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Old 03-15-2010, 09:27   #1
cowboy1964
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What was the original bullet weight the 9mm was designed for?

I think the 9mm was designed for 112-115gr bullets? Does this explain why pretty much all range ammo is 115gr? In other calibers range ammo is usually also the weight the original cartridge was designed for (180gr for .40S&W, 230gr for .45ACP, etc).

I've seen some people recommend practicing with the same bullet weight as what you carry. That's hard to do if you carry 147gr 9mm.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:57   #2
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For the first part of your question…

I've seen anything from 115-124 Grain ammunition. I cannot tell you for sure what the "Official" design weight was. I believe it to be 116 FMJTC. But I could be wrong.

The second part of your question…This is just purely opinion of course…

I believe they use the 115 Gr. bullets because it saves them on cost and materials in the long run. But like I said, it's purely speculation on my part.

Edited for the third part…

You should try out a couple different weights of bullets. Get the weight that best mimics your you carry round. For me, I've found that the 115 Gr. FMJ load I use for the range closely mimics my SD load…Ranger 127 Gr. +P+. POA/POI/Recoil/Speed of follow up shots…they are all the same. I have the same results for 147 Gr. ammunition as well.

Last edited by SIGShooter; 03-15-2010 at 10:09..
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:59   #3
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Also called the 9mm Luger, the 9mm Parabellum was introduced in 1902 in the Luger automatic pistol. In 1904 it became the official military cartridge of the German navy, and two years later was adopted by the German army. In 1985, United States military forces discontinued the use of the long favored Model 1911 Colt in .45 ACP and adopted the Beretta Model 92-F in 9mm Parabellum. Whether this represents a step forward or backward for the U.S. fighting man will long be debated.

Of all the cartridges designed for autoloading pistols and submachine guns during this century, the 9mm Parabellum is by far the most popular. During the past few years, a number of U.S. law enforcement agencies swapped revolvers in .357 Magnum and .38 Special for high capacity 9mm autoloaders, but the jury is still out on just how good the cartridge is for the application. The FBI had adopted the 9mm, but after its alleged failure to perform as expected, replaced it with the more modern, more powerful 10mm cartridge. If anything good can be said of the 9mm Parabellum, it is the fact that most shooters should be able to shoot it more accurately then is possible with more powerful cartridges.

The groove diameter of the 9mm Parabellum barrels vary considerably, a condition that usually presents no particular problem to the handloader who sticks with jacketed bullets. But when loading cast or swaged lead bullets, best accuracy will be realized if they are extremely hard and their diameters closely match the groove diameter of a particular barrel. Excellent propellants for the 9mm include HP38 and HS6.
Source: Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:10   #4
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They go as high as 145 - 147grain, but those were designed for Submachine guns and "supposedly" do poorly in handguns, but I have not tested that theory.
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:10   #5
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Originally Posted by Blitzer View Post
9mm Luger (9mm Parabellum)
[URL="http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p9lug.html"][U][/I]

I don't get it…

Unless you're missing part of your quote, it really doesn't answer any questions. Just thought I'd point that out to ya.
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:13   #6
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Originally Posted by cyrsequipment View Post
They go as high as 145 - 147grain, but those were designed for Submachine guns and "supposedly" do poorly in handguns, but I have not tested that theory.

Yes, I know they go as high as 158 Grain loadings.

But that wasn't the question. What weight was the 9MM originally designed around? It wasn't designed around 145-147 grain loads.
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:14   #7
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Originally Posted by SIGShooter View Post
Yes, I know they go as high as 158 Grain loadings.

But that wasn't the question. What weight was the 9MM originally designed around? It wasn't designed around 145-147 grain loads.
Sheesh, don't get "testy".....
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:21   #8
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Originally Posted by cyrsequipment View Post
Sheesh, don't get "testy".....

You said testy, that's funny!



I was just pointing out the obvious is all. Have a great day!
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:28   #9
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old information is old information. if we were still using the same powders and pressures as 100 years ago i can maybe see using what it was originally designed for. but we dont. and it has been very well documented that there are a many different bullets out there that work well. whether they are 147, 124 or 115gr. bullet design is the important variable here.

anyone who says 147s dont work out of pistols, please state your source as to what 147gr JHP loads are not recommended for use out of pistols. something within the past 10 years would be outstanding.

