably like it more too. I will be loading my own stuff so I'm not worried about that part of things at all. 54+'' of penetration is INCREDIBLE and a MAJOR selling point for me!
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