i know of not one manufacturer that its current gen 147gr JHP loads arent recommended for pistols. and i have the FBI protocol testing to back that up. so please post if you have verifiable information to the contrary.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:39   #10
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If find the heavier grain 147 Speer hollowpoint less accurate at greater distances and the lighter loads (115) more accurate. At close range and in self defense I would prefer the heavier load.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:39   #11
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Originally Posted by cyrsequipment View Post
They go as high as 145 - 147grain, but those were designed for Submachine guns and "supposedly" do poorly in handguns, but I have not tested that theory.
Clem,

Notice the quotation marks... notice the word supposedly... notice the word THEORY... another one getting "testy"
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Old 03-15-2010, 14:09   #12
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I have read many times that the 9mm was designed as a 124gr bullet and thus the many military traditions with that bullet weight. Bill.
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Old 03-15-2010, 14:26   #13
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I have read many times that the 9mm was designed as a 124gr bullet and thus the many military traditions with that bullet weight. Bill.
This is my understanding also.
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Old 03-15-2010, 14:31   #14
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I've always thought it was 124 as well, but I have absolutely nothing to back that up.
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Old 03-15-2010, 17:34   #15
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As designed and loaded for Georg Luger by DWM (Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken), the bullet was an 8g (123gr.) 278F Flachspitzengeschob (conical point solid) bullet loaded into the 480C Parabellum cartridge case.
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Old 03-15-2010, 18:39   #16
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Originally Posted by Clem Eastwood View Post
old information is old information. if we were still using the same powders and pressures as 100 years ago i can maybe see using what it was originally designed for. but we dont. and it has been very well documented that there are a many different bullets out there that work well. whether they are 147, 124 or 115gr. bullet design is the important variable here.

anyone who says 147s dont work out of pistols, please state your source as to what 147gr JHP loads are not recommended for use out of pistols. something within the past 10 years would be outstanding.

i know of not one manufacturer that its current gen 147gr JHP loads arent recommended for pistols. and i have the FBI protocol testing to back that up. so please post if you have verifiable information to the contrary.
cyrsequipment is on the right track regarding 145-147gr bullets in 9mm.

The development of the 147JHP was specifically for the SEALs. They required and requested the development of a JHP bullet for long distance accuracy out of suppressed MP5 subguns.

Winchester designed a 140JHP designated the Type-B. This weight didn't work so they upped the weight to 145 grains (still called the Type-B). Final weight was settled at 147 grains and designated Type-L Olin Super Match (OSM).

The 147JHP OSM load was designed for a specific task for a specific end-user. It was never designed as a Law Enforcement duty/self-defense handgun load.
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Old 03-15-2010, 20:08   #17
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
cyrsequipment is on the right track regarding 145-147gr bullets in 9mm.

The development of the 147JHP was specifically for the SEALs. They required and requested the development of a JHP bullet for long distance accuracy out of suppressed MP5 subguns.

Winchester designed a 140JHP designated the Type-B. This weight didn't work so they upped the weight to 145 grains (still called the Type-B). Final weight was settled at 147 grains and designated Type-L Olin Super Match (OSM).

The 147JHP OSM load was designed for a specific task for a specific end-user. It was never designed as a Law Enforcement duty/self-defense handgun load.
so are you saying that current gen 147gr JHPs are not an effective SD load in pistols? because what it was designed for and what a RA9T or 147gr GD will do are two different things.
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Old 03-15-2010, 22:00   #18
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
As designed and loaded for Georg Luger by DWM (Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken), the bullet was an 8g (123gr.) 278F Flachspitzengeschob (conical point solid) bullet loaded into the 480C Parabellum cartridge case.
I've also read that the original 9mm caliber bullet was 123-grain.
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Old 03-15-2010, 22:15   #19
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I don't think the 9mm Luger is the same as the 9mm Parabellum. I know this because back when I used to work the sporting goods department at wal-mart, I used to sell 9mm Luger and 9mm parabellum and one time I opened both boxes and compared them side by side as per a customer's request who was seeking to buy the proper ammo for his new gun. The parabellum is a tad longer and pointier. I don't remember if the case was longer as well.
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Old 03-15-2010, 22:40   #20
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Originally Posted by fgutie35 View Post
I don't think the 9mm Luger is the same as the 9mm Parabellum. I know this because back when I used to work the sporting goods department at wal-mart, I used to sell 9mm Luger and 9mm parabellum and one time I opened both boxes and compared them side by side as per a customer's request who was seeking to buy the proper ammo for his new gun. The parabellum is a tad longer and pointier. I don't remember if the case was longer as well.
It's the same round; 9X19, Luger, Parabellum, all the same. You may have seen diff bullets loaded, but the cartridge is the same. Most historical info states an 8g bullet (approx 124gr). Everyting from 90gr-147gr are/have been loaded for pistol ammo.
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